Canucks' Team Toughness

[chickenman92]

28th in hits, 23rd in major penalties (usually fights)...I'd say they could use some more grit.

 

Mind you, Chicago is last on the league in hits and 28th in majors, so you can be awesome and win Cups without "grit & toughness".  

 

I would say, Vancouver's biggest problem with grit and toughness is nearly 20% of their hits comes from the No. 5 and No. 6 defencemen. What this means is for about 70-80% of the game the opponents don't need to worry about being hit, because the only guys hitting are on the bench. 

Edited April 3, 2017 by chickenman92

[The Lock]

1 hour ago, chickenman92 said:

28th in hits, 23rd in major penalties (usually fights)...I'd say they could use some more grit.

 

Mind you, Chicago is last on the league in hits and 28th in majors, so you can be awesome and win Cups without "grit & toughness".  

 

I would say, Vancouver's biggest problem with grit and toughness is nearly 20% of their hits comes from the No. 5 and No. 6 defencemen. What this means is for about 70-80% of the game the opponents don't need to worry about being hit, because the only guys hitting are on the bench. 

I honestly would wait and see how our prospects develop betore even thinking about adding grit. We've seen so much change that these stats could easily be different in a couple of years with our prospects competing for spots. A rebuild is a rather difficult time to worry about the fine details in my opinion.

[PuckYa]

10 hours ago, DIBdaQUIB said:

Everything in balance.  We lack offense and size/toughness.  We are consistently out matched physically.  Our skill players are targeted mercilessly because we have. I answer and won't stand up for eachother.

The team needs to bring in talent but it has to also add size and a physical presence.  

Bette to have big rough guys that punish the other team than a bunch of tweeters like Chaput and megna who don't produce nor do they play physical.  

I do agree with you that we are too small up front at the moment. But we do have a few guys coming up with decent size. Hopefully Jim can find some more to add to the group that we have.

 

Boeser 6'1'' has good size

Gaudette 6'1" seems to have size

Horvat 6'0" is solid

Virtanen 6'1" solid kid

Labate 6'5" gritty & willing

Lockwood 5'11" but plays a gritty game

Patrick 6'3"  Getzlaf?

 

Also Camarossa was picked up for this but got injured & we were without Dorsett & Gubranson who were acquired for this reason & were injured for the most part as well. Of course due to our Canuck luck sometimes. lol. 

This is also why the Canucks have asked Tryamkin to step it up in that matter as well, & with maturity I believe he will. With those 3 in the line-up (healthy) & Virtanen coming along that will help quite a bit in that area & we should be ok.

I'm in the camp to sign a Peluso type as well if we can especially with all the young players coming along. I doubt there are any Maroon's or Lucic's available this summer?

 

I would like to see something like this on our 4th line to give the kids some peace of mind:

Labate  Camarossa  Peluso

Dorsett

With Gubranson Sbisa & Tryamkin on the back end, that should fix the problem with toughness.

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by CoolCanucklehead

[JeremyCuddles]

15 hours ago, Elvistein said:

Soft is when you don't push back at all when a guy uses your head for a punching bag...  Soft is allowing Thornton to rub his stink finger under your nose when talking to the ref during the playoffs and not doing a thing about it.  I am not saying that they aren't skilled or great leaders on and off the ice.  I am saying that the next choice of a Captain needs to be a leader with grit, that plays hard in all areas of the ice and a guy with a bit of an edge that when pushed too far will stick up for himself or his teammates.  Horvat can be that guy!

I don't necessarily equate toughness with grit. You can be tough without being gritty in my opinion. I have no problem with the Sedins not being gritty and being our leaders. Although having a Linden type leader is my personal dream. Bo? I sure hope so.

[IBatch]

7 hours ago, WeneedLumme said:

Yes, I know Wild Thing was a better fighter than Dorsett, he was almost like Rypper. He wasn't big enough to take on the heavyweights of the time, but to be honest, I wouldn't mind having him in the Canuck lineup now, because he was also not that bad a player. But the other tough guys, Gino, Brash and Crowder, weren't skilled/quick enough to justify a lineup spot in today's NHL. Adding guys like that might protect the Canucks skilled players, but wouldn't necessarily help to win any more games.

So true.  The game is reverting back to what it was like pre-expansion.  There were guys like Ferguson the grandfather of enforcers but he could play.  Before the Bullies and the subsequent arms race teams rolled four lines.  The original six days the leading fighters would usually have less then ten figths a year.  Nothing wrong with that it doesn't mean the players were soft it because they certainly were not it just meant they took care of business themselves when the gloves dropped.  Couldn't imagine the Sedins doing this but we are seeing guys do this that you wouldn't normally expect it from.

