Chemistry and Splitting the Sedins

[canuckpuckluck1]

I have no proof on this thought process. Let me say I am significantly older than Daniel and Henrik, but I am finding each day slightly more difficult to focus and am gradually losing depth perception. Could eyesight being an issue for these guys?? Especially with Daniel, as he continues to whiff on simple passes. 

Its not a blindness thing, but more depth perception as I mentioned, it slows your timing considerably as you need to concentrate harder on making sure everything lines up. I have greater issue with this when I play football at night as opposed to during the day, but it gets harder for me each day. I need glasses to read but not for driving but I have to concentrate harder to drive.

If that is what is effecting them it's not going to get any better. 

As I said pure speculation with no substance at all, just an observation 

[luckylager]

I'm in the no camp for splitting them 5v5. It's okay to have one guy way faster than his linemates, it's not okay to have one guy, your "playmaker", coming in behind the play. 

 

I'd love to see them split up on the PP though.

[JamesB]

21 hours ago, Hectic said:

Love the post, +1. Personally, before the season started I thought that splitting the Sedins 5 on 5 and having them together 4 on 4 and on the PP would have been a good strategy. Right now, I think that splitting them 5 on 5 would be an appropriate option given their lack of success so far throughout the season. I agree with your concept of type 2 chemistry, and agree that their weaknesses only compound each other. I also feel that if they weren't playing 5 on 5 together, that when they did get the opportunity on the PP they would have more urgency and killer instinct, given the fact that they wouldn't have been playing together for the entire game. 

 

Although it seems that Horvat, Baertschi, and Boeser have really good chemistry, personally I feel that Daniel Sedin would be a better option than Baertschi on that line. Burmistrov centering Baertschi and Virtanen (and the Henrik playing with Gagner/Vanek) would be the other options. The Sutter line is definitely untouchable at this point. My biggest concern though is when Eriksson comes back.. I really like our forward group right now. 

 

15 hours ago, Tre Mac said:

The lines can use some tweaking.  I know I am going to get flamed for this but Horvat has come down with Kesleritis, doing too much on his own and not utilizing his wingers, especially on the PP.  Unless that is the strategy and he is just doing what the coaching staff instructed I don't see him and Boeser as a good fit.  I know they scored but the bulk of those points have come on the man advantage.  I'd love to see if Gagne would benefit by playing with Boeser, Boeser needs more of a playmaker and Gagne needs something to get going.  The Sutter line I wouldn't touch but the rest could use some tweaks here and there.  I wouldn't panic, the Canucks have definitely outplayed the last two teams they just ran into stellar goaltending.

 

 

12 hours ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

I'd be open to splitting them up on the power play.

 

There've been some good signs that our man advantage is improving. But most of this has happened when the Sedins are on the bench. When they do play the power play, they tend to create a very static formation, and I think I've railed against this approach enough by now that I don't have to detail the importance of movement and shifting/rotation in PP systems.

 

Beyond the eye test, the numbers support the idea that the twins aren't getting it done on the man advantage. They are currently our 7th and 8th best forwards in PP GF/60. And it's not just a matter of luck as they are also 7th and 8th in PP CF/60, 7th and 9th in PP SCF/60, and (slightly better) 4th and 5th in PP HDSCF/60.

 

EDIT: "GF"=goals for, "CF"=Corsi for, "SCF"=scoring chances for, and "HDSCF"=high danger scoring chances for. Just in case the above looked like a bunch of gibberish to anyone.

 

They just aren't getting the results to justify continued central placement on a power play unit. They shouldn't be dictating the scheme anymore. They might very well be better suited as supporting playmakers, on two separate units, and surrounded by our more dynamic players.

 

5v5 is a different story. The twins continue to produce some of our best on-ice underlying metrics at even strength. And my eye test agrees with the numbers. I think they've looked good at evens and should continue to play together exclusively. The individual results will come. They're doing the right things and have actually been quite dominant (generally they're ranked 1&2) at 5v5 on Corsi, Fenwick, scoring chances, and high danger scoring chances.

 

 

I agree with @Hectic and @Tre Mac that the Sutter line should stay as is. That line has been excellent as a shutdown line.  I also agree that it would be worth trying Daniel with Horvat. Horvat is trying to do too much himself but, as the shooter playing with a playmaking winger like Daniel, things might work out. And Horvat has enough speed to make up for Daniel's difficulty in getting back quickly on the backcheck and in making quick breakouts. And putting Henrik with a shooters like Vanek might also make sense.

 

Sid raises an interesting point about the Sedins good 5-on-5 metrics. Part of that is getting relatively easy matchups and getting a lot of O-zone starts, so I am less convinced that it is indicative of playing really well. 

