Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[DownUndaCanuck]

6 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Based on what exactly?

 

0 points in 3 games?  

 

Matthews a supposed generational talent only has 2 points in 2 games.  Debrincat 0 points.  Sanheim, McKeown, Fleury, Hickey, Perlini all 0 points.

 

Stop putting so much emphasis on a frigging WJC.  Especially over 3 games.  This does not now nor has it EVER dictated what kind of career a player will have.  The amount of players who have lit up the WJC only to do less than nothing in their careers is massive.  

 

So if you're concerned, I for am happy.  It gives you something to do besides post endless line and defensive pairings.

 

But this is for everyone.  If you're basing a barely 19 year old kids entire career off of 3 whole games in the WJC, less than 40 games in the NHL than you need to go find a frigging hobby.

 

In fact, here's some fun stats.  75 games played, 12 goals, 21 assists -10.  This player was famously quoted as being a waste for his supposed skill and was almost traded halfway through his rookie season for a skilled Islander.

 

Props to you if you can guess the player, bigger props if you got to watch his rookie season.  And further props if you understand the point  am trying to make.

 

Simply put, if you think 3 WJC games will tell you everything about a players career, you're the exact kind of guy who was happy with the Hodgson/Schroeder picks as well right?

I never said 3 games determines a players career, don't just extrapolate that out of nothing. That's a rediculous remark to make.

What I am saying is that Jake has 0 points in 3 games. You can't deny that's underperforming.

I judge Jake and his play on a game by game basis individually and don't make any assumptions about his career because no one knows which way it's going to go. For the most part, probability states that he's going to end up a top-6 powerforward in the NHL for a long time. It's pretty unlikely he becomes a bust.

I'm just saying that 0 points in 3 games is pathetic for someone picked so highly in the deep draft, touted so highly and expected to do so well. That's all I'm saying right now.

The more bad games Jake has, sure, the less probability he has of becoming that star winger, but it's still very early days and I, like most CDCers, am aware of this. I wouldn't expect Jake to come into his true self until early to mid 20s even, and some powerforwards even peak at 28-30 so there's nothing to worry about there. I'm just saying that right now, he is goddamn pathetic and invisible. Posts, chances, but absolutely nothing to show for anything.

I'm willing to be patient with Jake if we develop him properly and it looks like management are thinking the same way now too. Rushing him into the NHL was the biggest mistake we've made (besides picking him but I'll leave that alone). He's got to go back to junior after this and fight for a roster spot next season against Gaunce and Shinkaruk.

[Warhippy]

25 minutes ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

I never said 3 games determines a players career, don't just extrapolate that out of nothing. That's a rediculous remark to make.

What I am saying is that Jake has 0 points in 3 games. You can't deny that's underperforming.

I judge Jake and his play on a game by game basis individually and don't make any assumptions about his career because no one knows which way it's going to go. For the most part, probability states that he's going to end up a top-6 powerforward in the NHL for a long time. It's pretty unlikely he becomes a bust.

I'm just saying that 0 points in 3 games is pathetic for someone picked so highly in the deep draft, touted so highly and expected to do so well. That's all I'm saying right now.

The more bad games Jake has, sure, the less probability he has of becoming that star winger, but it's still very early days and I, like most CDCers, am aware of this. I wouldn't expect Jake to come into his true self until early to mid 20s even, and some powerforwards even peak at 28-30 so there's nothing to worry about there. I'm just saying that right now, he is goddamn pathetic and invisible. Posts, chances, but absolutely nothing to show for anything.

I'm willing to be patient with Jake if we develop him properly and it looks like management are thinking the same way now too. Rushing him into the NHL was the biggest mistake we've made (besides picking him but I'll leave that alone). He's got to go back to junior after this and fight for a roster spot next season against Gaunce and Shinkaruk.

Right and wrong.

 

Bringing him in to the NHL is not now nor ever a mistake.  He knows what is expected of him and the level of competition he's going to face.

 

He should go back to juniors though and should spend 2-3 seasons in the AHL developing.  But yes, in fact many are "concerned" labeling him, writing him off all based off of this year and 3 wjc games.

 

It's sad.

