Our Plan Has Failed

[BowtieCanuck]

2 hours ago, LolClarkson said:

You were the one playing the Clarkson comparo game in your first post. Not me.
 

 

LOL. Did you quote me and then change my quote? Are you serious? Dude, you seriously want to win an argument that bad?

Oh boy, I thought I'd seen it all on web forums.

[LaBamba]

10 hours ago, Honky Cat said:

Sutter,Baertschi,Granlund,Eriksson......only 3 goals between them in 12 games....Wow.!...Who could have predicted that?

 

Me

[hearditall]

11 minutes ago, baumerman77 said:

Being "scary" and "tough" and willing to fight does not win hockey games in today's NHL. Skilled players who score goals and prevent goals do. Remember last night? Leafs were the worst team last year. They added skill and are doing better this year. We were slightly better than the leafs last year and we added toughness and grit and we are worse.

 

I find it amazing some people think Benning's old school physical hockey needs to be more extreme. Benning and that philosophy goes against where the NHL has been trending for the last 5 years (especially the last 2).

How does guys like:

 

Getzlaf, Perry, Pacioretty, Benn, Monahan, Coyle, Simmonds, Kesler, Lucic, Carter, Iginla, Landeskog, Backes, Weber, Burns, Seabrook, Maroon, Marchand, Ferklund, Martin, Engelland, Byfuglien, Tkatchuk, Mitchell, Chara, Crosby, Toews, Schieffle, Gallagher, Ovechkin, Kunitz, Clutterbuck, PK Subban, Kronwall, Abdelkater, Toffolli, Roussel, Kadri, Dorsett, Kreider, Shaw,   etc. etc. etc.  to name a few...

 

hurt having on your roster?

 

I think we are missing a few of these types in the forward group & yes there scoring too...  

[LaBamba]

1 hour ago, hearditall said:

How does guys like:

 

Getzlaf, Perry, Benn, Weber, Crosby, Toews, Ovechkin, Dorsett

 

hurt having on your roster?

 

 

One of these don't belong. 

 

I'll give you 3 guesses. 

[hearditall]

21 minutes ago, LaBamba said:

 

One of these don't belong. 

 

I'll give you 3 guesses. 

He's the only guy we have in the system that can play his role. Wasn't talking about his 2.6 mill cap hit etc. Still need players like this type or U seen what happens... Saturday night...Not saying Dorsett is ideal guy but he's all we got at this point...

That's why Edm got Maroon, Lucic, Pouliet.

Montreal got Shaw, Weber 

Toronto got Martin.

etc. etc.

 

[N4ZZY]

17 hours ago, iinatcc said:

 

I think it's too soon to talk about Nolan Patrick (heck even if Vancouver becomes dead last the team only has a 20% of landing him) but being an excellent 2nd line center is his ceiling than I would be happy with that. That means he can still be a very good first line player provided the team has the right pieces. I mean my memory is a bit foggy but people were expecting Krejci, Getzlaf, Giroux, Datsyuk, or Kopitar to be either elite1st line centers or 1st line centers of cup winning teams?

 

 

Well, that's where the draft is kind of a crapshoot right. And we are entering into a year where it's a weak draft to boot. 

It depends on what Benning is looking to do. If another club wins the lottery, and we land the 2nd overall pick, then I'd seriously also consider taking Timothy Liligren. 

 

[LaBamba]

18 minutes ago, hearditall said:

He's the only guy we have in the system that can play his role. Wasn't talking about his 2.6 mill cap hit etc. Still need players like this type or U seen what happens... Saturday night...Not saying Dorsett is ideal guy but he's all we got at this point...

That's why Edm got Maroon, Lucic, Pouliet.

Montreal got Shaw, Weber 

Toronto got Martin.

etc. etc.

 

 

You don't see a problem with naming off the Canadian Olympic team and Dorset to make the argument that we need more toughness? That's insanity. You had Crosby in that box. WTH man.  