 

But I think the other issue is that the Sedins are not as good as they used to be in converting scoring chances, high danger chances, or shot attempts into goals. They are just a bit slower. They are getting more shots blocked and have more close misses and fewer shots that hit the corners. I could be wrong and maybe their conversion rate of chances to goals or shot attempts to goals will rise, but I think this is probably just another aspect of age-related decline. It also suggests to me that the team might do better if they are both set-up guys for better shooters.

[Ronaldoescobar]

No Sedin split.. Add LE when back and the magic commences!!

[SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME]

4 hours ago, JamesB said:

Sid raises an interesting point about the Sedins good 5-on-5 metrics. Part of that is getting relatively easy matchups and getting a lot of O-zone starts, so I am less convinced that it is indicative of playing really well. 

QualComp and zonestarts are a factor. But not enough to account for the twins' rates. Even when you use adjusted stats, the Sedins are putting up sparkling underlying numbers at 5v5. Far and away the best on the team:

 

http://www.naturalstattrick.com/playerteams.php?season=20172018&stype=2&sit=sva&score=all&stdoi=oi&rate=r&team=VAN&pos=S&loc=B&toi=0&gpfilt=none&fd=&td=&tgp=82&lines=single

 

I mean, we're talking around +10 or more Corsi/Fenwick/shots/scoring chances per 60 minutes than what the team is averaging. And they're also suppressing around the same amount in terms of events against.

 

Those would be pretty darn good underlying numbers even if they were getting 100% offensive zone faceoffs and matched up exclusively against fourth liners.

 

Sure they do things that irk me at times. Lazy backchecks, slow to the bench on changes, passive D in their own zone, passing up good shooting opportunities, holding onto the puck too long, not passing to other teammates, etc.

 

This list goes on and on.

 

But even with their difficiencies, the twins still provide a net positive team on-ice effect (and a fairly significant one) at even strength.

 

They're never again going to be first liners or the centrepieces of this team's offense. But if they can maintain anything close to the events numbers they've put-up so far, they should end up producing a lot more scoring than they have to-date this season, and might very well end up being one of our better lines in terms of relative GF%.

 

They're actually rocking PDOs in the 930's right now (lowest on the team). That's gotta go up. Maybe not to levels we saw in their prime. But I'd expect some considerable improvement in their 5v5 goals numbers if their underlyings remain at similar rates.

 

If nothing else, they've shown (at least thus far this season) that, with some admittedly favourable deployment, they can provide this team with a solid 9-10 5v5 minutes per game where the puck spends the majority of the time on the opposition side of centre.

 

At this point in their careers, that's good enough for me.

 

And it's reason enough to keep playing them together at even strength (not that you suggested otherwise). 

[EdgarM]

8 hours ago, JamesB said:

 

 

 

I agree with @Hectic and @Tre Mac that the Sutter line should stay as is. That line has been excellent as a shutdown line.  I also agree that it would be worth trying Daniel with Horvat. Horvat is trying to do too much himself but, as the shooter playing with a playmaking winger like Daniel, things might work out. And Horvat has enough speed to make up for Daniel's difficulty in getting back quickly on the backcheck and in making quick breakouts. And putting Henrik with a shooters like Vanek might also make sense.

 

Sid raises an interesting point about the Sedins good 5-on-5 metrics. Part of that is getting relatively easy matchups and getting a lot of O-zone starts, so I am less convinced that it is indicative of playing really well. 

 

But I think the other issue is that the Sedins are not as good as they used to be in converting scoring chances, high danger chances, or shot attempts into goals. They are just a bit slower. They are getting more shots blocked and have more close misses and fewer shots that hit the corners. I could be wrong and maybe their conversion rate of chances to goals or shot attempts to goals will rise, but I think this is probably just another aspect of age-related decline. It also suggests to me that the team might do better if they are both set-up guys for better shooters.

I have noticed this as well. Although they can still manage to get the puck to the net, the danger areas, the finish is not there anymore and that's what counts in the end. Their shots are no longer effective and they miss passes that they never missed before. The skill level has diminished. Biega can get the puck to the net too but then.........

[Pete M]

After 12 games, JV is +2 and Sedins are -4...interesting fact.

Maybe JV is keeping the Sedins from having a worst +/-.

 

Noticed the team doesn't produce goals when the Sedins ice time is more than 14 minutes per game.

 

Coach needs to keep their ice time to around 14 minutes and let the young guys press the pace in order for the team to get wins.

 

I'd keep them together but limit their ice time to 14 minutes per game...if they are not producing on the PP, then they should sit and watch.

[LowerMainLander18]

On 11/2/2017 at 3:40 AM, IBacon Strips said:

I'm open to it just to give Boeser and Horvat each their own lines to be the go to guy on. Hard to say if it'll be effective given their age and ability to adapt these days. 

