Discussion: Baertschi losing favour with Willie

[shinker]

Well the other night Garret gave the 1st star to Sbisa.....so even those who earn they living by watching the game can see some pretty strange things too.

Yeah by garrett, one of the biggest homers in canuckland.  Oh sbisa got 2 points, no.1 star you go!

[Stierlitz]

“I thought his line was pretty determined tonight,” Desjardins said of Sven working with Bo Horvat and Jannik Hansen. “He has a high-end skill and I believe if he gets comfortable and just feels good, it’s going to come. Right now, he’s just not in the groove, but he’s not hurting us defensively. And that was the thing we were worried about. Hopefully, the other side will break through for him.”

[samurai]

“I thought his line was pretty determined tonight,” Desjardins said of Sven working with Bo Horvat and Jannik Hansen. “He has a high-end skill and I believe if he gets comfortable and just feels good, it’s going to come. Right now, he’s just not in the groove, but he’s not hurting us defensively. And that was the thing we were worried about. Hopefully, the other side will break through for him.”

and then he goes with higgins.  

[Green Goblin]

and then he goes with higgins.  

I know right?

But we can only blame the coach so much. Baertschi definitely could have made a difference. But at the end of the day, it was team loss. All I know is that we have a better record with Sven in the line-up.

[mll]

“I thought his line was pretty determined tonight,” Desjardins said of Sven working with Bo Horvat and Jannik Hansen. “He has a high-end skill and I believe if he gets comfortable and just feels good, it’s going to come. Right now, he’s just not in the groove, but he’s not hurting us defensively. And that was the thing we were worried about. Hopefully, the other side will break through for him.”

Sounds like a catch 22 - 

Iain MacIntyre ‏@imacVanSun  13h13 hours ago

Surprises me that Willie would take out Baertschi after solid return from press box. Won't help confidence. #Higgins

 

WD's good friend Mike Johnston who as it happens was just in town, use to say that you can't teach the way Sven generates offence and that he had skills that just couldn't be taught.  Asked by Calgary media earlier this year Johnston talked about how important confidence is for a skilled player like Sven and how easy it is to lose that confidence when he can't find his reads and timing (unlike players that he calls workers/grinders).  The comments were relayed to Baertschi who confirmed that the coach's trust is huge for him to gain that confidence to make the plays he needs to make to be effective. 

 

In Utica, the Comets' play-by-play said several times that the scoresheet did not reflect accurately his contribution and that before the TDL they didn't have a player that could generate offence like he did - so there's also that.  As a playmaker his points are also dependent on the ability of his linemates to finish.  

 

So WillieDs comments and the benching are a bit concerning especially after how Green talked about needing to rebuild his confidence when he got him in Utica.

[the harry]

Well, at the moment the team record is much better with Sven than without him. Thats all I have to say to the benching of Baertschi.

[Salmonberries]

I don't think you can really fault Willie. Higgins is the better option right now and Willie has to try to win games.

 

I did think Baertchi played one of his better games last time out, let's hope he continues to improve.

[Zuongo]

#FreeBae

[mll]

From Botchford: http://blogs.theprovince.com/2015/11/04/the-provies-the-mccann-question-the-rodin-question-and-claims-jannik-is-average-even-though-he-looked-anything-but/

BEST RHETORICAL QUESTION

Sven Baertschi is a creative playmaking, offensively gifted forward focused on puck possession who does tend to play on the perimetre.

He was this way in the AHL. He was this way in Calgary. He was this way when the Canucks traded a second round pick to acquire him in the offseason.

Benning gushed about that trade, claiming Baertschi the most dominant player he had seen in junior, which was not all that long ago.

But here we are, 13 games into the season and Baertschi is a healthy scratch for the third time.

The whispers around the team are suggesting it’s a bottom line move. If Sven Baertschi wants to stay in the lineup, Sven Baertschi has to score goals.

Four assists in 12 games playing inconsistent minutes with a centre the coach says his at his best when he’s defence first, is not enough.

Oh, the ironing.

Speaking of “not that long ago,” Baertschi was being torched for his defensive play and not in private meeting.

In one of his attempted character assassinations of his then-prospect, Burke laid this out at Baertschi’s feet:

There are three zones in the ice surfaces in this league. I don’t see that he’s learned to play and compete in two of them… I see this is a guy who’s focusing on one area (scoring) and even then, sporadically.

