[Rumour] Tyler Toffoli to hit free agency

[Devron]

8 minutes ago, Provost said:

Except basically everyone knew he overpaid, especially in term on the bottom six UFAs he signed and that was at the time of the signings and nothing to do with the pandemic.  
 

They were always bad contracts, and he couldn’t get rid of them before the pandemic either.

Meh. They really aren’t too far off. Loui is the only real big mistake. If we didn’t sign him the view on JB signings would be drastically different and we wouldn’t be in this predicament. The other contracts we basically had to outbid other teams cause we sucked but they are probably only one million too high max. I honestly think Bear would still be playing if not for the concussion and would be a reasonable contract for a 40 point guy. Then we have the Loui penalty to cap everything off. It’s really all just compounded from the LE signing. I’m disappointed in that guy more then anything. He didn’t even scratch the surface of meeting the slightest expectation. Morally he doesn’t deserve the money or to play on this team anymore. And if he somehow shows up in the locker room next season I don’t feel sorry for him for the looks he gets from his teammates 

[thundernuts]

23 minutes ago, ba;;isticsports said:

?

You believe that is why we had to be up against the cap?

Why were we  at the top of the cap, while being a bottom feeder in the first place?

 

Yeah, that was a little tongue in cheek, but...

 

I belive that the rule that they put in place to punish teams with contracts (like Luongo’s) caused all sorts of issues for this team.

 

When Luongo wanted a trade, his contract was so unappealing because of this penalty, that few teams were interested.  In retrospect, Luongo got them Markstrom, and Schneider got them Horvat, but it took years for those players to become what they are.
 

When they revised the rule to let other teams off the hook, but not the Canucks, it was another kick in the nuts.

 

Overall, the team is in up against the cap because the ownership has been willing to spend the money.  Obviously, not all of the money has returned value, but the Canucks are at a disadvantage because they signed Luongo to a LEGAL contract under the existing CBA (at the time of the signing), and retroactively punished for taking advantage of a loophole that the league didn’t have the foresight to close.

 

Edited October 11, 2020 by thundernuts

[khay]

36 minutes ago, EmilyM said:

I feel like when Benning made the Toffoli rental deal, we became a "going for it" team. That's not a trade a team makes when looking 4 years down the line. So the mixed messaging is annoying a lot of fans. It seems like management is unsure of what this team is.

It sure does seem like the management is confused.

 

But I guess a lot has changed from when we acquired Toffoli to now. When we acquired Toffoli, it was pre-COVID and the cap was going up to 85mil. That alone would have been enough for us to keep Toffoli and Tanev.

 

Now, the NHL has lost a lot of money in 2020 and will lose a lot of money assuming COVID continues into 2021. 

 

My wild guess is that the owners know we are going to lose money next season so they are more careful on signing off on big money contracts. That's why we lost Marky and Tanev and probably even Toffoli. I think JB may have been able to convince the fanboy in FA on acquiring OEL (if FA is as big a fan as we know him to be, he knows OEL would help this team to WCF at the minimum). But I think he's having trouble convincing FA on other deals.

 

The team made the playoffs this season and have demonstrated their abilities to win in the playoffs unlike TML. The sad part is that the team we had was probably one big piece like AP or OEL away from WCF and maybe the SCF (even without Marky). But now, we've taken a huge hit on defence and possibly up front with Toffoli not returning. It's going to be a dog fight for the playoffs next season.

 

 

[khay]

24 minutes ago, freshhprince95 said:

 

Honestly what’s really screwing us is the term he’s given. I don’t mind having Roussel and Beagle at 3M to bridge that gap for our youth to develop but it was planned so poorly in terms of how it aligned with Hughes and Peteys extension year. Had it been a year or two less we wouldn’t be in such a hole. However, to be fair no one expected these two to be 8M+ players coming out of their ELCs so that’s one thing. 

We have 30+ mil coming off next season. Those contracts are not poorly planned and even if they are 1 year longer, it's only 6 mil, which would have been used to sign 2 veteran depth players, likely costing around 4 mil or possibly more. 

 

I don't think we make the playoffs and win two rounds without these guys eating up hard minutes, especially Beagle. 

 

OTOH, Roussel was a bit of a disappointment in the playoffs.

 

[Googlie]

Flames pissing in our pond again?   This, from Flames Army ........

