Time To Jettison Aging Vets?

[smithers joe]

there will be more money because seattle will take someone from us.  ?

everything is easy for us but JB is living in the real world where it always takes two, to tango.

after next season, most over paid contracts will be gone, if they can't be moved now, plus luongo's and spooners recapture contracts will be gone.  it looks like pearson is going to be resigned. what will it cost us to a forward crew like this?

hoglander...petey...boeser; pearson...horvat...lind; vesey...miller...podkolzin; motte...macewen...boyd/hawryluk

that leaves, sutter, beagle, roussel, virtanen, louie and gaudette to move or not.

i think JT can carry a line by himself. we should be able to make 3 scoring lines and one checking line. of course i'm just a couch potato with a key board.

Edited March 31, 2021 by smithers joe

[IBatch]

34 minutes ago, smithers joe said:

there will be more money because seattle will take someone from us.  ?

everything is easy for us but JB is living in the real world where it always takes two, to tango.

after next season, most over paid contracts will be gone, if they can't be moved now, plus luongo's and spooners recapture contracts will be gone.  it looks like pearson is going to be resigned. what will it cost us to a forward crew like this?

hoglander...petey...boeser; pearson...horvat...lind; vesey...miller...podkolzin; motte...macewen...boyd/hawryluk

that leaves, sutter, beagle, roussel, virtanen, louie and gaudette to move or not.

i think JT can carry a line by himself. we should be able to make 3 scoring lines and one checking line. of course i'm just a couch potato with a key board.

Might be a couch potato with a keyboard, but you do offer a lot on this site, experience matters.   If the CDC decided to jettison all the wisdom from this site like this thread suggests, well i guess there would be a lot of new ideas and a lot more memes.     Bad anology lol.   For sure it takes two to tango, and there are 30 other teams trying to achieve the exact same thing so where does that really leave us?   From where i'm sitting it means don't expect much of anything at all to happen, and just be happy me got Motte for Vanek, he's the last guy anyone was truly interested in and for good reason.    Retention helps a little of course, but i do wonder how many other Pearson's and Sutters are out there, plus some teams have said they won't make a trade unless it makes sense for them and there is actual term left (CHI).   

 

Edit:  It means this.   ONE more season and that's it.    Odds are next year will also be a little Covid affected still, but for sure some normalcy will come with it.   That said players will owe so much money to the owners, it's going to take 3-6 years to pay it back.   50/50 split.  In a way the hockey gods have given Vancouver a favour.   There will still be deals for a couple seasons on decent blue chip players, like TT.     Just hope we have settled down by then, and have a great season so we can attract the two or three UFAs we will need to fill these spots.    Decent odds that's exactly what will happen. 

Edited March 31, 2021 by IBatch

[DSVII]

I lean towards the second option. It is too early. (edit: 'Too early' in the context of JB's new revised timeline. My thoughts on the disastrous lack of foresight of going all in in UFA for 2019 and trading for rentals for 2020 can be saved for the other threads.)

 

If we retained Toffoli, we would have had enough of a solid top 6 core to justify needing cap to make a push next year. As it stands, we have holes right now in our D and Forward Depth, and the cap we save buying out the vets to bring in players that can augment this team won't be enough. Rather sit the next year and wait for the vet contracts to expire.

 

Keep only 1 of Benn/Ham - Keep Hamonic

Goodbye to Eddie - Try and see if he takes a 1-2 year, $2 mill deal. He can take Benn's spot

Return the Bfg from Siberia - Honestly think this ship has sailed. He's been too far out of the NA game to become a top 4 anymore, but I'd love to see what he brings

Buyout for LouiE - You absolutely buy out Loui though, regardless of whether we push or not, $ 2mil in savings is an extra roster player rather than a guy who is perpetually scratched

Maybe another for AR -If the team finds a younger depth player who is more effective for next year's roster, then yes. (Maybe as a way to retain Boyd or Vesey and transition the bottom 6 into what it should be cap wise.)