Funny, because now Baertschi has been on the ice for the fewest goals against among the Canucks (1 while his most-of-time-centre has been on the ice for 7). Baertschi also leads the team in score-adjusted Corsi percentage (53.60).

And just to make sure everyone is noticing what he’s doing, you know the little things, ono Monday he led the Canucks in blocked shots with three, which said “love me, coach” if anything ever could say that.

Sven has excelled defensively, on that there’s no debate. Is it possible that has taken away from his focus on what they now seem to really want him to do — score goals?

Possible.

I am not presenting any of this to suggest there is an easy solution to the Baertschi dilemma.

But, for a moment, look at it from his perspective.

“Oh, great, you’re good offensively, but you can’t play D” has become “Oh great, you’re good defensively, but you don’t score.”

Really, we all know this, to get the most of him, he has to play regularly.

“I feel my best when I can play three or four shifts in a row. That’s when I stop thinking about things,” Baertschi said.

“I’m a playmaker. I like to create. I like to score goals. I have to score goals. But I thought I had been creating a lot of chances.

“I felt last game, everybody started to get going. Once I create chances, I’m going to start to get chances as well.

“I am going to score.

“It’s tough to say what they need me to do.”

He needs to play on the power play.

He needs to play with an offensive centre who can take advantage of that playmaking. Not sure the opportunity even exists. Sutter? Horvat? Maybe McCann eventually?

But what’s the alternative? Another season of Higgins?

Gaunce?

Here’s the thing, Baertschi is a highly skilled player who has the potential to be better than average.

How many more players like that do you see on this team?

The team can’t just have another second round pick wasted here. They’ve invested huge in Baertschi and need to figure out how to make him shine.

[Baggins]

Oh the drama.

[ice orca]

I wonder if his agent is flying out to Vancouver as we speak.

[alfstonker]

I see some of the same arguments we had with Kass coming with Baertschi. In particular the fact that while he has loads of skill, as Kass had he needs to find a way to get involved more, all the time not just every 3rd or 4th shift.

Personally I would love him to take Higgin's place but if Willie has one talent he looks for in a player it is compete and work rate (yep that's two)

Skilled players don't get to use their skill throughout a game if they can't fight to win or more important keep the puck. Sven really struggles in that department and that is why unlike Hutton or McCann he always looks hurried.

[snipes2539]

I don't think you can really fault Willie. Higgins is the better option right now and Willie has to try to win games.

 

I did think Baertchi played one of his better games last time out, let's hope he continues to improve.

I'm sorry but there is nothing supporting your claim that Higgins is the better option right now.  Baertschi has contributed offensively and is responsible defensively.  Higgins contributes nothing offensively and we have 4 others in the lineup who contribute more defensively.

This whole love affair with Higgins and the coach reminds me of the bromance between AV and Raymond.  Higgins is a great guy, lots of heart and I appreciate what he's done over the past few years, but much like Bieksa it's time to move on, stop holding back the development of our youth for the sake of holding on to aging vets who no longer contribute all that much.

[snipes2539]

From Botchford: http://blogs.theprovince.com/2015/11/04/the-provies-the-mccann-question-the-rodin-question-and-claims-jannik-is-average-even-though-he-looked-anything-but/

BEST RHETORICAL QUESTION

Sven Baertschi is a creative playmaking, offensively gifted forward focused on puck possession who does tend to play on the perimetre.

He was this way in the AHL. He was this way in Calgary. He was this way when the Canucks traded a second round pick to acquire him in the offseason.

Benning gushed about that trade, claiming Baertschi the most dominant player he had seen in junior, which was not all that long ago.

But here we are, 13 games into the season and Baertschi is a healthy scratch for the third time.

The whispers around the team are suggesting it’s a bottom line move. If Sven Baertschi wants to stay in the lineup, Sven Baertschi has to score goals.

Four assists in 12 games playing inconsistent minutes with a centre the coach says his at his best when he’s defence first, is not enough.

Oh, the ironing.

Speaking of “not that long ago,” Baertschi was being torched for his defensive play and not in private meeting.

In one of his attempted character assassinations of his then-prospect, Burke laid this out at Baertschi’s feet:

There are three zones in the ice surfaces in this league. I don’t see that he’s learned to play and compete in two of them… I see this is a guy who’s focusing on one area (scoring) and even then, sporadically.