[IBatch]

17 hours ago, Alflives said:

Gino and Brashear.  Now that's tough.

I remember giggling a little when we brought in Brashear who at the time was considered a timid reluctant goon from Montreal and wouldn't open up and fight often.  I was giggling because I saw a highlight that blew me away the previous year of him punching a guy so fast and hard he couldn't get going - right into the players bench. I knew we had a special enforcer.  Then he proceeded to decimate our division-conference-league leading in fight majors and don't recall him losing ONE scrap all year.

Guys were often left bleeding and dazed skating towards the wrong box or out for repairs.  Tuff Guys magazine named him fighter of the year and the year before he didn't crack the top thirty where as Gino was 13 th.

I know Gino's days were numbered especially because Brashear was a better skater and could score in junior...And they were.  

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, N7Nucks said:

I don't necessarily equate toughness with grit. You can be tough without being gritty in my opinion. I have no problem with the Sedins not being gritty and being our leaders. Although having a Linden type leader is my personal dream. Bo? I sure hope so.

Linden is a good example of being tough without much fighting ability... Remember when he was moved from the wing to center in the first place to deal with a big hulking Otto in Calgary.  We were a tough team with guys like Hunter Odjick Antoski Momesso Diduck Babych Murzyn ( who won a cup with Otto in 89) and has size throughout the lineup but none of our centers could handle this guy.  Linden was a point a gamer on the wing and racking up 30 plus goal seasons at an alarming rate ( I truly believe if he never moved to center and was saddled with a two way game later in his career he would easily have 400 career goals with an outside chance at 500) but nobody could handle Otto.

They battled like two bulls all series and we came out on top.  A brilliant move on Quins part.  Otto hated Linden and I wouldn't be surprised if the feeling was mutual after the pounding he eventually took a couple times when the gloves did come off.  A great example of grit and toughness with no fighting ability.

[DIBdaQUIB]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Linden is a good example of being tough without much fighting ability... Remember when he was moved from the wing to center in the first place to deal with a big hulking Otto in Calgary.  We were a tough team with guys like Hunter Odjick Antoski Momesso Diduck Babych Murzyn ( who won a cup with Otto in 89) and has size throughout the lineup but none of our centers could handle this guy.  Linden was a point a gamer on the wing and racking up 30 plus goal seasons at an alarming rate ( I truly believe if he never moved to center and was saddled with a two way game later in his career he would easily have 400 career goals with an outside chance at 500) but nobody could handle Otto.

They battled like two bulls all series and we came out on top.  A brilliant move on Quins part.  Otto hated Linden and I wouldn't be surprised if the feeling was mutual after the pounding he eventually took a couple times when the gloves did come off.  A great example of grit and toughness with no fighting ability.

My brother played against Linden before Linden made the jump to the bigs.  He hated playing him not because he was a goon but because he played a "heavy" game.  He said, Linden's hits hurt and took a huge toll on you over the course of a game.  Every time you got near him Linden would lean on you and make you work hard to find space and time.    That is what we lack in our forward group.  We have some guys who will throw hits now and then but we don't have "heavy" players who make the other team pay regularly just for being on the ice.  Who wear teams down by constantly using size and aggression to make playing uncomfortable and tiring.

Having those guys on your 4th line does no good as those guys are usually only out for 8-9 minutes and seldom face the top 6 of the other team, who are most likely to do damage. YOu need size and physical presence throughout your line up. ..not goons, just big, tough, physical players.

[DIBdaQUIB]

8 hours ago, CoolCanucklehead said:

I do agree with you that we are too small up front at the moment. But we do have a few guys coming up with decent size. Hopefully Jim can find some more to add to the group that we have.

 

Boeser 6'1'' has good size

Gaudette 6'1" seems to have size

Horvat 6'0" is solid

Virtanen 6'1" solid kid

Labate 6'5" gritty & willing

Lockwood 5'11" but plays a gritty game

Patrick 6'3"  Getzlaf?

 

Also Camarossa was picked up for this but got injured & we were without Dorsett & Gubranson who were acquired for this reason & were injured for the most part as well. Of course due to our Canuck luck sometimes. lol. 

This is also why the Canucks have asked Tryamkin to step it up in that matter as well, & with maturity I believe he will. With those 3 in the line-up (healthy) & Virtanen coming along that will help quite a bit in that area & we should be ok.

I'm in the camp to sign a Peluso type as well if we can especially with all the young players coming along. I doubt there are any Maroon's or Lucic's available this summer?

 

I would like to see something like this on our 4th line to give the kids some peace of mind:

Labate  Camarossa  Peluso

Dorsett

With Gubranson Sbisa & Tryamkin on the back end, that should fix the problem with toughness.

