Ghostsof1915 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 18 minutes ago, Canuckster86 said: We are trending up for 2 reasons this year, I would say 1 reason but that wouldnt be fair. Reason 1- Pistol Pete lighting it up the first half Reason 2- Markstrom stealing points for most of the season playing unreal infront of an AHL D core To be fair, this is despite losing 100 points from the Sedin's retiring. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86Viking Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 4 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said: To be fair, this is despite losing 100 points from the Sedin's retiring. 100 pts from Sedins - 60pts plus from Petey =<40pts to make up Roussel 31pts So basically Sedins point production was replaced by Petey and Roussel this year 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsof1915 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 Just now, Canuckster86 said: 100 pts from Sedins - 60pts plus from Petey =<40pts to make up Roussel 31pts So basically Sedins point production was replaced by Petey and Roussel this year Horvat is going to have a career year. Brock is on a points streak and is only 6 points shy of his rookie season. Hutton was having a revival, much like his rookie season. Stetcher is also doing well. The future looks bright. And that's before Hughes, Teves, Woo, etc. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Toni Zamboni Posted March 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted March 16, 2019 to lazy didnt read. 2 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucksnihilist Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 (edited) Correction : ownership has mandated that JB part with assets. Ownership needs to be replaced. why do you think a person with such a good drafting record and been involved in the draft for so long has made all these moves? Debate his record all you want but he obviously has had a lot more success at the draft than any other Canuck GM Ownership. Win now. Developing land around GM place. Need to hold interest. Relevancy in the market. Winning a cup is not the primary goal of this ownership group - it is obvious. A gut like TO did would have been in that direction. That said - winning a cup is obviously one of the goals of ownership (raise franchise value, profile, etc) but it isn't the primary goal. You don’t need to win a cup to have a financially successful franchise. Edited March 16, 2019 by canucksnihilist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick_theRyper Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 Theres a point when Jimbo will be evaluated. There will also be a time when coach Green will be evaluated. When that time does come for each of the two of them... It won't be by the OP. 2 or 3 more year for Benning before we start the noose swinging chants. This guy has turned the team around well. One could argue it could have quick (--- enter complaint here---) but he is on an upwards trend. To replace now as OP suggest would almost undoubtedly see some club favs leaving town for high picks that may or may not work out better and the rebuilding timetable grow drastically.. Then there would just be more time for fuel to add to this fire of impatience. And more "OP's" suggesting failing in short sight of a larger plan than most can comprehend. Green will show again next year what he can do with a better team. Hughes addition. Offseason Moves. And upcomings in Gaudette and if he does come back the year after Tryamkin. But Green will play out his term. And if he pulls through and grows with the team then he will stick as well. I say 2 more years before we burn the sh!t down speaches should even start to rumble.. Have a beer, smoke one. And chill out OP. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuxfanabroad Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 IMHO, it seems more honourable that we've gone into every season giving 100%. We joke about "tanking", but their fall-backs have been strongly linked to injuries. I've questioned whether this fanbase(even CDC crowd) has the patience to build this monster(of a team) properly? That said, it's late-season(another one injury-filled), & the wheels have fallen off. So it doesn't surprise me if some HFHater-types wriggle up(from the woodwork) & start threads that resemble this very one here. Some 'mistakes' have their reasons. For example, do any worthwhile FA vets WANT to come to a team that's recently injury-decimated & rebuilding? Does anyone THINK ya might have to overpay a tad? Of course there is a % of society that will argue just for the sake of it, as well as another %(often overlapping!) who will emphasize/criticize situations, just to enjoy others' duress! CDC late in an injury-plagued season..best taken in small doses(perhaps once a wk?)..at least the draft(& lead-up) should be mostly enjoyable.. projecting forwards, analysis & exchange... 