 

Up front, things are no less interesting. The Flames have every main piece of their forward group except for Andrew Mangiapane locked in for next season, but they still have roster and cap flexibility to make a move. If they don’t land Taylor Hall, who has been endlessly connected to his hometown Flames in rumours for the last year, it’s feasible they might show serious interest in Tyler Toffoli. A right-shot goal-scoring winger, Toffoli spent two years playing alongside Sean Monahan in junior on the Ottawa 67s. He’s a solid play-driver with a Stanley Cup ring. The Flames would obviously hope for more Jiri Hudler and less James Neal should they sign a guy like Toffoli.

[freshhprince95]

1 hour ago, khay said:

We have 30+ mil coming off next season. Those contracts are not poorly planned and even if they are 1 year longer, it's only 6 mil, which would have been used to sign 2 veteran depth players, likely costing around 4 mil or possibly more. 

 

I don't think we make the playoffs and win two rounds without these guys eating up hard minutes, especially Beagle. 

 

OTOH, Roussel was a bit of a disappointment in the playoffs.

 

I used the Roussel and Beagle contracts as the examples but the list includes Eriksson, Roussel, Beagle and Ferland. If you actually run the numbers, it’s a lot tighter than you think for next season. The season where we finally have “space” is the 22/23 season

 

21/22: This is how it looks “Assuming” you get Petey/Hughes/Demko at a combined 19M AND Pod/Hog/Rathbone can step in. Again had Roussel and Beagle or even Eriksson a year shorter we could’ve had a lot more space to work with which is why i think the “term” was the biggest issue. Not denying their impact in our playoff run but I think the fact they’re on this team for another 2 years, and not expiring the same time Petey/Hughes are up for their extension is poorly planned out.

 

Boeser (5.88M) - Pettersson (8M) - Miller (5.25M)

Podkolzin (0.925M) - Horvat (5.5M) - Virtanen (3M)

Ferland (3.5M) - Gaudette (2M) - Hoglander (0.892M)

MacEwen (0.825M) - Beagle (3M) - Motte (1.23M)

Roussel (3M) - Eriksson (6M)

 

Hughes (8M)  - Myers (6M)

Rathbone (0.925M) - XXX 

Juolevi (1M) - XXX

Rafferty (1M) 

 

Demko (3M)

Holtby (4.3M)

Luongo (3.04M)

 

CAP SPACE: 5.2M

REMAINING SPOTS: 2 Dmen

 

 

Edited October 11, 2020 by freshhprince95

[mll]

4 hours ago, freshhprince95 said:

I used the Roussel and Beagle contracts as the examples but the list includes Eriksson, Roussel, Beagle and Ferland. If you actually run the numbers, it’s a lot tighter than you think for next season. The season where we finally have “space” is the 22/23 season

 

21/22: This is how it looks “Assuming” you get Petey/Hughes/Demko at a combined 19M AND Pod/Hog/Rathbone can step in. Again had Roussel and Beagle or even Eriksson a year shorter we could’ve had a lot more space to work with which is why i think the “term” was the biggest issue. Not denying their impact in our playoff run but I think the fact they’re on this team for another 2 years, and not expiring the same time Petey/Hughes are up for their extension is poorly planned out.

 

Boeser (5.88M) - Pettersson (8M) - Miller (5.25M)

Podkolzin (0.925M) - Horvat (5.5M) - Virtanen (3M)

Ferland (3.5M) - Gaudette (2M) - Hoglander (0.892M)

MacEwen (0.825M) - Beagle (3M) - Motte (1.23M)

Roussel (3M) - Eriksson (6M)

 

Hughes (8M)  - Myers (6M)

Rathbone (0.925M) - XXX 

Juolevi (1M) - XXX

Rafferty (1M) 

 

Demko (3M)

Holtby (4.3M)

Luongo (3.04M)

 

CAP SPACE: 5.2M

REMAINING SPOTS: 2 Dmen

 

 

 

Unless the Canucks operate well below the cap this coming season there will be a bonus overage that will carry over.  Pettersson and Hughes are still on their ELC and hit 1.7M this past season.  Pettersson could get an additional 2M if he is a top-10 player in the league in either 1 of goals, assists, points or points per game.  Juolevi, Rathbone and Podkolzin are also bonus eligible.  

 

Edited October 11, 2020 by mll

[freshhprince95]

1 minute ago, mll said:

 

Unless the Canucks operate well below the cap this coming season there will be a bonus overage that will carry over.  Pettersson and Hughes are still on their ELC and hit 1.7M this past season.  Pettersson could get an additional 2M if he is a top-player in the league in either 1 of goals, assists, points or points per game.  Juolevi, Rathbone and Podkolzin are also bonus eligible.  