Funny, because now Baertschi has been on the ice for the fewest goals against among the Canucks (1 while his most-of-time-centre has been on the ice for 7). Baertschi also leads the team in score-adjusted Corsi percentage (53.60).

And just to make sure everyone is noticing what he’s doing, you know the little things, ono Monday he led the Canucks in blocked shots with three, which said “love me, coach” if anything ever could say that.

Sven has excelled defensively, on that there’s no debate. Is it possible that has taken away from his focus on what they now seem to really want him to do — score goals?

Possible.

I am not presenting any of this to suggest there is an easy solution to the Baertschi dilemma.

But, for a moment, look at it from his perspective.

“Oh, great, you’re good offensively, but you can’t play D” has become “Oh great, you’re good defensively, but you don’t score.”

Really, we all know this, to get the most of him, he has to play regularly.

“I feel my best when I can play three or four shifts in a row. That’s when I stop thinking about things,” Baertschi said.

“I’m a playmaker. I like to create. I like to score goals. I have to score goals. But I thought I had been creating a lot of chances.

“I felt last game, everybody started to get going. Once I create chances, I’m going to start to get chances as well.

“I am going to score.

“It’s tough to say what they need me to do.”

He needs to play on the power play.

He needs to play with an offensive centre who can take advantage of that playmaking. Not sure the opportunity even exists. Sutter? Horvat? Maybe McCann eventually?

But what’s the alternative? Another season of Higgins?

Gaunce?

Here’s the thing, Baertschi is a highly skilled player who has the potential to be better than average.

How many more players like that do you see on this team?

The team can’t just have another second round pick wasted here. They’ve invested huge in Baertschi and need to figure out how to make him shine.

Completely agree with the analysis, the continued benching of this player is unwarranted, compared to others on the team who're contributing less, there is nothing that stands out in his play that justifies his residence in the dog house.

[TOMapleLaughs]

Higgins was our 5th-leading scorer last season, and he brings more than just offense.  Last night he played under 10mins.  Safe to say he's being worked back into the lineup slowly.

It's pretty clear that this team won't go into a full youth movement, so guess what.  We have to play our vets.  

Meanwhile, we're going to have other prospects come and go.  Not only does Bartschi have to improve on his own accord because of the vets, but he has to also look in the rearview mirror.  The current Utica guys aren't going to stay at that level forever.

We're going to see Virtanen, McCann and Bartshi being benched all season long.  Will we honestly have different camps complaining about that all season long?  Or will we learn?

[Fred65]

 

This whole love affair with Higgins and the coach reminds me of the bromance between AV and Raymond.

Funny you raise that name ....... Raymond because frankly he and Beartschi are simmilar in their approach to the game and both will end up in the same position fringe players. Probably started when they were playing in their youth ....best player on the team no need to do the grunt work, that's for others, no need to hit, that's for others. It's a shame becasue minor adjustment in their youth days would have brought about a completely different result...their skill is not in question  ..... it's the application

[oldnews]

Botchford is a clown.

"Sven has excelled defensively, on that there's no debate." 

Comical misunderstanding of underlying numbers, complete oblivion to the fact of fairly extreme sheltering (particularly for a 23 yr old - far moreso than the 19 yr olds in the linuep).  As usual, Botchford is blowharding his patented uninformed noise.

Baertschi is a bubble player.  That's the reality.  If he earns it, he might command a roster spot - until then, he's a bubble player competing for minutes like everyone else.  His corsi in context is not impressive.

Getting scratched intermittently is the reality for a player in his position.

A 2nd round pick is ridiculously overvalued around here.  Some 2nds turn out to be good NHLers - most of them don't.  What don't people understand about the fact that Baertschi - even this version that is a bubble player, in and out of the lineup and not a certainty to stick - is still a relatively lesser 'risk' than a late 2nd round pick. 

Give it a rest folks.

Vancouver is full of drama queens - Botchford is the queen mouthpiece.

Baertschi is a good young prospect.  Higgins is an outstanding two-way veteran with a very solid NHL career in his back pocket - if Baertschi can become anything close to what Higgins has done at the NHL level - albeit different types of players - he'd have a highly successful career.