 

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by DSVII

[IBatch]

4 minutes ago, DSVII said:

I lean towards the second option. It is too early. ('Too early' in the context of JB's new revised timeline. My thoughts on the disastrous lack of foresight of going all in in UFA for 2019 and trading for rentals for 2020 can be saved for the other threads.)

 

If we retained Toffoli, we would have had enough of a solid top 6 core to justify needing cap to make a push next year. As it stands, we have holes right now in our D and Forward Depth, and the cap we save buying out the vets to bring in players that can augment this team won't be enough. Rather sit the next year and wait for the vet contracts to expire.

 

Keep only 1 of Benn/Ham - Keep Hamonic

Goodbye to Eddie - Try and see if he takes a 1-2 year, $2 mill deal. He can take Benn's spot

Return the Bfg from Siberia - Honestly think this ship has sailed. He's been too far out of the NA game to become a top 4 anymore, but I'd love to see what he brings

Buyout for LouiE - You absolutely buy out Loui though, regardless of whether we push or not

Maybe another for AR -If the team finds a younger depth player who is more effective for next year's roster, then yes. (Maybe as a way to retain Boyd or Vesey and transition the bottom 6 into what it should be cap wise.)

 

 

Why buyout LE and extend the pain?   We've gone this far with him.   One more year.   Have to be because we pick someone up amazing.  Otherwise no way. 

[higgyfan]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Might be a couch potato with a keyboard, but you do offer a lot on this site, experience matters.   If the CDC decided to jettison all the wisdom from this site like this thread suggests, well i guess there would be a lot of new ideas and a lot more memes.     Bad anology lol.   For sure it takes two to tango, and there are 30 other teams trying to achieve the exact same thing so where does that really leave us?   From where i'm sitting it means don't expect much of anything at all to happen, and just be happy me got Motte for Vanek, he's the last guy anyone was truly interested in and for good reason.    Retention helps a little of course, but i do wonder how many other Pearson's and Sutters are out there, plus some teams have said they won't make a trade unless it makes sense for them and there is actual term left (CHI).   

 

Edit:  It means this.   ONE more season and that's it.    Odds are next year will also be a little Covid affected still, but for sure some normalcy will come with it.   That said players will owe so much money to the owners, it's going to take 3-6 years to pay it back.   50/50 split.  In a way the hockey gods have given Vancouver a favour.   There will still be deals for a couple seasons on decent blue chip players, like TT.     Just hope we have settled down by then, and have a great season so we can attract the two or three UFAs we will need to fill these spots.    Decent odds that's exactly what will happen. 

Great post, Batch!  Fans need to calm down and be patient.  The coming season will be more development of core players and introducing some rookies to the NHL game.  Maybe/maybe not challenge for a playoff spot

 

With Sutter leaving, the team has a huge gap in the 3C position; a gap that cannot be filled by any player connected to the team.  It's hard to believe that Gaud or Lind are anywhere near ready to become a permanent solution.  This season's UFA has 3 or 4 excellent players that are young (26) and may be signed with a decent contract.  If that is the only UFA signing, other than Hamonic or Tryamkin, I would be happy.

 

I'll be interested in what happens in the upcoming draft, as I think the team will have a top 5 pick and a high 2nd round pick. 

 

This team will be in very good shape for the 22/23 season and beyond.

Edited March 31, 2021 by higgyfan

[J.I.A.H.N]

9 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

You can't time our window to the exact date.  We may be contenders in 2 years or it may take 4 years, or it may take longer.  Tampa won the Cup last year when Hedman and Stamkos were pushing 30, so BO still has lots of time.  Heck even Miller at 31 or 32 may still be a decent player.

 

We have lots of young kids on the way that need to play.  I agree if we get a crazy offer for Schmidt you trade him, but you still need some veterans around to win.  Not every team is going to peak at the exact same time.  Posters always use Chicago as an example of needing to win a Cup when your star players are in their ELC years, but the reality is most teams don't win a Cup until their stars are in their mid to late 20's.