 

Labelling him as pathetic, invisible because of posts and many chances though?  come on man..if he's ringing iron and he's generating or getting chances, he is not pathetic and he is not invisible

Edited December 30, 2015 by Warhippy

[guntrix]

36 minutes ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

I judge Jake and his play on a game by game basis individually and don't make any assumptions about his career because no one knows which way it's going to go. For the most part, probability states that he's going to end up a top-6 powerforward in the NHL for a long time. It's pretty unlikely he becomes a bust.

Can you explain how probability states this for Jake all things considered?

I agree that it's too early to call him a bust but there are absolutely no guarantees. 

He's just as likely to end up a 3rd/4th line grinder than he is to be a top 6 forward.

[guntrix]

18 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

He should go back to juniors though and should spend 2-3 seasons in the AHL developing.  But yes, in fact many are "concerned" labeling him, writing him off all based off of this year and 3 wjc games.

 

It's sad.

Can you provide the username of a poster who has only just begun to express negative sentiments of Jake within the past week? Go on. If you can't, then I'll be happy to call you out on your bullsh!t.

[stawns]

8 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Right and wrong.

 

Bringing him in to the NHL is not now nor ever a mistake.  He knows what is expected of him and the level of competition he's going to face.

 

He should go back to juniors though and should spend 2-3 seasons in the AHL developing.  But yes, in fact many are "concerned" labeling him, writing him off all based off of this year and 3 wjc games.

 

It's sad.

 

Labelling him as pathetic, invisible because of posts and many chances though?  come on man..if he's ringing iron and he's generating or getting chances, he is not pathetic and he is not invisible

The worst possible thing they can do this season is sending him back to JR.  He needs to develop all the great things the org likes about his game.  They lose all control over his development in this critical time to the Hitmen and his bad habits will be reinforced.  Keeping him in Van, giving him all their resources with the understanding that there's a very real chance he spends next year in Utica is the best possible scenario for him.  He has all the tools to be an impact player in the league of the develop him right.

[Warhippy]

16 minutes ago, guntrix said:

Can you provide the username of a poster who has only just begun to express negative sentiments of Jake within the past week? Go on. If you can't, then I'll be happy to call you out on your bullsh!t.

Well let's see.  I didn't say anything about the last week, I said the WJC and less than 40 games in the NHL., or more specifically "this year" sooooo ya.  I won't start naming names because I think over the last 10 pages it is very evident who they are

 

The end result is we're STILL going to have champions like yourself who spend full days and pages posting why they think (hope) our prospects flame out.  never a positive comment, nothing of the sort.  Always doom always gloom.

personally, I'll take a truckload of fairweather fans over your ilk any day of the week.  You claim to be a fan of the team and the sport but spend days critiquing analyzing and basically proclaiming the worst of our prospects and all but hoping they fail to make the team to justify your position and opinion of them and even when they shine, stand out and start showing serious signs of progress you either disappear completely or refuse to acknowledge that they're doing better than you want them too.

 

Only to write it all off with a smug; "but I hope they prove me wrong"

 

So, you can call whoever you want; it won't change that fact

Edited December 30, 2015 by Warhippy

[Warhippy]

3 minutes ago, stawns said:

The worst possible thing they can do this season is sending him back to JR.  He needs to develop all the great things the org likes about his game.  They lose all control over his development in this critical time to the Hitmen and his bad habits will be reinforced.  Keeping him in Van, giving him all their resources with the understanding that there's a very real chance he spends next year in Utica is the best possible scenario for him.  He has all the tools to be an impact player in the league of the develop him right.

See Stawns, I completely agree with you for all of those reasons.  but at the same time I also wonder if sending him back to simply crush children like a rampaging Mongol in ancient China might not be a good thing for him.  The best possible scenario for that would be benning somehow having him traded to a team like Kelowna, the Giants or a WHL contender.

 

Having him stay up does little to nothing to harm his development as we could still slot him directly in to utica for his 2-3 seasons of development under Green (god I hope we can keep Green for a few more years) so either way I see it as a win(ish) win for this kid

 

Go down, dominate hopefully.  Stay up learn to slog it out on the bottom 6 with NHL caliber players while fans hopefully temper their expectations or at least endless negative nancy opinions about him.