Daniel-Horvat-Virtanen

Baer-Henrik-Boeser

I dont think Virtanen should be getting PP time at this point.

[Plsdontdoit]

SaD to see lots of people wants the Sedins to go 

[IBacon Strips]

1 hour ago, LowerMainLander18 said:

I dont think Virtanen should be getting PP time at this point.

Those aren't pp lines, just how the lines would look splitting the Sedins. 

PP should probably have

Vanek-Horvat-Baer

Sedins-Boeser-Gagner

With Horvat and Daniel near the net and Boeser/Vanek as shooters. 

[mll]

59 minutes ago, IBacon Strips said:

Those aren't pp lines, just how the lines would look splitting the Sedins. 

PP should probably have

Vanek-Horvat-Baer

Sedins-Boeser-Gagner

With Horvat and Daniel near the net and Boeser/Vanek as shooters. 

When the Wild signed Vanek - Pominville could not stop talking about how Vanek was so efficient as net front guy on the PP.  

[BowtieCanuck]

If the Sedins apart would work better than them together, I don't think Burke would have made such an effort to draft them together.

[VIC_CITY]

23 hours ago, SILLY GOOSE said:

+1

 

I get the criticism too because they are expected to produce.   Virtanen is looking more comfortable every game with them. 

 

This team is playing really well given the expectations of this team, and they look like they are about to break out.  The shot attempts and their ability to create turn overs bodes well. 

 

The thing with Vanek is that even though he may get the odd goal, I feel like Burmistrov and Gagner would be doing even better with a guy that doesnt turn the puck over so much.  Id like to see Vanek turn into an asset at the TDL too, but I think scouts will see that his puck possession isnt exactly strong, and his puck pursuit is pretty weak too.   I have a feeling that if Guance comes back and starts flying, Vanek will be sitting.   Burmi/Gagner line could be another scoring threat with a quick winger that drives the net. 
 

Tough to say. I like Gaunce, but our team defense even with Vanek in the lineup is already excellent. I have a hard time seeing us swapping out one of our top goal scorers for a guy that seems to be pretty much all defense (to date). Vanek definitely has his share of brain cramps, but we need guys that can score so I don't see him sitting out for any length of time.

[-Vintage Canuck-]

They should be split up on the powerplay. If it works out, then try the same lines 5-on-5. 

 

I would like to see:

 

Sedin - Horvat - Gagner

Boeser - Del Zotto

 

Baertschi - Henrik - Vanek

Hutton - Pouliot

[Heretic]

On 11/2/2017 at 1:45 AM, darkpoet said:

This has been talked about for 20 years.

No.

 

^5 this!

 

Seems like every few months someone creates a "split the Sedins" thread.  Please stop.

 

 

[Rabbit]

23 minutes ago, -Vintage Canuck- said:

They should be split up on the powerplay. If it works out, then try the same lines 5-on-5. 

 

I would like to see:

 

Sedin - Horvat - Gagner

Boeser - Del Zotto

 

Baertschi - Henrik - Vanek

Hutton - Pouliot

Agreed.  

Also, don't use them in 3 on 3.  They are too slow and easy to loss the puck, which creates dangerous to ur goalie.

[EdgarM]

1 hour ago, BowtieCanuck said:

If the Sedins apart would work better than them together, I don't think Burke would have made such an effort to draft them together.

NEWS FLASH! Their skills and abilities have diminished just a tad since then.

[JamesB]

1 hour ago, Heretic said:

^5 this!

 

Seems like every few months someone creates a "split the Sedins" thread.  Please stop.

 

 

2 hours ago, BowtieCanuck said:

If the Sedins apart would work better than them together, I don't think Burke would have made such an effort to draft them together.

 

 

37 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

NEWS FLASH! Their skills and abilities have diminished just a tad since then.

Thanks to EdgarM. The point of the OP was that THINGS HAVE CHANGED OVER TIME. Deployment of the Sedins in their prime was different than optimal deployment now. The other response to Bowtie is that it would have been a great strategy to draft the Sedins together even if they were not going to play on the same line. They were great prospects and, because they wanted to play on the same team, it was possible for Burke to leverage the situation to get both players.

 

As for Heretic's comment, as the OP says, splitting the Sedins has been discussed many times. But I think the situation has changed. Also, I was trying to add some value (possibly unsuccessfully) by doing some analysis of the nature of "chemistry" and of why the situation for the Sedins now is different from in the past.

 

 

[Alflives]

I thought the OP read, "sitting" the Twins.  I like the 5 on 5 with Jake, but they should NOT play in the 3 on 3 overtime.

[Hairy Kneel]

I just feel sorry for them having to go through this.