 

Exactly which makes the cap situation even worse. There is literally no room to operate in terms of signings because of what I thought was the biggest issue, “term”. You just gotta hope someone bites on one the Eriksson/Roussel/Beagle contracts or if Ferland calls it quits. Maybe it becomes easier in the season when they only have a year left? We’ll see

[DownUndaCanuck]

The fact this is taking so long tells me JB is still working on it, if they had closed the door then Toffoli would have been snatched up quickly. 5x5 would be lovely.

[khay]

1 hour ago, freshhprince95 said:

I used the Roussel and Beagle contracts as the examples but the list includes Eriksson, Roussel, Beagle and Ferland. If you actually run the numbers, it’s a lot tighter than you think for next season. The season where we finally have “space” is the 22/23 season

 

21/22: This is how it looks “Assuming” you get Petey/Hughes/Demko at a combined 19M AND Pod/Hog/Rathbone can step in. Again had Roussel and Beagle or even Eriksson a year shorter we could’ve had a lot more space to work with which is why i think the “term” was the biggest issue. Not denying their impact in our playoff run but I think the fact they’re on this team for another 2 years, and not expiring the same time Petey/Hughes are up for their extension is poorly planned out.

 

Boeser (5.88M) - Pettersson (8M) - Miller (5.25M)

Podkolzin (0.925M) - Horvat (5.5M) - Virtanen (3M)

Ferland (3.5M) - Gaudette (2M) - Hoglander (0.892M)

MacEwen (0.825M) - Beagle (3M) - Motte (1.23M)

Roussel (3M) - Eriksson (6M)

 

Hughes (8M)  - Myers (6M)

Rathbone (0.925M) - XXX 

Juolevi (1M) - XXX

Rafferty (1M) 

 

Demko (3M)

Holtby (4.3M)

Luongo (3.04M)

 

CAP SPACE: 5.2M

REMAINING SPOTS: 2 Dmen

 

 

Thanks for doing the numbers.

 

Yes, it's not ideal. But note that Eriksson can be bought out in the last year of his contract, saving us 2.3m. If Roussel is not playing, he can be boughtout for 1.8m. That gives us additional 4.1m.

 

Ferland is very likely to be on LTIR. He's tried a comeback 3, 4 times and each time didn't last more than a game. He's likely done. 

 

In total, we will have about 9-13 mil in cap space.

 

And if the cap is still a problem because of bonus overage then, EP and QH will just have to be signed to bridge deals. We don't have a choice and they don't have much right. But I don't think bonus will be a problem since we will have 7 mil in space this season.

 

[UKNuck96]

1 hour ago, khay said:

Thanks for doing the numbers.

 

Yes, it's not ideal. But note that Eriksson can be bought out in the last year of his contract, saving us 2.3m. If Roussel is not playing, he can be boughtout for 1.8m. That gives us additional 4.1m.

 

Ferland is very likely to be on LTIR. He's tried a comeback 3, 4 times and each time didn't last more than a game. He's likely done. 

 

In total, we will have about 9-13 mil in cap space.

 

And if the cap is still a problem because of bonus overage then, EP and QH will just have to be signed to bridge deals. We don't have a choice and they don't have much right. But I don't think bonus will be a problem since we will have 7 mil in space this season.

 

We should not be buying our players, especially when there is so little term left. Just deal with it and allow us to progress in a couple of years.

 

buying out just prolongs the pain and means we suffer for more years 

[mll]

2 hours ago, khay said:

Thanks for doing the numbers.

 

Yes, it's not ideal. But note that Eriksson can be bought out in the last year of his contract, saving us 2.3m. If Roussel is not playing, he can be boughtout for 1.8m. That gives us additional 4.1m.

 

Ferland is very likely to be on LTIR. He's tried a comeback 3, 4 times and each time didn't last more than a game. He's likely done. 

 

In total, we will have about 9-13 mil in cap space.

 

And if the cap is still a problem because of bonus overage then, EP and QH will just have to be signed to bridge deals. We don't have a choice and they don't have much right. But I don't think bonus will be a problem since we will have 7 mil in space this season.

 

 

3.3M more cap space if both Roussel and Eriksson are bought out in a year.  Eriksson's buyout cap hit is 4M and Roussel's 1.7M.  

