Stop the Sedin Hate

[canucksnihilist]

10 hours ago, CaptainLinden16 said:

That team had Loungo, Kesler scoring 40 goals, Erhoff, Edler in his prime, Hamhuis, Burrows scoring 25, Raymond and Samuelson contirbutiing, Bieksa, Torres and Corey Schnieder as a backup, should I go on?  The 2018 Canucks are 1/1000 as good as the 2011 Canucks.  The one Sedin's on pace for 50-60 points are hardly the main culprits.  You have two goalies that are at .905% in SV, no 40 goal Keler, no offense from defense, no defense from the defense.  I mean you are not logial and you don't mean well but kudos for making stuff up.

 

I have watched every shift since day one.  They have always been slow, passed too much, overstayed shifts, and occasionally got pinned in their own zone.  Those are the same arguments that have been made for a decade and half.  You haven't stumbled upon a new discovery that these things are effecting their play.  hahahaha  I wish I could pull up some threads on old Canucks Central which preceded this board.  Their passing, creativity and offensive genius has always outweighed the negatives.  They play up and down to their quality of opposition.

 

If Green actually put them out when the Canucks are playing against an empty net on the other end, which admittedly is rare these days; they would be on a 70-80 point pace.  They used to murder in those situations.  Green always rolls out Sutter and the turtle crew in the last 2 minutes with a lead.  They all so feasted on weaker teams and when the score line was in the Canucks favor.  All of these things require a better overall team.  Their numbers would be substantially better with a better team.

 

The main point that you keep dodging consistently as you have no answer is Daniel is 77th in the league in scoring and Henrik is 90th making them top line producers in today's NHL playing 15 minutes a night.  Please lets get rid off these guys as soon as possible because they are completely washed up. My brain hurts as to how someone could be so obtuse. Joe Thornton is also considered a defensively liability but still plays first line minutes because a good coach will negate the negatives by partnering that player with the right compliment.  Hansen is that for the Sedins at this point.  We can get him back for a bag of pucks.  They can play 3rd line minutes and 1PP.  Sign for 3M one year deals.  All of you can continue to complain.  All of us well intentioned people can enjoy the two greatest Canucks of all time for a couple of more years.

 

You obviously missed their magic when they were st the top of their games - if you think they are the same players now.

 

[alfstonker]

22 hours ago, Viper007 said:

So because Jake and Nikita were out of shape this was the Twins mentorship?? This is the stupidest comment I have ever heard.  The Sedins' can only show how you should do it.  Whether you do it or not is a personal responsibility.  Blaming the Sedins' for Kassian having problems?? Are you serious?  This is so wrong on so many levels.  

I wasn't blaming anyone if you were able to comprehend. I was saying they made no difference and were of no influence.

 

The point is valid though because it tends to prove that having generally sensible players on the team is enough - there is no requirement to be stand up "pillars of the community" characters away from the ice because it doesn't rub off. People go on about how the Sedins are so fit when they come to camp, well what influence did that have on Jake or Nikita? None it seemed.

 

We are NOT paying them to mentor players we are paying them to make a difference, we have plenty of players who can mentor and you don't have to be over 28 years of age either. Good habits start early - look at Bo, Brock and Gaunce, they show that improvement is what every player should be aiming for.

[alfstonker]

8 hours ago, The Lock said:

My point was singling out 2 players when it is a team sport is silly. Your second paragraph actually supports my argument as well since they are merely 2 players on the team.

 

But hey, if you don't want to address what I said then I guess we don't have much of a discussion then do we?

If they are just "two players" on the team why have we been paying them top dollar for years?

Yes it is a team game but every team needs to have players who lead by example and drive the team onto success.

 

Normally these players can be paid according to performance of each, normally they fit into a team style, normally they can be put on different lines to help the team, normally they can be traded as individuals, normally you would hope one if not both had some push back, normally both would not be expected to be slow - -  do you see where I am going with this.

 

We have made a great many allowances for them being twins, and also some sacrifices. We have designed our whole style over the years to favour the "Twins." It could be argued that by going out of our way to ensure we signed both and then going out of our way to accommodate their particular style of play, we have given them a life and a lifestyle, they could not have expected if they had been signed to different teams - and you wonder why I laugh at the continued voicing of opinions saying we "OWE THEM"

[alfstonker]

9 hours ago, Baggins said:

You're blaming the two guys that always show up in great shape, an example for everybody, for young guys showing up in poor shape? Seriously? You are so full of......