 

We get our chances and we don't get crazy out shot. We just can't FINISH. Grit, isn't going to give you finish. We are getting to the net, we have the space. We need players who can make a goalie say to themselves "WTF just happened?!?!" 

[hearditall]

16 hours ago, hearditall said:

How does guys like:

 

Getzlaf, Perry, Pacioretty, Benn, Monahan, Coyle, Simmonds, Kesler, Lucic, Carter, Iginla, Landeskog, Backes, Weber, Burns, Seabrook, Maroon, Marchand, Ferklund, Martin, Engelland, Byfuglien, Tkatchuk, Mitchell, Chara, Crosby, Toews, Schieffle, Gallagher, Ovechkin, Kunitz, Clutterbuck, PK Subban, Kronwall, Abdelkater, Toffolli, Roussel, Kadri, Dorsett, Kreider, Shaw,   etc. etc. etc.  to name a few...

 

hurt having on your roster?

 

I think we are missing a few of these types in the forward group & yes there scoring too...  

These types meant more of the warrior type of guys. (not your top 6 as Granlund, Baercheese, Larsen, Sedin, Sedin, Eriksson.)

I said we need these types from line 1-4 in your line-up along with the Kanes, Tarasenkos, Gudreaus, etc. etc... Called balance. Wake up. Quit the BSing. It's old...

 

Yes I do prefer Team Canada guys. Cause when Playoffs Start it's another season. That's our problem, we don't have ANY in the top 6.

Name me a team that wins the Cup without Canadian Players? Toews, Seabrook, Keith, Crosby, Perry, Getzlaf, Kunitz, Marchand, Bergeron, Lucic, Carter, Doughty, J. Williams, W. Mitchell, Stamkos, M. Richards, B. Richards, Yzerman, Sakic, Messier, Lindros, Iginla, Pronger, Weber, Niedermeyer, S. Stevens,  etc. etc... 

 

Not your cup of tea, oh well....

 

[hearditall]

44 minutes ago, LaBamba said:

 

You don't see a problem with naming off the Canadian Olympic team and Dorset to make the argument that we need more toughness? That's insanity. You had Crosby in that box. WTH man.  

 

We get our chances and we don't get crazy out shot. We just can't FINISH. Grit, isn't going to give you finish. We are getting to the net, we have the space. We need players who can make a goalie say to themselves "WTF just happened?!?!" 

Is Crosby not tough to U??? Kid will drop his gloves or take a beating no fear player. eg. Gallagher, Perry, Kreider, Coyle....

Does Granlund Baercheese, Sedin Sedin, Eriksson, Rodin reflect those types????   

WTH man...

[VIC_CITY]

23 hours ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

So you are putting a lot of the onus on Jim Benning.  If there was one thing I really don't like about him, it is his arrogance or pride.  I sometimes feel as though he is too proud to admit his mistakes, and puts pressure on the coach and team to make sure his vision becomes reality.  I think he pressured WD to continue playing Vey and Virtanen.  He decided to not pull any trades last deadline because he did not feel like he was getting a fair deal.  He did not re-claim Emerson Etem even though he had every right and cause to do so.  

 

You just described every GM in the history of the NHL.

 

As to your other 2 points, Willie was never pressured into playing Vey. If anything it was the other way around and JB was pressured into acquiring Vey, as WD had him in Medicine Hat. 

 

And 28 other teams had an opportunity to claim Etem and didn't. So how does Benning take blame for that? There will be countless players on waivers that are equal to or better than Etem throughout the season. So really, who cares?

 

These boards are so negative sometimes. Everyone is looking for someone to blame. Can't we just accept the fact that we're realistically 2-3 years away from being a playoff team? There is no over night fix. Signing Eriksson probably didn't send the right message to the fans but hey, we're going to need a few veterans around for the rebuild so it's not a total loss. Plus ownership is trying to sell tickets. 

 

So relax people. Instead of asking for JB and WD's head on a stick, maybe try getting real with your own expectations. 

 

[Baggins]

1 hour ago, VIC_CITY said:

 

You just described every GM in the history of the NHL.

