Sean Monahan Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 The problem is that the NHL-CHL transfer agreement is in place largely to financially safeguard CHL teams and Canada's junior hockey system. Without it, most of their top players would be assigned to the AHL. Take for example the London Knights of over the last few years; presumably Horvat, Domi, and now Marner (among others) would have been assigned to the AHL. If a clause was to be added that allowed each NHL team to assign one under 20 player to the AHL, the NHL teams would have to provide the CHL team financial compensation. For example, look at the Erie Otters. They have filed for bankruptcy after having McDavid for 3 years; being a CHL team can be really difficult. If such an exceptional clause was implemented, Arizona would likely use it for Strome (or keep him in the NHL). This would further cripple the organization. In all, the reason why there is an AHL-CHL age requirement is to keep the CHL system viable. In order to manipulate the arrangement there would have to be financial compensation. It is interesting to note that a lot of people would prefer a European system, which has junior, minor (pro) and major (pro) vertically integrated. Thus, circumventing the aforementioned problem of separate and competing financial interests along with player development concerns. However, this in itself has problems; namely there would likely have to be a contraction in the league. Take for example Arizona, it can't even make its NHL team financial viable forget trying to support a junior and minor league team. In some ways I believe it would be very exciting to have a junior, minor, and NHL players all playing underneath a single banner. However, I seriously doubt such a major structural change to the hockey system in north america would ever happen. Good post, I hadn't thought of all these implications myself. In regards to the ability (or lack thereof) of Arizona to support their feeder teams, what about having those teams in more hockey-mad markets? For example, a struggling team like Arizona gets more preferable feeder teams, such as the London Knights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baumerman77 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Good post, I hadn't thought of all these implications myself. In regards to the ability (or lack thereof) of Arizona to support their feeder teams, what about having those teams in more hockey-mad markets? For example, a struggling team like Arizona gets more preferable feeder teams, such as the London Knights. Yes that would be ideal. But you can imagine if (and that is a huge "if") this were to happen the London Knights are among the most profitable junior teams and thus likely on of the most expensive - pricing themselves out of Arizona's price range. If you look at the KHL, they kind of have a mix where some KHL teams own junior (MHL) affiliates but some VHL (the minor pro league - Russia's AHL) also own MHL junior teams. Moreover, some organizations are completely vertically integrated at all three levels. If (big "if") this were going to happen, it would likely follow the KHL mold. That way, some NHL teams, like Arizona, wouldn't have to support minor and junior teams (there would just be a few independent teams where their prospects play - kind of like the few unaffiliated AHL teams today, but also at the junior level). One problem with this that I didn't mention before is cultural and geographical. Often times in European leagues young juniors players will be drafted and actually go and play on teams "far" away. Now I know, we think that this isn't a big issue but there are a ton of North American junior kids who refuse to move to a city to play junior hockey there. Perhaps there is a difference in "worldliness" or independence between Europeans and North Americans at younger ages, but one could see potential problems. For example imagine a situation where a young player gets drafted to Boston, but at first plays for their junior affiliate in Ontario when he is 15 and then because he is so good gets called up to the minor league team when he is 16 in Rhode Island. That might just be asking too much from a younger kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hearditall Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 So does any team want Vey for a 2nd? No Vey!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo.Horvat53 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 At this point I'd gladly take a 3rd or 4th for Vey. Yes we gave up a 2nd but crap happens. Let it go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Schneider Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 At this point I'd gladly take a 3rd or 4th for Vey. Yes we gave up a 2nd but crap happens. Let it go. So you think at this point, Vey is worth more than Kassian? I don't want anything for Vey... at this point, I just want management to acknowledge their mistake and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Bunch of drama queens... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Monahan Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Yes that would be ideal. But you can imagine if (and that is a huge "if") this were to happen the London Knights are among the most profitable junior teams and thus likely on of the most expensive - pricing themselves out of Arizona's price range. If you look at the KHL, they kind of have a mix where some KHL teams own junior (MHL) affiliates but some VHL (the minor pro league - Russia's AHL) also own MHL junior teams. Moreover, some organizations are completely vertically integrated at all three levels. If (big "if") this were going to happen, it would likely follow the KHL mold. That way, some NHL teams, like Arizona, wouldn't have to support minor and junior teams (there would just be a few independent teams where their prospects play - kind of like the few unaffiliated AHL teams today, but also at the junior level). One problem with this that I didn't mention before is cultural and geographical. Often times in European leagues young juniors players will be drafted and actually go and play on teams "far" away. Now I know, we think that this isn't a big issue but there are a ton of North American junior kids who refuse to move to a city to play junior hockey there. Perhaps there is a difference in "worldliness" or independence between Europeans and North Americans at younger ages, but one could see potential problems. For example imagine a situation where a young player gets drafted to Boston, but at first plays for their junior affiliate in Ontario when he is 15 and then because he is so good gets called up to the minor league team when he is 16 in Rhode Island. That might just be asking too much from a younger kid. Another good post. I've thought many times about this sort of vertical system but hadn't thought of all the implications. In a perfect world I'd like to see it happen. I could be wrong but I believe many European soccer teams do something like this, signing kids at a really young age and putting them through their own development academies. That being said, the Arizona Coyotes are a far cry from Real Madrid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonaldBrashear Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 Here's two massive reasons why Virtanen will get a spot and McCann won't. ------ 1) Virtanen has an NHL ready body, same as Horvat. He weighs 30lbs more than McCann. 