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Alflives Posted March 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted March 16, 2019 2 hours ago, Generational.EP40 said: 1.) not saying to get ride of him entirely, just at the managerial level as he undoubtably has restocked the prospect cupboard for us which can’t be denied 2.) should retain some sort of position, preferably something like president or VP of hockey operations to overlook things and continue sharing his expertise when it comes to drafting/prospects 3.) so why should he step down / be replaced as GM? Let’s look: That’s shocking. We have almost nothing of significance to show for over JB 5 year tenure. ...it’s no surprise we hired a newbie GM at the time. This critical transition phase the organization is in, we can’t be allowing this much trial&error with the scarce assets we have to work with in the first place. On top of the asset inefficiency, his inexperience as manager has been evident with the signings as well. Overpaying & giving extended years to questionable players, just unnecessary. All it’s done is become dead weight which can’t be moved and will anchor the roster in the years ahead. That manager inexperience? To continue, he hasn’t been able to commit to a plan or vision since day1. A rebuild was clear as day but the R word was never uttered until Linden became president. Prior to that he dodged it like the plague and would never admit it. Thought he could fast track by trading picks in the beginning when those picks could’ve been paying dividends for us right now. Too much flip flopping between ideologies. Remember “meat & potatoes”? That died shortly but then he couldn’t fully let it go either as evident by drafting Virtanen coming off a major surgery...he just couldn’t help himself. Even now, we struck gold with EP. Rebuild was endorsed but now that we got lucky and EP has fast forwarded that timeline, he thinks we can fight for a playoff(WC) spot. The man can’t help himself and begins jumping the gun too easily, can’t stay focused on the mission. Just far too much indecisiveness and it’s fair to say we’ve seen enough. Let’s get a proven GM who can be relied on to stay the course, not get ahead of himself, and let the nature of the rebuild take place organically while JB overlooks the draft aspect. I think that would be best for all parties. Stack up on maximum assets, get a cap structure going, get rid of bad contracts in this vital transition phase when we will shortly but surely be on the rise. Hypothetically, targeting an Yzerman or someone along those lines as GM+President would be ideal. Thoughts? My thoughts are you need alcohol, and lots of it. JB was first hired to retool around the old Sedin led core. At the 2017 TDL Aquilini agreed to a philosophical change, and supported a rebuild. JB has been rebuilding for only 2 years. Considering that time frame, I think he’s doing really well building up our young asset depth, and top end guys. 1 1 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReggieBush Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 No he doesn't need to be replaced. The expectations that the owner set out for him have changed. It is a mandate from ownership that "wasted" those assets. They are not doing that anymore 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuxfanabroad Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 52 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Thoughts? You posted a guys take on things who presented a list of veritable garbage and claim they are assets. In the NHL one mans trash is NOT another mans treasure and arguably the ONLY question marks are McCann, Forsling and I guess Sutter at this stage. Evertying else on that list is a joke. He's actually down 1 pick from all his trades in his tenure added up. He's shed over $22 million on the cap, 8+ years on average off the roster and turned one of if not the worst prospect pool in the entire league in to one of the top 5 in the league lEtS fIrE BeNnInG aSsEt ManAgeMeNT Come on man, if you're going to present such a drastic statement 1. Present YOUR argument not some clown off of twitter (it's you isn't it, that's your twitter handle right?) 2. Don't prsent someone else's twitter argument who ends their whole argument with @botchford as though he's looking for approval 3. Don't say fire benning but add not really, let's fire him but not fire him Honestly....it took YEARS to shed the dead weight from this team it took YEARS to start building a respectable prospect pool and it's gonna take years more for the drafting and development program to atually start paying serious dividends. Trade all the vets, earn all the picks only works if 29 other GMs want to play ball, if players want to waive NTCs. Sorry bud, poor argument you shared and we're not bringing in Yzerman or anyone of the sort Had to quote this for emphasis. Sums up the counter, concisely & comprehensively. Patience is required w/rebuilds. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceman64 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 2 hours ago, HorvatToBaertschi said: Went from the worst prospect pool in the league to consistent top 5... with prospects graduating consistently as well... like what kind of thread is this ? It's a troll thread... Op couldn't even take into account what a disaster this team was when Benning arrived.. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post JamesB Posted March 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted March 16, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Baer. said: JB Drafting: absolute genius (thanks Judd Bracket) JB trading: yikes JB on July 1st: dear god, don't let him near the phone! 2 hours ago, Generational.EP40 said: Appreciated. Yep not saying just drafting, but more so the whole package. Wavering in team vision / always jumping the gun, contracts, etc. Would be nice to get a stable presence for a change. 1 hour ago, Canuckster86 said: Gillis was here for what 6 years? most of which when the team was good. Jim Benning has been here now for what 4 or 5 years now? He has had top picks in all but 1 year, 2 of his top picks are not making a big impact or 0 impact as of right now in the NHL. GM, coach or player....they all get judged on their performance, just comes as part of the job. JB can stay on as President and have some imput with scouting/drafting, but I do believe we need to bring someone else in the be the GM. This team needs radical changes to the D and we need to find some scoring wingers and some players who play with grit and will stand up for his teammates. JB has shown that he won't make a big impactful trade since his arrival. We won't get a good young D or big forward with grit or legit top 6 scoring WITHOUT giving up something decent. At best JB should maybe have 1 more year to be the GM, my concercn lies on july 1 and what kind of bad signings he is going to make this go around.... No GM makes all the right moves, but to dismiss him passing on highly impactful players like Tkachuk or Ehlers is incorrect to do as well. He has done nothing to address our weak and pathetic D core. He gave up a young skilled F for a gritty D then ended up moving him for a reclamation project who is on his 3rd team this year. ... Not sure it is a good idea to comment here as most people on CDC have their minds made up about JB. And most of the people left on CDC are Benning loyalists. But, I can't resist making a few comments. 1. Every GM who has been around for a while and has made a lot of moves will have some individual moves that look good and some that look bad. Gillis gets criticized a lot but if you focus on trading for Ehrhoff, signing Hamhuis as a UFA, and drafting Horvat, he looks great. In any case, my point is that looking at one or two or even three special cases, good or bad, does not tell us much. 2. As Canuckster86 says, ultimately GMs get judged on performance. And performance is ultimately judged on wins and losses. I went to NHL.com and downloaded the cumulative performance for the past 4 years: 2015-16 through 2018-19 and ranked the teams by winning percentage. Here is the result. Yes, Vancouver is dead last. The other teams, besides Vancouver, who were very good in the Canuck peak years of 2008-09 through 2012-13 were, in order, Chicago, San Jose, Pittsburgh, Washington, Detroit and Boston. Those other teams have done much better than Vancouver in the past 4 years and some are way ahead of Vancouver now in terms of outlook. In fact, the striking thing about that list is not that good teams eventually decline. It is that the teams with really bad records are generally teams with bad management and/or ownership. 3. Also, teams like Arizona, Edmonton, Colorado, and Ottawa have been bad a for a long time. There is no inevitable rebuilding cycle. Every team has some periods that are better than others but some teams are generally bad for a long time and some are generally good. And that relates largely to the quality of management. It is not a matter of "patience". A poor management team is likely to yield poor results on a consistent basis. Their high points will be mediocrity and their low points will be bottom-feeding. 4. We can try to subdivide the key management tasks: drafting, trades, UFA signings, re-signing players, prospect development, organization (coaches, minor league affiliate), and overall strategy, There is no way an objective observer could say the Canucks have been good in any area except drafting. I know that some people will say that the Benning has been good on trades. But which trade acquisition on the Canucks is actually moving the dial? I think the answer to that is no-one. Yes, the Canucks have picked some players who were not good enough to play for other teams but have helped or at least have played for the Canucks (Leivo, Granlund, Pouliot). But that just tells you how weak the talent level is on the Canucks. The UFA record is obviously a problem. And prospect development in Utica has been a problem. 