 

WE have some good size now and coming true.  How those players use that size is the most important thing and that remains to be seen.  Boeser is a decent size but he doesn't play a "heavy " style of game. 

Like I said in an earlier post, having your physical presence on the 4th is of limited value.  YOu need to have it throughout the line up to be effective.  That is why Edmonton right now is effective with Lucic, Maroon and Kassian in the top 9.  There is no opportunity to let your guard down or take liberties.  Watching Edmonton the other night, the instant any scrum involved a skill player (McDavid) one of the big boys jumped right in the middle and the star player just skated away.  That , is what we lack and it is what provides the time and space for the skilled guys to do their thing.  FInding guys that can play that role and be effective in the top 9 is the challenge.

 

On the back end, we should be okay as you point out.  I have noticed Hutton using his size more and more as well.  It is up front where we have no answer to physical teams.

[PuckYa]

3 hours ago, DIBdaQUIB said:

WE have some good size now and coming true.  How those players use that size is the most important thing and that remains to be seen.  Boeser is a decent size but he doesn't play a "heavy " style of game. 

Like I said in an earlier post, having your physical presence on the 4th is of limited value.  YOu need to have it throughout the line up to be effective.  That is why Edmonton right now is effective with Lucic, Maroon and Kassian in the top 9.  There is no opportunity to let your guard down or take liberties.  Watching Edmonton the other night, the instant any scrum involved a skill player (McDavid) one of the big boys jumped right in the middle and the star player just skated away.  That , is what we lack and it is what provides the time and space for the skilled guys to do their thing.  FInding guys that can play that role and be effective in the top 9 is the challenge.

 

On the back end, we should be okay as you point out.  I have noticed Hutton using his size more and more as well.  It is up front where we have no answer to physical teams.

I agree & that's why I asked if there was any Maroon or Lucic types available this summer? If not hopefully a prospect comes along to fill that void or maybe a trade can bring that element?

I believe Jim sees this weakness as well in our roster. Drafting Virtanen, Tryamkin, Olsen, Lockwood, etc. & signing Sbisa, Prust, Dorsett, Camarossa, Labate, etc. shows that he sees this.

Gubranson, Dorsett, Camarossa injuries have hampered the toughness of this team but I still feel a few more throughout the line-up would help like you say. Definitely a tougher task to find those types that can contribute in the top 6 on a regular basis. 

That's why I was a fan of the Kassian trade at the time & had no problem with the Virtanen draft pick. 

[IBatch]

10 hours ago, DIBdaQUIB said:

My brother played against Linden before Linden made the jump to the bigs.  He hated playing him not because he was a goon but because he played a "heavy" game.  He said, Linden's hits hurt and took a huge toll on you over the course of a game.  Every time you got near him Linden would lean on you and make you work hard to find space and time.    That is what we lack in our forward group.  We have some guys who will throw hits now and then but we don't have "heavy" players who make the other team pay regularly just for being on the ice.  Who wear teams down by constantly using size and aggression to make playing uncomfortable and tiring.

Having those guys on your 4th line does no good as those guys are usually only out for 8-9 minutes and seldom face the top 6 of the other team, who are most likely to do damage. YOu need size and physical presence throughout your line up. ..not goons, just big, tough, physical players.

Absolutely.  How many guys on our team have hit guys through the GLASS before?  Linden did it more than once and  he was on the ice for 20plus minutes a game as well as others that could do the same.

 

Ohlund could hit like a tree. So could Jovo and Bertuzzi. Edler started out hitting too but something changed.  During the entire Sedin era we've only had a handful of guys that punished on the forecheck and I cant wait until that changes.

[kingofsurrey]

54 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Absolutely.  How many guys on our team have hit guys through the GLASS before?  Linden did it more than once and  he was on the ice for 20plus minutes a game as well as others that could do the same.

 

Ohlund could hit like a tree. So could Jovo and Bertuzzi. Edler started out hitting too but something changed.  During the entire Sedin era we've only had a handful of guys that punished on the forecheck and I cant wait until that changes.

Really want to see Virtanen on the big team.  The guy hits like a truck.  Canucks really need Virt and what he brings.....

[Salacious Crumb]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Absolutely.  How many guys on our team have hit guys through the GLASS before?  Linden did it more than once and  he was on the ice for 20plus minutes a game as well as others that could do the same.

 

Ohlund could hit like a tree. So could Jovo and Bertuzzi. Edler started out hitting too but something changed.  During the entire Sedin era we've only had a handful of guys that punished on the forecheck and I cant wait until that changes.