Higgins is a guy who can play hard minutes, has scored 40+ points as a third liner - is an elite puck hound (50 takeaways, +36 turnover differential in 2012 and good for 35-40 takeaways every year).... He's a guy who year after year gets under 50% ozone starts, is always among a handful of forwards facing the strongest quality of competition. is a highly intelligent player who can be used in all situations up and down the lineup - kills penalties, scores more than can be expected considering his situational use - and always has very strong positive underlying numbers nevertheless.

People like Botchford who are oblivious to the value of a player like Higgins really set themselves apart as highly vocal complainers than have no idea what they're talking about.

If Baertschi ever becomes close to the quality of player that Higgins has been, that SB deal will have been a slam dunk steal.

[the harry]

Well, at the moment the team record is much better with Sven than without him. Thats all I have to say to the benching of Baertschi.

To keep the facts, the team record is better with Sven than without him; his corsi are really good; he is no defensive liability and there is no doubt about his skills and offensive ability.

...

 

[alfstonker]

I'm sorry but there is nothing supporting your claim that Higgins is the better option right now.  Baertschi has contributed offensively and is responsible defensively.  Higgins contributes nothing offensively and we have 4 others in the lineup who contribute more defensively.

This whole love affair with Higgins and the coach reminds me of the bromance between AV and Raymond.  Higgins is a great guy, lots of heart and I appreciate what he's done over the past few years, but much like Bieksa it's time to move on, stop holding back the development of our youth for the sake of holding on to aging vets who no longer contribute all that much.

Well snipes as you may be aware I have been right behind how Willie has played and developed the rookies. However I can't see the wisdom of putting a guy who has missed every regular season game this season on the ice in place of either Baertschi or Gaunce, players who are already up to speed.

If ever there was a justification for sending a player to the A for conditioning, surely this was one such case. I know Higgins is a worker and has a decent scoring record but let's face it we had perfect evidence of injured players coming straight back into the line up last season and taking 4 or 5 games to get up to speed. Practice sessions just don't give the same kind of conditions as competitive games.

[alfstonker]

Botchford is a clown.

"Sven has excelled defensively, on that there's no debate." 

Comical misunderstanding of underlying numbers, complete oblivion to the fact of fairly extreme sheltering (particularly for a 23 yr old - far moreso than the 19 yr olds in the linuep).  As usual, Botchford is blowharding his patented uninformed noise.

Baertschi is a bubble player.  That's the reality.  If he earns it, he might command a roster spot - until then, he's a bubble player competing for minutes like everyone else.  His corsi in context is not impressive.

Getting scratched intermittently is the reality for a player in his position.

A 2nd round pick is ridiculously overvalued around here.  Some 2nds turn out to be good NHLers - most of them don't.  What don't people understand about the fact that Baertschi - even this version that is a bubble player, in and out of the lineup and not a certainty to stick - is still a relatively lesser 'risk' than a late 2nd round pick. 

Give it a rest folks.

Vancouver is full of drama queens - Botchford is the queen mouthpiece.

Baertschi is a good young prospect.  Higgins is an outstanding two-way veteran with a very solid NHL career in his back pocket - if Baertschi can become anything close to what Higgins has done at the NHL level - albeit different types of players - he'd have a highly successful career.

Higgins is a guy who can play hard minutes, has scored 40+ points as a third liner - is an elite puck hound (50 takeaways, +36 turnover differential in 2012 and good for 35-40 takeaways every year).... He's a guy who year after year gets under 50% ozone starts, is always among a handful of forwards facing the strongest quality of competition. is a highly intelligent player who can be used in all situations up and down the lineup - kills penalties, scores more than can be expected considering his situational use - and always has very strong positive underlying numbers nevertheless.

People like Botchford who are oblivious to the value of a player like Higgins really set themselves apart as highly vocal complainers than have no idea what they're talking about.

If Baertschi ever becomes close to the quality of player that Higgins has been, that SB deal will have been a slam dunk steal.

A good post oldnews, however we are not talking about a game fit Higgins. That is the point I'm making. If he had gone down and played 3 or 4 games in Utica we might have seen the Higgins you describe. 

In my view we can't afford to hand starts to guys who are not up to game pace for the same reason 4 games in we can't afford to dole out 15 mins to rookies just out the juniors.

Willie himself said he thought Baertschi had a good game last time out, so on that basis why drop him in favour of a guy who was obviously not up to speed. 

By the way, I seriously doubt he will be game fit for Buffalo either.