Discussion: Baertschi losing favour with Willie

[oldnews]

Well snipes as you may be aware I have been right behind how Willie has played and developed the rookies. However I can't see the wisdom of putting a guy who has missed every regular season game this season on the ice in place of either Baertschi or Gaunce, players who are already up to speed.

If ever there was a justification for sending a player to the A for conditioning, surely this was one such case. I know Higgins is a worker and has a decent scoring record but let's face it we had perfect evidence of injured players coming straight back into the line up last season and taking 4 or 5 games to get up to speed. Practice sessions just don't give the same kind of conditions as competitive games.

Those are good points - my take on this particular decision is that it has a lot to do with the opponent.  The Pens top 6 is pretty lethal - and their bottom six is anchored by guys like Fehr and Bonino - a strong two way presence imo.  I don't think that is a club that Baertschi matches up well against - there is really nowhere to hide him there.  I think Higgins versatility and ability to handle hard minutes made him the choice even if some people perceive that he wasn't ready.

The results don't really suggest a poor decision - Higgins had 4 of 5 dzone starts, was an even 0 - and despite the loss, Pittsburgh's top six really wasn't that daunting - got shut down for the most part.  DuMoulin and Perron were the only Pens to score an even strength point.

[alfstonker]

Those are good points - my take on this particular decision is that it has a lot to do with the opponent.  The Pens top 6 is pretty lethal - and their bottom six is anchored by guys like Fehr and Bonino - a strong two way presence imo.  I don't think that is a club that Baertschi matches up well against - there is really nowhere to hide him there.  I think Higgins versatility and ability to handle hard minutes made him the choice even if some people perceive that he wasn't ready.

The results don't really suggest a poor decision - Higgins had 4 of 5 dzone starts, was an even 0 - and despite the loss, Pittsburgh's top six really wasn't that daunting - got shut down for the most part.  DuMoulin and Perron were the only Pens to score an even strength point.

Fair enough, neither of us will ever know how Baertschi would have played however we had Gaunce and frankly. I think we should have been choosing between Gaunce and Baertschi until Higgins get's up to speed in Utica.

If this is the "get it done league" then I would have doubted a player who has been recuperating from injury was ever going to get it done without a few competitive games under his belt. I didn't see it once with any of our injured players last season either.

I also think this was not a great decision for Baertschi's moral and confidence, which worries me more.

 

[Nuxfanabroad]

One issue I see:

twins, Vrb, Baer, Tanev, Weber, & possibly 1 or 2 more.

When all are dressed, it's a pretty soft lineup. Until January, that might get you some wins. In the 2nd season(January>onwards) the reffs toss the whistles, & grinding teams gain the advantage.

Guys like Gaunce & Kenins become more valuable as a season progresses.

[Maniwaki Canuck]

Fair enough, neither of us will ever know how Baertschi would have played however we had Gaunce and frankly. I think we should have been choosing between Gaunce and Baertschi until Higgins get's up to speed in Utica.

If this is the "get it done league" then I would have doubted a player who has been recuperating from injury was ever going to get it done without a few competitive games under his belt. I didn't see it once with any of our injured players last season either.

I also think this was not a great decision for Baertschi's moral and confidence, which worries me more.

 

I definitely share this concern and assessment of the situation.  Hopefully WD's praise of Baertschi compensates somewhat.  On the other hand, it would be great if the team concept takes hold enough that players don't automatically take it personally if they sit now and then.  We have a lot of depth at forward and can put different looks on the ice to face different opponents, which should be to our advantage. 

Personally, I'm getting a bit tired of Dorsett's undisciplined penalties and wouldn't mind seeing some accountability there, but I'm not holding my breath. 

[DownUndaCanuck]

I'd rather have Baertschi in at this point and give Higgins a conditioning stint in Utica. He's clearly not ready and we could have used that skill against Pittsburgh. Also, there's no point having Virtanen and McCann in the lineup if they're playing 15 minutes one game and then 5 minutes the next. Give them a solid 10-12 minutes or park them in the press box on any given night for someone else.

[alfstonker]

I'd rather have Baertschi in at this point and give Higgins a conditioning stint in Utica. He's clearly not ready and we could have used that skill against Pittsburgh. Also, there's no point having Virtanen and McCann in the lineup if they're playing 15 minutes one game and then 5 minutes the next. Give them a solid 10-12 minutes or park them in the press box on any given night for someone else.

I'm sorry DUC but really? Is that how a team should be coached, by the numbers? I don't think so. Player's form, recovery rate, opponents and how the game is progressing ALL have to be taken into account during a game, especially where rookies are concerned. 

Just allocating ice time before a game would lead to mayhem and meltdown.

[DeNiro]

It's funny how a player can be such a game changer at the AHL level and then struggle with confidence in the NHL. Baertschi was a player that was noticeable every time he stepped on the ice in Utica. He's seems way more hesitant at the NHL level though.

Calgary really must have done a number on him. Hopefully he can regain his confidence and keep it high.