As great as the twins have been they don't offer much pushback. Regrettably. The coming culture change has been too long coming, 

[Baggins]

On 2017-04-02 at 2:13 PM, WeneedLumme said:

You missed the point. Of those players listed from the 20 years ago Canucks lineup, Walker was smaller than Dorsett and was consequently just as much of a deterrent. The other 4 players, while big and tough, scored a TOTAL of 37 points COMBINED that year.

 

Anyone who thinks that adding several big tough players to the lineup with that level of productivity would help the Canucks win more games in today's NHL is deluded.

Couldn't be worse than...

 

Chaput 8 pts

Gaunce 5 pts

Skille 9 pts

Megna 8 pts

 

I'd take Brashear over any of of them. Not only could skate, hit, and provide a solid beat down, his worst year in Vancouver he scored 8 goals.

[WeneedLumme]

1 hour ago, Baggins said:

Couldn't be worse than...

 

Chaput 8 pts

Gaunce 5 pts

Skille 9 pts

Megna 8 pts

 

I'd take Brashear over any of of them. Not only could skate, hit, and provide a solid beat down, his worst year in Vancouver he scored 8 goals.

Yeah, if I had to pick one tough guy from Canucks history, it would be Brash. I don't remember ever seeing him lose a fight. But replacing all those guys with guys like Gino and Crowder and Dana would make the team significantly slower and not more competitive. 

 

And Chaput, Skille and Megna imo are just temporary placeholders until the young prospects are ready for prime time. I don't really think they are part of the final plans for the team, any more than several enforcers would be.

Edited April 4, 2017 by WeneedLumme

[lmm]

Some terms I wish CDC would stop using:

Team Toughness

Grit

Sandpaper

and worst of all Pushback.

Team Toughness is a left over from Nonis. When we had "team toughness" we had Byron Ritchie, Brad Isbister and Matt Cooke. Does anyone really want to go back to that?

Grit is what you paint on your stairs so your shoes don't slip.

Sandpaper falls apart when it gets used and especially when it gets wet.

Pushback is what happens when you are already being pushed, hoping for a net "0" outcome.

 

I would prefer:

Aggression, which is toughness with intent, initiation, hitting, taking the lead in rough play.

Aggression is Ferland hitting every Canuck on every play, Marchand punching Daniel until Daniel takes a penalty, Matt Martin, Sean Thornton, Donald Brashear, Ryan Reeves doing what they do best.

Push, rather than pushback, our old friend Burkie calls it truculence.

 

If someone invites you to a street fight, what are you going to do, go out to the shed and reach for a stack of your best 80 grit? Darn it the other guy showed up with a sledge hammar.

[PhillipBlunt]

10 minutes ago, lmm said:

Some terms I wish CDC would stop using:

Team Toughness

Grit

Sandpaper

and worst of all Pushback.

Team Toughness is a left over from Nonis. When we had "team toughness" we had Byron Ritchie, Brad Isbister and Matt Cooke. Does anyone really want to go back to that?

Grit is what you paint on your stairs so your shoes don't slip.

Sandpaper falls apart when it gets used and especially when it gets wet.

Pushback is what happens when you are already being pushed, hoping for a net "0" outcome.

 

I would prefer:

Aggression, which is toughness with intent, initiation, hitting, taking the lead in rough play.

Aggression is Ferland hitting every Canuck on every play, Marchand punching Daniel until Daniel takes a penalty, Matt Martin, Sean Thornton, Donald Brashear, Ryan Reeves doing what they do best.

Push, rather than pushback, our old friend Burkie calls it truculence.

 

If someone invites you to a street fight, what are you going to do, go out to the shed and reach for a stack of your best 80 grit? Darn it the other guy showed up with a sledge hammar.

Physicality is another sound term. I agree that the terms used are pretty clichéd and tiresome. Mainly, I hope this team has a mentality going forward, especially once the remaining vets from the previous core are gone, that is a pack mentality. Fighting for each other, with zero trepidation or fear. Having the physical strength and endurance to take a hit, but also the realization that if you don't fight back, they'll continue to abuse and pummel you.

[SilentSam]

Pedan.

[WeneedLumme]

3 hours ago, SilentSam said:

Pedan.

Yeah, we've all been waiting for Pedan. But if Green doesn't think he's good enough to dress every game for the Comets, what are the chances of him being NHL quality?

[SilentSam]

I think Pedan has been frustrated, he traveled with the Canucks earlier this year, and of course WD, was reluctant to play him.

At least the Canucks haven't risked losing him on the waiver to move him back up.

i hope Pedan is seen as a special player next year, and is allowed to rotate in as the 7-8 D man.

His edge and toughness is needed, his game will get better at the NHL level, just needs some consecutive games to prove himself with other NHL D men.