Discussion: Baertschi losing favour with Willie

[Alflives]

That makes no sense, because we could just play Jensen on the left side, and saved a draft pick for a D-man. 

I don't think JB thinks much of Jensen, or he would have done that.

[ice orca]

Baertschi needs to play on the 2nd unit pp. The guy has skills and could really shine with the extra space. Instead we have Burrows and Sutter on the PP. 

I would rather have McCann on the 2nd pp.

[Googlie]

Baertschi is a stop-gap until Lucic signs.

Are you certain Vancouver is even on Lucic's radar now?  He seems to have found his niche since they put him with Carter, a RH Center (like Krejci is),  I get the LA stations here in Palm Springs and they are raving about their new "70's line" and are expecting ML to be offered a contract extension sometime during the season.

[86Viking]

wonder if WD would try baertschi with mccann and dorsett. Sven is a disher and mccann has a great shot. Dorsett is there "back up" that can play a 200ft game

 

Might be worth trying that line out?

[Me_]

Are you certain Vancouver is even on Lucic's radar now?  He seems to have found his niche since they put him with Carter, a RH Center (like Krejci is),  I get the LA stations here in Palm Springs and they are raving about their new "70's line" and are expecting ML to be offered a contract extension sometime during the season.

Until that contract is signed, all options are open. Lucic is a great hockey player. He'll do great anywhere he plays.

[hockeyking]

Baertschi needs to play on the 2nd unit pp. The guy has skills and could really shine with the extra space. Instead we have Burrows and Sutter on the PP. 

I don't know what your talking about  from the start of the season to the Detroit game he was on the 2nd pp unit. He just did nothing while on the pp all of his play was from the top of the circle then, down low to horvat or up top to the defense.

[Mattrek]

I guess I'm alone in my thinking, but I'm pretty happy with Baertschi. Yes he still has things to learn, but he's doing the right things on the ice now that will lead him to be successful down the road. I'm not usually a betting man, but I bet by the end of this season we'll all be praising how good of a player he is and CDC will change their tune.

In my short time on these boards it seems to me that once an opinion is formed about a player it becomes nearly impossible to change. This is happening now with the whipping boys of Luca Sbisa, Alex Burrows and Sven Baertschi. It's like a player can't do anything to improve their play to get out of the dog house.

Sbisa is massively improved from last season and though he does make mistakes from time to time he's developing nicely into the top 4 forward JB expects him to become. Remember he's still young as a defenceman and has a lot of development left.

Coming from someone who thought we should trade Burrows and that he had gone past his prime I'm very glad to be wrong. No one should be able to complain about him right now. He deserves every penny he's making currently as the number two player on our team in the points standings. He's much improved and looks like he has a jump in his step again, which is awesome to see.

That leads me to Sven. Yes he hasn't put up points the way we've wanted him to yet, but as I tried to explain in an earlier thread it's actually far harder for a player in another team's system to get traded to a new team and adapt then it is one who grows up with the system from day one. He's been just slightly off with his timing and plays, but that will come later as he builds chemistry with his linemates. He's not a liability on the ice as proven with his plus/minus score of +1. The goals and points will come with someone as talented as he is. Oh yes and need I remind you he's playing under 10 minutes per game? He'll be fine just you wait and see.

[tyhee]

I guess I'm alone in my thinking, but I'm pretty happy with Baertschi. Yes he still has things to learn, but he's doing the right things on the ice now that will lead him to be successful down the road. I'm not usually a betting man, but I bet by the end of this season we'll all be praising how good of a player he is and CDC will change their tune.

 .......

Baertschi's advanced stats would support your thinking about him, though the season is young so the sample size small.

According to hockey-reference.com, he's + 1, relative Corsi of + 4.8 and FF% Rel of + 3.6. Hockeystats.com have him 12th among 13 Canuck forwards with 50+ minutes played at 5 on 5 in pts/60 minutes, ahead of only Horvat, 8th among Canuck forwards in GF%, 1st by a large margin in CF%RelTM and 1st in FF%RelTM.  One can argue whether he's made much of a contribution but pretty clearly the Canucks are doing ok while he's on the ice at even strength.