No I'm not, I'm saying their "mentorship" is overstated and overvalued when compared to say Bieksa, Hamhuis, Horvat, Hansen who we were "happy" to push out the door. Of course none of them were close personal friends of Trevor Linden.

[alfstonker]

5 hours ago, NaveJoseph said:

The Sedins have been playing really well lately, especially Daniel. I think we should let them come back and carry our second unit power play. 

No they have not. They have been playing well on the PP and looking like "past it old-timers" on 5 on 5.

However that said there is no proof that 2 replacements could not do what they are doing (playing reasonably well) on the PP AND PLAY WELL 5 v 5.

[Baggins]

52 minutes ago, alfstonker said:

No I'm not, I'm saying their "mentorship" is overstated and overvalued when compared to say Bieksa, Hamhuis, Horvat, Hansen who we were "happy" to push out the door. Of course none of them were close personal friends of Trevor Linden.

Are you privy to the locker room? How about practice? Ever hear the Horvat story about when he was in a scoring draught and Henrik went out on the ice with him before practice to have a skate with him and talk with him about draughts? His draught ended the next game. How about what Bieksa said about his last training camp here? About working his tail off in the off-season because he wanted to beat the Sedins at something, anything just once, at fitness testing. He won the chin up testing. That's just a couple of the stories that come out. Mentoring and setting the bar. How much goes on that we never hear about? I'd wager the coach, GM, and president are far more in the know than you ever will be about what the Sedins bring.

 

And yes you did blame them for Virtanen and Tryamkin showing up out of shape and also Kassians "problems"......

 

21 hours ago, alfstonker said:

It also remains a fact that both Jake and Nikita turned up at the beginning of the season out of condition under the Twins mentorship. Kassian also had problems under the Twins mentorship.

How could this statement be construed any other way?

[alfstonker]

3 hours ago, Baggins said:

Are you privy to the locker room? How about practice? Ever hear the Horvat story about when he was in a scoring draught and Henrik went out on the ice with him before practice to have a skate with him and talk with him about draughts? His draught ended the next game. How about what Bieksa said about his last training camp here? About working his tail off in the off-season because he wanted to beat the Sedins at something, anything just once, at fitness testing. He won the chin up testing. That's just a couple of the stories that come out. Mentoring and setting the bar. How much goes on that we never hear about? I'd wager the coach, GM, and president are far more in the know than you ever will be about what the Sedins bring.

 

And yes you did blame them for Virtanen and Tryamkin showing up out of shape and also Kassians "problems"......

 

How could this statement be construed any other way?

It's pretty plain you have misconstrued it, there is no point reposting my last post. 

I am not saying they don't mentor and you are right we are not privy to what goes on behind the scenes but that should not be taken as a lot or a little. We also don't know who does most of the mentoring do we?

 

By the way the word you are searching for is "drought" 

[SingleThorn]

1 hour ago, alfstonker said:

It's pretty plain you have misconstrued it, there is no point reposting my last post. 

I am not saying they don't mentor and you are right we are not privy to what goes on behind the scenes but that should not be taken as a lot or a little. We also don't know who does most of the mentoring do we.

 

By the way the word you are searching for is "drought" 

Could write a book on CDC language. Include a chapter on misspelled names too. Probably be the dullest book ever written. The title would 'Your a Looser, the CDC Storey" !

[CaptainLinden16]

6 hours ago, canucksnihilist said:

You obviously missed their magic when they were st the top of their games - if you think they are the same players now.

 

Its your crowed that missed it in the beginning, understood it in the middle because the team was great, and you are missing the boat again now.  You don't understand them as players.  You don't get that type of hockey, and that's fine.  Jagr slow as molasses played into his 40s, Joe Thornton is also slow and a defensively liability, heck Tavares is well below average in speed.  When the NHL was all about size (Kings, Bruins), they were too soft.  Now that the NHL is all about speed (TB, LVG, PIT, NSH), they are too slow.  They are not physical players yet they have a better durability record than anyone who has ever played for the team.  They have better offensive record than anyone who has ever played for the team.  They are just underappreciated because everyone loves goals and hits a lot more than they love assists.  They always will be underappreciated just like having a good goalie. A team needs all parts to be successful.