 

Can't use LTIR money to pay bonuses.  Having Ferland on LTIR would guarantee that bonuses get pushed over to next season - so an automatic 1.7M against the cap + more if Juolevi, Rathbone, Pettersson hit on additional targets.  

 

 

[FireGillis]

6 hours ago, thundernuts said:

 

When they revised the rule to let other teams off the hook, but not the Canucks, it was another kick in the nuts.

 

One, point of clarification here. The NHL isn't at fault here. The canucks very much could have taken advantage of the LTIR loophole like other teams. However Florida told Luongo to retire instead of going on LTIR and since his loyalty was with Florida now and they were going to offer him a job, he listened to them and retired instead of going on LTIR which he could have easily with his injuries. I blame Florida for the recapture penalty and not the NHL here. They chose to screw us, so &^@# Dave Tallon! I'm glad he got fired! 

Edited October 11, 2020 by FireGillis

[VforVasili]

8 hours ago, ba;;isticsports said:

Covid and the flat cap isn’t causing these issues. It’s only amplifying them. The Canucks have nobody to blame but themselves, and now they have to make some very difficult decisions

You are right. The pandemic isn’t the only thing causing this issue. There is also:

 

- the Luongo recapture penalty

- the fact that both Petey and Hughes are way ahead of their expected development curve

 

[oldnews]

2 hours ago, VforVirtanen said:

You are right. The pandemic isn’t the only thing causing this issue. There is also:

 

- the Luongo recapture penalty

- the fact that both Petey and Hughes are way ahead of their expected development curve

 

What makes me laugh is all the noise to the effect that the cause of their cap tightness are Beagle or Roussel - they were so overpaidz - er 'everyone' knowz it!'....

We heard the same whining about Dorsett - who was excellent for us - came in, had a 25 pt season and did nothing but put his hear on the ice every shift and risk his health in the process.   Beagle and Roussel likewise - hard workers that sacrifice - and in Beagle's case a foundational hard minutes center that is an elite faceoff guy.

I suspect they might be able to move Roussel if they tried - but I doubt moving either of these guys was ever on the table nor a priority.  Personally at this point I would look to move Roussel - because players like him, or Pearson are wingers that are more moveable than cap dumps like LE or Baer.

Further- their opinion  - is not in fact shared by 'everyone' - it's shared by a particular highlight reel element of elementary 'analytics' peddlars and vocal critics here - when I suspect the majority of these boards would not reduce this team's cap problems to 'overpaid bottom sixez'.

 

The bottom line here - if they were anywhere near as bad as the highlight reelers believed - and the team were to waive them,  they still represent merely 1.95 million of cap space each...which is literally a minor fraction relative to the real, much larger issues.

 

The real cap problems the Canucks face:

1) Eriksson - 4.95 even if waived, (6 if not)

2) Baertschi - 2.3 even if waived (3.36)  - and unable to contribute due to concussion ruining his career.

3) Luongo - 3 million of recrap penalty - that has nothing to do with Benning.

4) Covid stalll = 81.5 million is a significant, unprojectable gap between expected increase.

Quote

The NHL is projecting an increase for its salary cap next season.NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly announced Wednesday at the NHL GM Meetings that the salary cap would be between $84 – $88.2 million for the 2020-21 season.

This is the only thing that "everyone" agreed on - that the cap would be raising between 84-88.2 - a 2.5 to 6.7 million increase - likely to fall somewhere in between.

 

The easy math there....Eriksson's cap is Benning's responsibility, Baertschi like all other injured players is not, Luongo recrap is not Benning's fault, nor is Covid...

 

That is 6+3.36 = 9.36 million, +3 recrap, + 2.5 to 6.7 million = 14.86 million minimum, 19.06 maximum.... 8.86 to 13.06 of that is not Benning's responsibilty.

 

6 million of that is Benning's responsibility.

3.36 belongs to concussions and the need to replace Baertschi in the middle six. 

5.5 million to 9.7 million to recrap and stalled cap...

All the noise around Jay Beagle is absurd - it's whining over minimal margins - and for the most part, completely ignorant of his value as a player - and to add to the irony - some of the same folks whining about Beagle or Roussel....propose to eat the Tyler Johnson contract....

 

Jay Beagle contract! Jay Beagle contract!  I'ma so much smarder than Bennig!

 

The team has 7.98 million of cap space.

The absolute minimum unforseeable, not Benning's fault recrap and Covid - is 5.5 million - and more likely in the 7 to 7.5 million range.

 

They would be sitting with conservatively 14 million easily, or more likely 15 million or more of cap space.