He isn't physical and is in a scoring drought, but there's reason to have hope for his future performance.

[smokes]

I am a bit disappointed in Baertschi's play as of late, he seems more like that guy who is just playing not to make a mistake. He is playing like his confidence is shot to hell just worried about making that mistake. He looks nothing like the creative Baertschi that was buzzing around the net last year. With WD placing so much emphasis on trusting his players in situations Baertschi is obviously not one who is trusted. He knows this, and nothing much can lower self confidence than lack of the coaches trust. Baertschi seems like a player who loses confidence pretty easily. See career in Calgary and why he was traded here. With Guance and Shink coming up the ranks, I think Baertschi going to go the way of a Micheal Grabner. He meshed really well with Green in Utica thus his success there so he can do well until the right coach. Unfortunately WD doesn't seem like that coach which is no ones fault. Since Not really fitting in here but can maybe do a little something if he can find the right coach elsewhere.

[hobart16]

I guess I'm alone in my thinking, but I'm pretty happy with Baertschi. Yes he still has things to learn, but he's doing the right things on the ice now that will lead him to be successful down the road. I'm not usually a betting man, but I bet by the end of this season we'll all be praising how good of a player he is and CDC will change their tune.

You aren't alone.  I can see how some of the optics with Baer aren't always great as he gets pushed around occasionally and hasn't had some of the sparkling finishes McCann has had so he looks worse by comparison.  But preseason he did well, last year in Utica he was almost always the best player on the ice after Markstrom, so I don't think the Canucks are doing anything wrong with him.  

A lot of push from below with Shinkaruk, Gaunce, Grenier, Jensen, Vey, Kenins all trying to find a place in the Canucks lineup next to the rookies along with Baertschi.  He has to be nervous.   

[TOMapleLaughs]

Baertschi's advanced stats would support your thinking about him, though the season is young so the sample size small.

According to hockey-reference.com, he's + 1, relative Corsi of + 4.8 and FF% Rel of + 3.6. Hockeystats.com have him 12th among 13 Canuck forwards with 50+ minutes played at 5 on 5 in pts/60 minutes, ahead of only Horvat, 8th among Canuck forwards in GF%, 1st by a large margin in CF%RelTM and 1st in FF%RelTM.  One can argue whether he's made much of a contribution but pretty clearly the Canucks are doing ok while he's on the ice at even strength.

He isn't physical and is in a scoring drought, but there's reason to have hope for his future performance.

When are we as fans collectively going to figure out that these stats are useless?  

[Fred65]

When are we as fans collectively going to figure out that these stats are useless?  

As Ferraro called it where is the stats fro the player that comes off a board battle usually in possesion of the puck ...where's that stat... mostly stats are used for justification for an existing belief

[TOMapleLaughs]

As Ferraro called it where is the stats fro the player that comes off a board battle usually in possesion of the puck ...where's that stat... mostly stats are used for justification for an existing belief

That's one scenario for sure.  Usually the defense about blatantly inaccurate analysis is 'sample size.'

While i'm sure teams have their own set of stats that are useful, the set and analysis that is constantly fed to the fans are garbage.  I'm wondering when the fans will collectively realize that though and make them irrelevant in public discussion.  Or are we too stuck in the mythology that published fancy stats have some sort of value, and we like sounding technical?

[lmm]

When are we as fans collectively going to figure out that these stats are useless?  

nothing gets me scrolling past faster than the word corsi

[EdgarM]

I guess I'm alone in my thinking, but I'm pretty happy with Baertschi. Yes he still has things to learn, but he's doing the right things on the ice now that will lead him to be successful down the road. I'm not usually a betting man, but I bet by the end of this season we'll all be praising how good of a player he is and CDC will change their tune.