 

What team in the NHL would EVER consider getting rid of two top 90 scorers playing 15 minutes per night?  I mean seriously?  Forget that they are legends and icons in the community and that they bring a level of professionalism to practices and games that should be emulated.  On production alone they are an automatic to return. 

[coastal.view]

12 hours ago, DIBdaQUIB said:

opinion, not fact.

ok mr obvious

since when does anything i post on here

raise itself to the level of fact

 

this is all just opinion

and some of us differ in our opinons

that is why the site stays active

[189lb enforcers?]

51 minutes ago, coastal.view said:

ok mr obvious

since when does anything i post on here

raise itself to the level of fact

 

this is all just opinion

and some of us differ in our opinons

that is why the site stays active

It’s when discord is referred to as hate that I take issue and this whole thread can be viewed as silencing decent, in a sense.

 

I agree with you about what makes the site work. I used to refer to its cu.ture as a mini North Korea, where the minus button was used to force an indentured servitude of its posters.

 

Labelling unpopular opinion as hate is kind of a new thing we see in all of politics and it’s found it’s way into how we respond to each other here.

 

So not a fan of the word hate when talking about a sports team, when fellow fans use it especially. Like you say, it’s just opinions placed in an ether. No moral high ground should be felt while discussing the Canucks, but look at the few threads of the day going on and wonder if Orwell would be impressed or scared about the likeness of today to his, 1984. Even our hockey has become political. Sad, really. 

[The Lock]

11 hours ago, alfstonker said:

If they are just "two players" on the team why have we been paying them top dollar for years?

Yes it is a team game but every team needs to have players who lead by example and drive the team onto success.

 

Normally these players can be paid according to performance of each, normally they fit into a team style, normally they can be put on different lines to help the team, normally they can be traded as individuals, normally you would hope one if not both had some push back, normally both would not be expected to be slow - -  do you see where I am going with this.

 

We have made a great many allowances for them being twins, and also some sacrifices. We have designed our whole style over the years to favour the "Twins." It could be argued that by going out of our way to ensure we signed both and then going out of our way to accommodate their particular style of play, we have given them a life and a lifestyle, they could not have expected if they had been signed to different teams - and you wonder why I laugh at the continued voicing of opinions saying we "OWE THEM"

Rather than thinking "top dollar", think about the percentage of what they are being paid on the team: it is less than 20% of the wages. This would even have been roughly the case a few years ago. Were they paid more than our other players in terms of individually? Yes, but that doesn't mean they have to carry the team, especially when you consider there's 80% in wages more that should also carry the team. Thus, it's a team sport.

 

As far as leading by example goes, the countless interviews with people like Horvat saying they've looked up to the Sedins and their work ethic demonstrates that they do lead by example. As I've also mentioned before, they were the main targets of the opposition which left the other lines open to score during the run of 2011. This happens to other teams too. There are times when we don't see Crosby, or Kane, or (insert player here). This is not isolated to the Sedins. This is how hockey works and if you ignore that, then you're ignoring how the playoffs and strategy works on hockey in general. Players get targeted by the opposition so that they can't produce.

 

If you expect pushback from every player on the team, if that pushback is sacrificing skill, then I'm going to completely disagree with you. We need some players for pure skill and other players for pushback. If you look at almost every successful team, you see a lot of this. You have the top skilled players and then you have the players that stand up for the skilled guys. It's happened in hockey for decades and it's one thing that doesn't look to really be changing any time soon. So while I see where you're going with things, I don't think it's right. It's an unrealistic expectation in my opinion.

 

I dont' see where we "designed out team around the Sedins". I'd actually argue that we built our lines based on diversity. The Kesler line was a very different line from the Sedins, as was our 3rd and 4th lines throughout the years. We had somewhat of a revolving door in terms of finding that "3rd man" for the Sedins to play with. I ask you then: how exactly did we design our style after the Sedins when we had more than just the Sedins as a "threat" to other teams?

 

Finally, I don't think we necessarily "owe them", but I also think it's silly to say we should have had different players instead. I'm curious: do you really not see them as leaders even though countless other players have said they are among the hardest working on the team? And how so? I want specifics.