[da_hool]

I am perplexed by W.D. and how differently he handled Vey (last year) vs Baertschi (this year).  Vey wasn't benched regularly until late last season if I recall, and to be honest I thought he should have been benched or bumped down much sooner.  Whereas Baertschi barely gets a sniff this year.

[Cowardrobertford]

I am perplexed by W.D. and how differently he handled Vey (last year) vs Baertschi (this year).  Vey wasn't benched regularly until late last season if I recall, and to be honest I thought he should have been benched or bumped down much sooner.  Whereas Baertschi barely gets a sniff this year.

Haha here we go again. Why don't you also complain on how the other rookies aren't treated the way vey was.

[Alflives]

Haha here we go again. Why don't you also complain on how the other rookies aren't treated the way vey was.

they aren't treated like Golden Boy was.  And to no ones surprise, Golden Boy passed through waivers.  JB can draft, but he should stop trading for other teams' 23 year old table scraps - and two second rounders gone!!!!

[Baggins]

I am perplexed by W.D. and how differently he handled Vey (last year) vs Baertschi (this year).  Vey wasn't benched regularly until late last season if I recall, and to be honest I thought he should have been benched or bumped down much sooner.  Whereas Baertschi barely gets a sniff this year.

Injuries kept Vey in. And Kassian did nothing at all to help his own cause. Add in two other rookie forwards making it this year and somebody has to sit. Really, is there anybody that deserves to be a healthy scratch right now? You could easily argue Gaunce didn't deserve to sit in the press box or be returned to Utica for that matter. Just too many forwards this year.

[Cowardrobertford]

That coming from you, who publicly hated vey, I'm not surprised.

Ask yourself too alflive, in our prospect pool, who do you say are skillfull playmakers and near ready for the NHL. Then you would know why we had to take the risk on the two

[Alflives]

That coming from you, who publicly hated vey, I'm not surprised.

Ask yourself too alflive, in our prospect pool, who do you say are skillfull playmakers and near ready for the NHL. Then you would know why we had to take the risk on the two

it was not a risk though.   A risk implies some sort of chance for success.  Just because we had few, if any, skillful prospects does not mean we should go waste a second on a guy who has no chance to be an impact player.  

[Cowardrobertford]

it was not a risk though.   A risk implies some sort of chance for success.  Just because we had few, if any, skillful prospects does not mean we should go waste a second on a guy who has no chance to be an impact player.  

waste a second on aa guy who had no chance to be an impact pplayer? So second round picks have higher chance on becoming an impact player than 23yr olds who have been producing at a decent rate consistently in their ahl career?

[Alflives]

waste a second on aa guy who had no chance to be an impact pplayer? So second round picks have higher chance on becoming an impact player than 23yr olds who have been producing at a decent rate consistently in their ahl career?

yes.  At 23 Vey was proven to be an AHL player.  The pick had at least a chance, even if only a small one, to become an NHLer.

[Cowardrobertford]

yes.  At 23 Vey was proven to be an AHL player.  The pick had at least a chance, even if only a small one, to become an NHLer.

yyep, he had 11 goals, 23 points last year as a rookie, I don't know if you can't call that an NHLer but that's a better rookie season than most of the players. Plus, what percent does a 2nd pick even play the same # of games vey have played. 

 

[Alflives]

yyep, he had 11 goals, 23 points last year as a rookie, I don't know if you can't call that an NHLer but that's a better rookie season than most of the players. Plus, what percent does a 2nd pick even play the same # of games vey have played. 

 

that's a good point.  I accept that.  I wonder if he gained weight to try and become something he's not.  Maybe, if he gets lighter and quicker, that would be the better way to go ?

[The Lock]

Injuries kept Vey in. And Kassian did nothing at all to help his own cause. Add in two other rookie forwards making it this year and somebody has to sit. Really, is there anybody that deserves to be a healthy scratch right now? You could easily argue Gaunce didn't deserve to sit in the press box or be returned to Utica for that matter. Just too many forwards this year.

Pretty much this. It's not like Baertschi has even been playing bad. In fact, if you actually compare Vey's point per game total last year to Baerschi's ppg so far this year (albeit it's a small sample size of 10 games) Baertschi has more ppg. Not to mention the potential ceiling of Baertschi is great. If Baertschi can really find his game and become consistent at it, I bet most of the Baer haters would be giving him one big Baer-hug instead.

[Cowardrobertford]

that's a good point.  I accept that.  I wonder if he gained weight to try and become something he's not.  Maybe, if he gets lighter and quicker, that would be the better way to go ?

i think he did try to get better but I don't think it's the physical aspect of the game anymore, vey and baertchi knows they can do Better. It seems that their issues are mental and they don't have the proper mindset. 

[The Lock]

that's a good point.  I accept that.  I wonder if he gained weight to try and become something he's not.  Maybe, if he gets lighter and quicker, that would be the better way to go ?

Consider Sven is 5 foot 11 and 190 pounds, I doubt it would be beneficial for him to get lighter.

Coward is right, it's more of the mental side of things at this point. In Sven's case, I really don't blame him actually. He's had a rough start in the NHL with the Flames and it's likely created an extra obstacle mentally for him.