In my short time on these boards it seems to me that once an opinion is formed about a player it becomes nearly impossible to change. This is happening now with the whipping boys of Luca Sbisa, Alex Burrows and Sven Baertschi. It's like a player can't do anything to improve their play to get out of the dog house.

Sbisa is massively improved from last season and though he does make mistakes from time to time he's developing nicely into the top 4 forward JB expects him to become. Remember he's still young as a defenceman and has a lot of development left.

Coming from someone who thought we should trade Burrows and that he had gone past his prime I'm very glad to be wrong. No one should be able to complain about him right now. He deserves every penny he's making currently as the number two player on our team in the points standings. He's much improved and looks like he has a jump in his step again, which is awesome to see.

That leads me to Sven. Yes he hasn't put up points the way we've wanted him to yet, but as I tried to explain in an earlier thread it's actually far harder for a player in another team's system to get traded to a new team and adapt then it is one who grows up with the system from day one. He's been just slightly off with his timing and plays, but that will come later as he builds chemistry with his linemates. He's not a liability on the ice as proven with his plus/minus score of +1. The goals and points will come with someone as talented as he is. Oh yes and need I remind you he's playing under 10 minutes per game? He'll be fine just you wait and see.

When you find yourself making excuses you should reconsider your assessment.

[tyhee]

As Ferraro called it where is the stats fro the player that comes off a board battle usually in possesion of the puck ...where's that stat... mostly stats are used for justification for an existing belief

There are those that simply don't believe in advanced stats, and I'm not here to convince them.  I disagree with them completely, but it's as if we're speaking different languages.

Ferraro's comment does make a point in that there is no stat for something that is important. 

However, Corsi, Fenwick and even GF% measure how the team does while a player is on the ice.  Goals by the player, assists by the player and board battles won by the player aren't measured as if they are useful, the team as a whole will do better in the team stats.

[shinker]

When are we as fans collectively going to figure out that these stats are useless?  

no kidding, why do ppl keep bringing up these "advanced stats" to support there cases?  Just watch the friggen game ffs, everything you need to know is happening on the ice in front of you.  They can't back up their case with goals, assist, and points so they keep bringing up these arbitrary stats.  FTR I'm not saying X player needs X amount of points to be effective, just like these useless corsi stats, they don't mean $&!#, just watch the damn game and see for yourself.

[snipes2539]

no kidding, why do ppl keep bringing up these "advanced stats" to support there cases?  Just watch the friggen game ffs, everything you need to know is happening on the ice in front of you.  They can't back up their case with goals, assist, and points so they keep bringing up these arbitrary stats.  FTR I'm not saying X player needs X amount of points to be effective, just like these useless corsi stats, they don't mean $&!#, just watch the damn game and see for yourself.

Well the other night Garret gave the 1st star to Sbisa.....so even those who earn they living by watching the game can see some pretty strange things too.

[Maniwaki Canuck]

Willie had plenty of praise for Baertschi last night and specifically noted his defensive play.  This and Baertschi's high-end skill are where the Vey comparisons are off, IMHO.  He pretty clearly isn't losing the coach's favour, in any absolute sense even if there may have been some bumps in the road and some learning curves.  If and when Sven gets comfortable in this lineup, we are going to be an even stronger young team than we already are.  It's happening much quicker and more comprehensively than most of us were expecting.  Rather than dwell on the few things that aren't coming up roses for us, I'm happy to just enjoy this, including the prospect that there's more to come from Baertschi.

[alfstonker]

Well the other night Garret gave the 1st star to Sbisa.....so even those who earn they living by watching the game can see some pretty strange things too.

Most people agreed with him though and what's more irrespective of the score against Flyers that D missed Sbisa big time. They were getting pushed all over the place.

Benning is more and more being proved right with Sbisa, he is becoming a mainstay of our D and when he is not there it shows.