[DIBdaQUIB]

3 hours ago, coastal.view said:

ok mr obvious

since when does anything i post on here

raise itself to the level of fact

 

this is all just opinion

and some of us differ in our opinons

that is why the site stays active

I can certainly agree with that.  We differ in that, while I may disagree with your opinion, I choose not to dismiss it as drama or resort to labeling you. 

As for the topic...There has already been public exposure as jb asked the sedins to state their intent prior to the tdl and they declined to do so. It will be interesting to see how (and where) this plays out.

[coastal.view]

43 minutes ago, DIBdaQUIB said:

I can certainly agree with that.  We differ in that, while I may disagree with your opinion, I choose not to dismiss it as drama or resort to labeling you. 

As for the topic...There has already been public exposure as jb asked the sedins to state their intent prior to the tdl and they declined to do so. It will be interesting to see how (and where) this plays out.

we'll get some sort of joint presentation from both the sedins and management

letting us all know how they have resolved this issue

at least that is how it has mostly been done before

 

[DIBdaQUIB]

5 minutes ago, coastal.view said:

we'll get some sort of joint presentation from both the sedins and management

letting us all know how they have resolved this issue

at least that is how it has mostly been done before

 

Could be.  Time will tell.

[Riviera82]

I for one dont "hate" the Sedins, I've just seen enough of them. 

 

My main issue with the Sedins is that there are two of them. Do we really need two old guys for another year or more for the purpose of "mentoring" or whatever? Of course that's where their high maintenance comes in. They're a virtually inseparable duo who need to be accommodated so carefully to make sure they dont become totally ineffective. We all know about the powerplay, o-zone starts, no pk, and so on, and that's what I'm talking about. Dank's having a good run lately but at this point in the Sedins career I think they're more of a hindrance than a help due to their coddling; and that's only going to get worse and doubly magnified the longer they hang on.

 

If there were only 1 Sedin I'd say great, give him another year or two and mentor up a storm. The individual Sedin could be placed anywhere in the lineup or even benched if need be. That of course isn't possible though as there will never be just 1.

[cdgraham]

On 01/03/2018 at 9:14 AM, coastal.view said:

why no first unit power play?

who is better at it then them?

you looking to gift spots?

why not let members of the 2nd unit show they are better first

and earn the first unit power play time

 

what is with this mindset that we remove quality players

from key positions and lines

before the young talent has earned those roles?
i mean really who else in life really does this

in a situation where business ethics guide decision making ?

 

i am pleased bo brock and whoever earned the 1st line role on this team

and took it away from the sedins

let's have others do the same for other roles

the 2nd line role and any power play role

thank you

[Nave]

17 hours ago, alfstonker said:

No they have not. They have been playing well on the PP and looking like "past it old-timers" on 5 on 5.

However that said there is no proof that 2 replacements could not do what they are doing (playing reasonably well) on the PP AND PLAY WELL 5 v 5.

Special teams is a big part of the game. I think they still hold value as mentors and power play specialists. However, I expect their ice time to continue to drop.

[ChuckNORRIS4Cup]

My take on the matter before Brock became a known superstar to the NHL the Sedins were still considered the Canucks top line which forced them to face up against the opposing teams top D pairing. In theory they shouldn't of been our top line still at their age but with lack of prospects from Gillis they were, and that really hurts their play at their age they can't be as good as they used to be.

 

I think what we're starting to see now is the opposing teams top D pairing up against Brock and Horvat now and the Sedins aren't dealing with that anymore. Which is a good thing because it's more to their level where they can produce again a bit, and could benefit them if they do come back for another year, definitely something to keep an eye on for the rest of this season. 

[alfstonker]

5 hours ago, NaveJoseph said:

Special teams is a big part of the game. I think they still hold value as mentors and power play specialists. However, I expect their ice time to continue to drop.

Once more you excuse them by claiming they have some kind of PP prowess. Do we have any proof they are better than any other two players at their salary - our real breakthrough in the PP has come from the inclusion of Boeser and the progress of players like Stecher and Horvat. There is evidence that Pettersson and Lind/Dahlen might equally fulfil these roles.

 

We need to stop pretending they are still bringing things to this team that can't be matched by others, whether they are prospects, signings or trades.