 

As to your other 2 points, Willie was never pressured into playing Vey. If anything it was the other way around and JB was pressured into acquiring Vey, as WD had him in Medicine Hat. 

 

And 28 other teams had an opportunity to claim Etem and didn't. So how does Benning take blame for that? There will be countless players on waivers that are equal to or better than Etem throughout the season. So really, who cares?

 

These boards are so negative sometimes. Everyone is looking for someone to blame. Can't we just accept the fact that we're realistically 2-3 years away from being a playoff team? There is no over night fix. Signing Eriksson probably didn't send the right message to the fans but hey, we're going to need a few veterans around for the rebuild so it's not a total loss. Plus ownership is trying to sell tickets. 

 

So relax people. Instead of asking for JB and WD's head on a stick, maybe try getting real with your own expectations. 

 

I don't think either way is true. It would only make sense for a GM to ask any of his staff about a player they are familiar with that becomes available. With our expanded scouting we do have AHL scouts who Benning also would have talked to. I somehow doubt Wiilie "pressured" JB to trade for a player he coached in junior 5 years previous and likely hadn't seen play since. More likely he just gave his opinion on the kids character and work ethic from when he coached him in junior.

 

I definitely agree with that last statement.

[Dr. Crossbar]

18 hours ago, Alflives said:

Brian Burke and Dave Nonis built a very good young core, which Mike Gillis was gifted.  I'm thinking if JB is fired, the guy who follows will be gifted much like Gillis was - with a very good young core.  GMs, who are building from the bottom up, need ten years to complete the job - not 3-5 years.  

True enough. Could very well happen that way. We're already three years in.

 

Hutton is 23. Stecher is 22. Horvat is 21. Tryamkin is 21. Virtanen is 20. Boeser is 19. Juolevi is 18. 

 

If you look at Virtanen, Boeser, and Juolevi, and how many more years before their prime, we're looking at least six to seven years. With three years already in the can, there's the ten years you mentioned.

 

By that time, a new GM would need to buy/add the necessary pieces to put us over the top with the core Benning put in place.

 

[LaBamba]

My heart bleeds for Utica. What a mess. 

[JM_]

The problem to me seems to be that Willie is going to play his system, regardless of the players or the opponent. He simply shuffles bodies into his plan, and rarely deviates from it. Its what makes him so easy for coaches like Babcock to beat.

 

Its been bugging me for a while now why Linden is so supportive of Willie - I don't think that JB or Linden really believe in the group they have, they believe more in the "system" and are hoping they can squeak into the playoffs by playing a disciplined system vs. working with the players skill sets.

 

Its clear to nearly everyone that Bo should be driving the offense and taking more face offs in the offensive zone, or playing Stecher,  keeping the twins and Loui together, etc etc. Trying to understand this teams nightly line ups by a talent assessment doesn't work, but it does by x's and o's and if it doesn't matter who's slotted into Williie's system.

 

So from that perspective, yes the plan has failed, but not because of the players. This season is going to be worse to watch than last years unfortunately unless Wlllie gets the boot and quick. If we end this road trip 4-10-1 and Willie remains at the helm the season is over.

[Johnny Shotgun]

Yes since 1970.   I believe they entered the league to win a Cup.   At least I hope they did...not just sell tickets and merchandise.

[LaBamba]

@J.R. said:

Those assets didn't simply vanish. They turned in to guys actually playing in the NHL who still will be when we're a competitive team again in a few years.We're barely 2+ years in...the cavalry's just getting out of bed and you guys are already panicking.

 

 You keep saying you want Benning to draft and develop but don't seem to realize that those guys need to clear their Jr./college/ etc commitments/requirements before they can play at the AHL level.

 

Zero context. Zero patience.

 

trust me JR I'm not panicking, everything I said was going to happen over the summer is happening. I have mentally prepared myself for this season 3 seasons ago. I fell fantastic. 

 

Also, what are we Obama? Keep blaming George bush for how F'd up the USA is after 8 years. 