5. That leaves the draft. In the Benning era the results have been good, but far from spectacular. EP and Boeser were great picks but I think Virtanen and Juolevi were misses and obviously better guys were available. (Failure to recognize that Virtanen and Juolevi have been dramatically outperformed by, for example, Ehlers and Tkachuk is just flat-out denial.) But no GM is 100% and overall, the hits exceed the misses at the draft. However, my question is "who deserves credit". Initially when JB was hired he intended to do a lot of hands on scouting work, and initially he was heavily involved. And we know that what Benning saw from Juolevi at the World Juniors played an important role in that choice. But from what I have seen, read, and heard, it seems to me that Judd Brackett has taken over the primary role at the draft. And, frankly, a GM has too many other things to do to also run scouting. The GM still signs off on all the picks, of course. But I was really surprised by the video of last year's draft. Basically, Brackett was calling all the shots. 6. In the last 5 years the Canucks have done one thing well and a bunch of things poorly. Maybe the guy with primary responsibility for the one thing that went well should be promoted. That would be Judd Brackett. I would at least promote him to AGM and, frankly, I would make him GM. 7. When I have heard and read interviews with Brackett I have been very impressed, compared with Benning when I have often been disappointed. Edited March 16, 2019 by JamesB 1 1 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generational.EP40 Posted March 16, 2019 Author Share Posted March 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Canuckster86 said: Gillis was here for what 6 years? most of which when the team was good. Jim Benning has been here now for what 4 or 5 years now? He has had top picks in all but 1 year, 2 of his top picks are not making a big impact or 0 impact as of right now in the NHL. GM, coach or player....they all get judged on their performance, just comes as part of the job. JB can stay on as President and have some imput with scouting/drafting, but I do believe we need to bring someone else in the be the GM. This team needs radical changes to the D and we need to find some scoring wingers and some players who play with grit and will stand up for his teammates. JB has shown that he won't make a big impactful trade since his arrival. We won't get a good young D or big forward with grit or legit top 6 scoring WITHOUT giving up something decent. At best JB should maybe have 1 more year to be the GM, my concercn lies on july 1 and what kind of bad signings he is going to make this go around.... No GM makes all the right moves, but to dismiss him passing on highly impactful players like Tkachuk or Ehlers is incorrect to do as well. He has done nothing to address our weak and pathetic D core. He gave up a young skilled F for a gritty D then ended up moving him for a reclamation project who is on his 3rd team this year. Doubt JB gets canned this year, to have big trust in him though, I can't do that sorry. He has NOT got back decent picks or prospects by moving players out or asking guys for a trade list. I get they may have had NTC but if you can move a heart and soul guy like JUICE, why the heck can't you try to move other players who don't stand up for the young skilled guys you have. If your a GM JB promoter, you probably should avoid this thread, or go join the pro JB ones...time for a news flash, Canucks still have a ton of glaring holes, while drafting high for a while now and not being able to move out multiple assets who could have brought better picks or prospects back into our organization Bingo. This is what I’m getting at. Not trying to diminish JB, like I said his ability to restock our prospect pool is spectacular but that’s also where it ends for the most part. He doesn’t have any other advantageous GMing traits besides that really and is what this thread is about. So wouldn’t it be better to let him keep running the draft/developmental side of things while someone more suited for the GM role just does that? Seems very logical to me and it’s so the organization gets the best of both worlds...why limit ourselves to just one? Just look at when he publicly said he offered to trade for PK Subban and got fined by the league because it’s against the rules to mention names. He just doesn’t quite know/have the GMing lingo. Baffling to me as how people are misinterpreting this and wouldn’t want such a thing which would be best for everyone. Unfortunate that people are choosing to selectively read one thing and not the other. You’re just as much of a fan if you’re just open and honest about things lol. 1 hour ago, Baer. said: JB Drafting: absolute genius (thanks Judd Bracket) JB trading: yikes JB on July 1st: dear god, don't let him near the phone! ^in a nutshell. A 4th thing could be ideology/vision which is unstable to say the least. He/the team keeps flip flopping. Originally wanted to fast track and remain competitive for a few years, wanted to mimic