[guntrix]

19 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Well let's see.  I didn't say anything about the last week, I said the WJC and less than 40 games in the NHL., or more specifically "this year"

 

Now go ahead, call whoever you want, bs, god, Lemmy.  Doesn't matter. 

 

The end result is we're STILL going to have champions like yourself who spend full days and pages posting why they think (hope) our prospects flame out.  never a positive comment, nothing of the sort.  Always doom always gloom.

personally, I'll take a truckload of fairweather fans over your ilk any day of the week.  You claim to be a fan of the team and the sport but spend days critiquing analyzing and basically proclaiming the worst of our prospects and all but hoping they fail to make the team to justify your position and opinion of them and even when they shine, stand out and start showing serious signs of progress you either disappear completely or refuse to acknowledge that they're doing better than you want them too.

 

Only to write it all off with a smug; "but I hope they prove me wrong"

 

So again, you can call whoever you want; it won't change that fact

No one's labelling him a bust, that's a word you guys love to bring up for some reason. 

Your third paragraph is pure bs seeing as I come on here a third of the time that some of the other posters do. Also, I've never said anything bad about McCann, Baer, Hutton, etc. I'm just not high on this one kid. Simple as. 

[NEON.KNEE]

LOL at all of this neurotic over analyzing and deconstruction of each shift by Jake Virtanen.  OMG guys, he totally wasted that 48 secs of ice time, this Kid is a sure fire bust. 

From what I have seen in this WJC is a bunch of prima donna puck hogs.  Canada ain't winning $&!#e this year.  Jake has proven that he can be a contributing member on a championship team...This year's Team Canada at the WJC's is not a championship team...I would barely even consider them a team.

[Blueberries]

2 hours ago, N7Nucks said:

Most of these haters likely won't be here when Jake gets it going in the NHL in the next couple years. I have to think these guys are just trolls. 

Define Troll.

[CANUCK-EXPRESS]

4 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Too harsh?  Guess I'm just an abrasive "pathetic joke" then 

LOL do you bro

[alfstonker]

8 hours ago, J.R. said:

I don't believe this is accurate. I firmly believe Jake was kept up to largely have more control of his development as the primary objective. Secondarily, two give him a "taste" and show him where be needs to get to. Thirdly, to see if he could jump in and go from serviceable bottom 6 to excelling bottom 6 in his 40 games. Then make a call from there. 

I REALLY don't think there's any petty, selfish, shortsighted motivation at work here to "rush" him. 

I also believe he will likely spend some (if not most/all) of next year in Utica short of some miraculous development over the summer. 

People need to be patient. 

JR you could be right but how do you know the Sabres were not saying the exact same thing with Zack. It's often too easy to see a big youngster and say get him up and he can learn on the hoof. It's possible but if that was really the best way why do teams like Detroit not do it?

Would it have really been so bad to send Jake back after 9 games? He was banged up anyway and he could still have been given set things to work on with his coaches.

As for Utica I totally agree as I do about being patient. Patience was my whole point in fact.

[Warhippy]

33 minutes ago, guntrix said:

No one's labelling him a bust, that's a word you guys love to bring up for some reason. 

Your third paragraph is pure bs seeing as I come on here a third of the time that some of the other posters do. Also, I've never said anything bad about McCann, Baer, Hutton, etc. I'm just not high on this one kid. Simple as. 

yet

[canuckledraggin]

31 minutes ago, NEON.KNEE said:

LOL at all of this neurotic over analyzing and deconstruction of each shift by Jake Virtanen.  OMG guys, he totally wasted that 48 secs of ice time, this Kid is a sure fire bust. 

From what I have seen in this WJC is a bunch of prima donna puck hogs.  Canada ain't winning $&!#e this year.  Jake has proven that he can be a contributing member on a championship team...This year's Team Canada at the WJC's is not a championship team...I would barely even consider them a team.

It has really come down to analyzing every step he makes now. I'm hoping he has a good game tomorrow on a line with Crouse and Strome. That was the top line at practice today so it looks like they're doing a bit of juggling to get guys going.