4.5 for a Tanev likewise if were detemined to re-sign Toffoli.  

9 million spent, 6 remaining.

Add 1.7 more if they were to re-sign Markstrom at Lames terms as opposed to Holtby.

That leaves 4.3 remaining to deal with their overage/bonuses - and 3.5 of IR relief if Ferland is not in fact healthy. 

That is if they do nothing about LE or Baertschi.....

 

Much ado about dishonest hindsighting that ignores the much larger issues to micro-whine about Beagles.

[Ilya Mikheyev]

Quite the FA logjam amongst forwards: Tofu, Hall, Dadonov, Granlund, Hoffman, Namestnikov, Haula, Janmark, Perry, Kovalchuk and Brassard all remain unsigned.

[73 Percent]

Just now, Teemu Selänne said:

Quite the FA logjam amongst forwards: Tofu, Hall, Dadonov, Granlund, Hoffman, Namestnikov, Haula, Janmark, Perry, Kovalchuk and Brassard all remain unsigned.

With teams blowing their load on the first day (like the laffs and cowgary) you'd have to think that some of the remaining UFAs price points have dropped. 

 

I'm not going to pretend that there aren't holes right now. But I like Bennings hard nose style. This is the price we're willing to pay and that's the bottom line. They tells me he's learned from previous years. 

[Boudrias]

10 hours ago, ba;;isticsports said:

The problem is that they got themselves into this situation in the first place. The Vancouver Canucks were a team that hadn’t made the playoffs in the last half decade. They were competing for the 1st overall draft picks, not the Stanley Cup Their top two players are still on ELCs. Captain Horvat , along with Miller and Boeser who are making under $6M,  While there two best players are on ELC. The fact that they are in a cap crunch at this point in time is downright inexcusable.

Covid and the flat cap isn’t causing these issues. It’s only amplifying them. The Canucks have nobody to blame but themselves, and now they have to make some very difficult decisions

I think you are reacting to the contracts you don't like out of context from the time they were made. The CAP was growing by $3-4 million a year when Erickson was signed. JB has a challenge to deal with no doubt about that. 

[Ilya Mikheyev]

3 minutes ago, 73 Percent said:

With teams blowing their load on the first day (like the laffs and cowgary) you'd have to think that some of the remaining UFAs price points have dropped. 

 

I'm not going to pretend that there aren't holes right now. But I like Bennings hard nose style. This is the price we're willing to pay and that's the bottom line. They tells me he's learned from previous years. 

I'm not worried just yet either. Two additions (Granlund/OEL or Johnson/Cernak or Duclair/Savard for example), along with Juolevi making the team, and a bunch of players continuing to develop would still put next year's team ahead of last year's.

[oldnews]

6 minutes ago, Teemu Selänne said:

Quite the FA logjam amongst forwards: Tofu, Hall, Dadonov, Granlund, Hoffman, Namestnikov, Haula, Janmark, Perry, Kovalchuk and Brassard all remain unsigned.

I would probably forego all of them - including Toffoli - and get rid of the overage/bonus up front.

 

Add a couple depth defensemen below the 1.05 threshold (of waivable cap) - Fantenburg for one, a RHD for the other (and there have been some good bargain signings in this range).

Spend 4 million on a RHD - a Savard or Manson bargain acquisition (in this deflated market) - or spend more for a younger fixture.

And then sit on 4ish million to dispose of the bonus/overage.

 

Keep the flexibility in the bank for that period when EP and Hughes have re-upped.

 

It's possible they gain 3.5 million to work with in the more immediate term, if Ferland is not healthy.   They can go into the season, see how the team fares - really the only paper setbacks over where they were this year would be Markstrom to Holtby and possibly Tanev to whomever his replacement will be.   Counter that with internal uptick - and it's not obvious on any level whether the team regresses, sustains or gains a bit of competitiveness - there are simply far too many variables.

 

Terminating Eriksson also remains a possibility that the team really should leverage/play hardball on that front.  It's waivers, and he's played his last game in this uniform.  Period.

 

But regardless -  dont' throw good money after bad - take the loss of Toffoli that Covid caused - and move on imo. 

If they had managed to add an OEL, dump LE in the process, retain Markstrom, and/or re-sign Tanev....then perhaps you follow that by turning every stone to try to make a Toffoli happen - but my approach would be to look at and accept the realities - and proceed conservatively.  That might not meet ownerships approval - but I don't have to serve two masters...