2) Virtanen is a RW. We have no depth on RW. Our top 2 RW's are Burrows (who is a natural LW and is 34 years old), Vrbata (who is probably gone after this year and is also 35 years old). McCann is a centre, and we have tons of depth on centre. Henrik is signed for 3 more years, Sutter is signed for 5 years and Horvat is here to stay. That leaves no room on centre right now, not for 3 years until Henrik leaves. Will McCann be able to play wing? Not right now. ------ People can yell at the top of their lungs that they want BOTH these guys, but there's no room. No even close. There's hardly even room for 1 of them. So anyone who is seriously getting your hopes up of McCann playing this year, get a grip on reality. There's no where for him to even play. Does he deserve it? Sure, but so do a half dozen other guys who are about to get sent down, like Gaunce, Grenier, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniwaki Canuck Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 Here's two massive reasons why Virtanen will get a spot and McCann won't. ------ 1) Virtanen has an NHL ready body, same as Horvat. He weighs 30lbs more than McCann. 2) Virtanen is a RW. We have no depth on RW. Our top 2 RW's are Burrows (who is a natural LW and is 34 years old), Vrbata (who is probably gone after this year and is also 35 years old). McCann is a centre, and we have tons of depth on centre. Henrik is signed for 3 more years, Sutter is signed for 5 years and Horvat is here to stay. That leaves no room on centre right now, not for 3 years until Henrik leaves. Will McCann be able to play wing? Not right now. ------ People can yell at the top of their lungs that they want BOTH these guys, but there's no room. No even close. There's hardly even room for 1 of them. So anyone who is seriously getting your hopes up of McCann playing this year, get a grip on reality. There's no where for him to even play. Does he deserve it? Sure, but so do a half dozen other guys who are about to get sent down, like Gaunce, Grenier, etc. Hansen and Dorsett say hi from right wing. Also we have this 4C vacancy unless you just want to give it to Vey. From a positional need perspective, McCann should have an edge on Virtanen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHL rocks Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 Best thing to do would be let both Virt and Mcann play 9 games and get a good look at them. Get them some NHL experience and a couple of NHL cheques and then send them to juniors for the season. Let them ripen in until next season. If one of them pulls a Horvat sure keep them up but otherwise it's best to send them down and have play a ton of hockey minutes down there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baumerman77 Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 Another good post. I've thought many times about this sort of vertical system but hadn't thought of all the implications. In a perfect world I'd like to see it happen. I could be wrong but I believe many European soccer teams do something like this, signing kids at a really young age and putting them through their own development academies. That being said, the Arizona Coyotes are a far cry from Real Madrid. Vertical systems seem to really benefit the top teams with the most cash. You can imagine all the expense on trainers, coaches management, facilities, etc which can be strong determinants of success. More to that point, you can imagine how difficult scouting would become especially if drafting was at an early age like 15 (NHL teams aren't even that good at scouting 18 year olds). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonaldBrashear Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 Hansen and Dorsett say hi from right wing. Also we have this 4C vacancy unless you just want to give it to Vey. From a positional need perspective, McCann should have an edge on Virtanen. Hansen and Dorsett say hi from 3rd and 4th lines. They are almost 30 years old. Hansen and Dorsett will never be true top 6 RW's. Whose going to be the 2nd line RW next year when Vrbata leaves? And the year after when Burrows leaves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hearditall Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 McCann Standing up Wingels (6'0 200lbs. leading hitter for Sharks) charge & putting Wingels on his arse... 180lbs. athlete can handle is own. What a shot. Rest my case. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yes we can nucks Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 Yes he McCann, nucks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven pounds soft Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 Ok guys. We all owe OP an apology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rizzuto&hatoum Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 Vertical systems seem to really benefit the top teams with the most cash. You can imagine all the expense on trainers, coaches management, facilities, etc which can be strong determinants of success. More to that point, you can imagine how difficult scouting would become especially if drafting was at an early age like 15 (NHL teams aren't even that good at scouting 18 year olds). In a way, aren't you going back to the junior sponsorship system of the 1960s? My mind is a bit murky on this but didn't Boston sponsor the Oshawa Generals so they could get their mitts on Bobby Orr? and was there ever a connection between the Canadiens and the Jr Canadiens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hearditall Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 Define "heart" with some objective criteria. McCann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hearditall Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 Posted 28 September 2015 - 03:45 AM BCNeil, on 18 Sept 2015 - 11:37 AM, said: I think McCaan has zero chance this year. He will play junior this year and in Utica for the next couple years after that. Why do people like to think they know something when they clearly don't? How's Kesler deal lookin now boys! Sutter, Sbisa, Dorsett & McCann > Kesler (Not to say Kes isn't a beauty as well but moving forward.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DownUndaCanuck Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 I did not expect this, but McCann has been our best kid by a long shot. He's been slightly better than Virtanen overall, and far better than "veteran" kids like Gaunce, Shinkaruk and Jensen who have had time to develop their game. I think we have to give him 9 games and see how he does, because he's got NHL-ready offensive ability which is a rarity on this team. Virtanen, Shinkaruk, Gaunce and Jensen have all struggled in the offensive-skill department. Now McCann is leading our entire team in offence. Virtanen needs to go back to junior and keep scoring more because his offence really hasn't shone that much this pre-season, but I believe McCann has done enough to warrant a legitimate try-out on this team. He's been far better than Vey as well. Start him with a couple of games on the wing, if he sucks, maybe try him at 4C. Sedin - Sedin - Vbrata Baertschi - Sutter - Burrows McCann - Horvat - Hansen Dorsett - Vey - Prust If the kids need help, put Dorsett or Prust on their line instead of Hansen for toughness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo.Horvat53 Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 So you think at this point, Vey is worth more than Kassian? I don't want anything for Vey... at this point, I just want management to acknowledge their mistake and move on. Lol, sounds good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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