[Tavrohorvat53]

55 minutes ago, stawns said:

The worst possible thing they can do this season is sending him back to JR.  He needs to develop all the great things the org likes about his game.  They lose all control over his development in this critical time to the Hitmen and his bad habits will be reinforced.  Keeping him in Van, giving him all their resources with the understanding that there's a very real chance he spends next year in Utica is the best possible scenario for him.  He has all the tools to be an impact player in the league of the develop him right.

The bottom line is Jake needs to play to learn and get better and feel good about himself. If that's on the Canucks roster great and if it's in the jrs then so be it. 

 

This is guy shouldn't be sitting out games at this stage of his development, plain and simple. That's how you destroy raw talent, by benching or healthy scratching them. Practice time and coaching help but he's gotta be given ample opportunity to figure it out against real competition.

 

I hope he turns out to be the player we all want him to be but it's reasonable to think it could go either way.

 

 

 

[sockeye]

Jake may not be putting up points at the WJC but I note that he is tied for second as far his plus minus stat.  That's an important stat as it shows that things happen when he is on the ice.

Edited December 31, 2015 by sockeye

[guntrix]

25 minutes ago, sockeye said:

Jake may not be putting up points but I note that he is tied for second as far his plus minus stat.  That's an important stat as it shows that things happen when he is on the ice.

Plus minus is the most convenient thing in all of sports history.

It's dismissed as a "misleading" stat when it doesn't support an opinion and it's used as evidence when it does. 

Which one's it gonna be CDC?

[WHL rocks]

Kid needs to go to the minors and ripen. He's not ready. 

Doesn't mean he's a bust, doesn't mean he's gonna suck, doesn't mean people who say this hate him, doesn't mean we are negative. It only means one thing...

Kids not ready.

He needs further development. And in the long run it's better for him and the team.

[RonMexico]

2 minutes ago, guntrix said:

Plus minus is the most convenient thing in all of sports history.

It's dismissed as a "misleading" stat when it doesn't support an opinion and it's used as evidence when it does. 

Which one's it gonna be CDC?

 

To me it's a team stat. Play on a bad team and you will likely be a minus player. Play on a good team and you should be above 0. If you play on a good team and you are a minus player (or vice versa), then that provides meaningful context.

[DownUndaCanuck]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

Right and wrong.

 

Bringing him in to the NHL is not now nor ever a mistake.  He knows what is expected of him and the level of competition he's going to face.

 

He should go back to juniors though and should spend 2-3 seasons in the AHL developing.  But yes, in fact many are "concerned" labeling him, writing him off all based off of this year and 3 wjc games.

 

It's sad.

 

Labelling him as pathetic, invisible because of posts and many chances though?  come on man..if he's ringing iron and he's generating or getting chances, he is not pathetic and he is not invisible

2-3 seasons in the AHL is exactly what Jake Virtanen needed. He's the type of player who has the physical makeup ready for the NHL, he just doesn't have the positioning in either the defensive or offensive zone and good AHL coaching would help with that. I think he should have started this season in junior, we call up Shin/Gaunce to fill that spot with the Canucks, then next season Jake plays an entire year in the AHL and THEN we give him a sniff at the NHL.

For whatever reason, whether it be pressure from fans to play more kids, the fact he's a young BC boy and local fan fave or the fact that McCann deserved a roster spot and WD wanted to keep the kids together, it doesn't matter - Jake needs to develop properly and not be rushed. Hopefully by sending him back to the WHL after the WJC we'll end up with a Duclair/Draisaitl-like emergence next season.

1 hour ago, guntrix said:

Can you explain how probability states this for Jake all things considered?

I agree that it's too early to call him a bust but there are absolutely no guarantees. 

He's just as likely to end up a 3rd/4th line grinder than he is to be a top 6 forward.

High probability because of his skill-set, where he was drafted and scouting reports. Obviously for the later round guys they have far lower a probability of even making it in the NHL let alone being a top player because of what they've done in junior/around guys their age. A lot can happen in between the draft and the end of a players career though, and I believe each of those events (for example, leading the WJC in scoring, scoring hat tricks in the NHL etc.) can change the probability of that player becoming a star.

When Jake was drafted he was expected to be a top-6 if not top-3 scorer. You don't burn 6th overall picks on a 3rd/4th line grinder.