 

Benning has had 3 summers to work with here. Why did we even buy the Utica comets? Seriously. Gaunce is the only full cycle player we harvested from the farm. That's unexceptionable for a team in our position. Chaput is our first forward call up after Benning had 3 freakin off seasons to build organizational depth. Seriously J.R when will the excuses run out? 

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, LaBamba said:

@J.R. said:

Those assets didn't simply vanish. They turned in to guys actually playing in the NHL who still will be when we're a competitive team again in a few years.We're barely 2+ years in...the cavalry's just getting out of bed and you guys are already panicking.

 

 You keep saying you want Benning to draft and develop but don't seem to realize that those guys need to clear their Jr./college/ etc commitments/requirements before they can play at the AHL level.

 

Zero context. Zero patience.

 

trust me JR I'm not panicking, everything I said was going to happen over the summer is happening. I have mentally prepared myself for this season 3 seasons ago. I fell fantastic. 

 

Also, what are we Obama? Keep blaming George bush for how F'd up the USA is after 8 years. 

 

Benning has had 3 summers to work with here. Why did we even buy the Utica comets? Seriously. Gaunce is the only full cycle player we harvested from the farm. That's unexceptionable for a team in our position. Chaput is our first forward call up after Benning had 3 freakin off seasons to build organizational depth. Seriously J.R when will the excuses run out? 

 

It's not an 'excuse', it's simply acknowledging time and what we had for a prospect pool (and early 20's players) prior to Benning arriving. You can't fix an entire NHL org from Jr. prospects, to AHL to NHL overnight. It just doesn't happen.

 

If in another 1-2 years we still have a sup par AHL team, by all means twist you little LaBamba panties up. Right now, you're WAY jumping the gun and panicking.

[jmahyoung]

The funny thing is, when we signed Eriksson for 6x6 the critics were all over us for being double minded- Eriksson wouldn't help us tank and draft high.

Now with 12 games under our belt, Eriksson is actually helping us tank with 0 goals! And sucking up cap space so we can't hire anyone else. What a move!

 

[LaBamba]

10 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

It's not an 'excuse', it's simply acknowledging time and what we had for a prospect pool (and early 20's players) prior to Benning arriving. You can't fix an entire NHL org from Jr. prospects, to AHL to NHL overnight. It just doesn't happen.

 

If in another 1-2 years we still have a sup par AHL team, by all means twist you little LaBamba panties up. Right now, you're WAY jumping the gun and panicking.

 

I am looking at my abacus. 

 

JB has been here 3 years so that's 3 beads over. It takes 2 years after being drafted to play professional hockey so let's take 2 beads away. Ok J.R, I'm left with 1 bead here representing Utica eligible players at his first draft. I'll add another one to represent all and Draft picks he wasted that 1st year he got Dorset and Vey with. Maybe another one to represent all the picks or prospects he could have manufactured by getting rid of some more fading core pieces. 

 

According to my abucas its all JB's fault. 

[Alflives]

42 minutes ago, Dr. Crossbar said:

True enough. Could very well happen that way. We're already three years in.

 

Hutton is 23. Stecher is 22. Horvat is 21. Tryamkin is 21. Virtanen is 20. Boeser is 19. Juolevi is 18. 

 

If you look at Virtanen, Boeser, and Juolevi, and how many more years before their prime, we're looking at least six to seven years. With three years already in the can, there's the ten years you mentioned.

 

By that time, a new GM would need to buy/add the necessary pieces to put us over the top with the core Benning put in place.

 

We drafted the Twins in '99, and then Kelser in '03, then got Luongo by trading a fourth overall pick Dman in '06.  Then we got really good in what 2009 or so?  That building took 10 years for us to really be a Cup competitive team.  Then we were really good for 3 to 5 years.  Now we need to go through the process again.  The biggest flaw with this current rebuild is we don't have the elite replacements for the Twins' offence.  They were consistent 80+ point guys during our best seasons.  Maybe Boeser is one?  Maybe we get one more at the coming draft?