Bruins “meat and potatoes, then realized it’s not the modern game and went to “speed and skill”, then contradicted that by forcefully drafting an injured Virtanen (meat&potatoes) coming off a major red flag concerning procedure, then Linden joined admitted it was a rebuild publicly for the first time in the Benning era to which JB began using, then hit the jackpot with Pettersson this yr and jumped the gun publicly saying he wants to push for a playoff spot lol /all falling under lack of vision and being able to carry through with it. Look at the Leafs, they had their eyes on the prize when rebuilding and didn’t cheat or take any shortcuts and look at where it’s got them. They’re in a great place because of it. So yea, what I said in this thread summed up: > JB pro: drafting > JB cons: everything else about GMing (trades, signings, vision, commitment) > get someone who is better than Jimbo at the cons > keep Jimbo for the pro(prospects), just in a different/special role AKA I’m not saying cut him loose entirely not rocket science 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 @JamesB Solid post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generational.EP40 Posted March 16, 2019 Author Share Posted March 16, 2019 1 hour ago, SabreFan1 said: I hope the Canucks keep JB 2 or 3 more years until the cupboards are so stocked that the ECHL team has some AHL level talent on it. Then give him a promotion to president of hockey operations with a focus on the scouting staff and then hire a horse trader GM that has a proven track record of excellent trading so the Canucks can take another shot at the Stanley Cup. That way whatever the new GM trades away, JB can just keep stocking the cupboards. If the right GM is hired, that could be a lethal 1-2 punch. Essentially this, other than that I don’t want risk of JB handicapping the team in the future with anymore signings and such so instead of 2/3 more years, make the change now. Keep him for the same reasons as you said, just get a better suited GM in the other aspects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SabreFan1 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 1 minute ago, Generational.EP40 said: Essentially this, other than that I don’t want risk of JB handicapping the team in the future with anymore signings and such so instead of 2/3 more years, make the change now. Keep him for the same reasons as you said, just get a better suited GM in the other aspects. Like @Canuckster86 said, the AHL team needs more depth. That's JB's strength. He would need 2 or 3 more years to set that up I think. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6string Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 28 posts, we've seen enough...... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khay Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 Almost everyone on the assets "OUT" list is either a fringe NHLers, never made the NH, or out of the league now. Some were acquired via UFA, like MDZ, so it was a free asset. Some were old guys that were near retirement, i.e., Burrows and Bieksa. The only asset that you can say that he squandered is Kesler. Initially, he got a decent deal, late 1st + Bonino (he was a 2C on a playoff team) + Sbisa (#6D). Then, all of a sudden there's only Pearson and Sutter left from it. And Sutter's value is slowly but surely going towards 0 and who knows exactly what we have in Pearson. If Pearson becomes a top 6 on this team and Sutter is able to stay healthy, allowing us to trade him for a decent prospect then, this could turn around. So no, he doesn't suck that bad. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generational.EP40 Posted March 16, 2019 Author Share Posted March 16, 2019 3 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said: Like @Canuckster86 said, the AHL team needs more depth. That's JB's strength. He would need 2 or 3 more years to set that up I think. Yea I mean he can still give input just as Shannahan did for Toronto. Doesn’t mean because he doesn’t have managerial status he won’t have a say. Honestly made this topic for healthy discussion so people can come to realization of things. Appalled by how defensive and attached people were at the beginning of thread that they couldn’t even realize stuff which nearly the rest of league would agree on lol. And it’s not like I’m some random, I am a STH as well. Does it mean I can’t make constructive criticism? Hell no. People that think you have to nod your head are ones that enable bad trends to continue in organizations by not holding them accountable. I’m just stating a relatively fair resolution I’d be in favour of the team making for these (obvious) reasons. There’s literally no harm in doing this, at least not that I can think of atm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silky mitts Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 Oj over Mt stings daily .. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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