As usual, I agree with you

 

But, yes, you certainly need veterans, I think the question is where you get them from

Did they just grow from within, were they traded for, or were they signed as UFA's

IMO, Benning's past signings, have not been to win a cup, but to give that veteran leadership

and they did, but of the most part they were journeymen hockey players

 

IMO, this time around, with so many young guys on the team, we need top end leaders

who can dominate their shift. Not guys that are just hanging on, every shift

I do not advocate signing many, just guys that know how to win battles, and make statements

Miller is one such type.......he does not like loosing and lets every one know it

 

I watched the Boston/NJ game last night, where Boston clawed their way back in the game

But in the game, Halak let in the 4th goal, where the goal scorer was not tied up

He was steaming mad, and it was very apparent, Marchand also had a fight.....not something he does

Boston v=came back twice in the game, and the announcers were commenting how the veterans 

just dragged the team, into the game...............

 

It is not the fight, or the tantum that I am commenting on, but the obvious statement they made

As much as I hate Boston, loosing was not being allowed to happen...not acceptable

So the guys you sign are the Lowry type players or the Hamilton type that do not let it happen in the first place

I may be one  of the minority here on this, but of the players on that list I posted

None, minus maybe Beagle play like that. Roussel, is just a sht disturber type, who runs around with no purpose

 

Funny, but as I type this, I am thinking that I keep Myers over Schmidt, as Myers certainly cares

But again, if he can bring in a solid pick, I trade him..............same with Schmidt

I say picks, because I am not of the belief generally, that you get good prospects in trades

But rather lesser prospects that have been pushed down their depth chart

I look at our own chart for the clarity on that..........what would it take to get a Hogs, or Pods from us?

The answer, a very good player, as they just are not offered for anything else

 

But yes, you do not give up all your veterans, but if you do, you should be replacing them with talent

 

As for the timing, I think it has to be around 2 years from now, or our core are not going to do it

which means to me, that we have to support them with more talent, because there is not enough

Your depth needs to go all the way to your 3rd line, for your team to have real depth

We are not there yet, not with our prospects or with our vets

[24K PureCool]

50 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Why buyout LE and extend the pain?   We've gone this far with him.   One more year.   Have to be because we pick someone up amazing.  Otherwise no way. 

Cause it saves as $2mil in cap space next year and only cost us $1mil in cap space the following year when we have Lu's cap hit finally off the books. I guess Spooner too (not sure if that comes off this year or the next)? 

[ShawnAntoski]

10 hours ago, Nucksownyou said:

Benning signed Holtby because he didn't want to put too much on Demko's shoulders right away. Demko was alway going to be the starter going forward. I don't know why that is so hard for people to figure out.

 

And stop acting like Pettersson and Hughes are getting $10+ million on their next contracts. They're NOT getting that much. We will have over $20 million in cap space this off season, and even after Pettersson, Hughes and Demko re-sign, there will still be a bit left over to get some depth pieces. So no, we do not need to buyout Holtby. If anyone is getting bought out, it will be Eriksson, not Holtby.

Yeah, at the time of the signing, I did not like the cost but more so the term.  JB has to get past this mentoring theory and instead give the rookie a chance to play legit minutes and if the rookie fails then sign a cheap mentor option cause these types of moves has not really worked out too well (too much term & cap cost) - hindsight.   

[IBatch]

27 minutes ago, 24K PureCool said:

Cause it saves as $2mil in cap space next year and only cost us $1mil in cap space the following year when we have Lu's cap hit finally off the books. I guess Spooner too (not sure if that comes off this year or the next)? 

True - team saves 1 million in cap space, but why spend it all before we have it?   This is the sort of thing the team needs to avoid, way too easy to suck away 2 million in cap early and left your pants down when it comes to signing an impact player.   Like i said, only way i'd be ok is if we sign one heck of a player this off season - hate to see it just wasted wouldn't you? 

 

Edit: In other words Hamilton.  Don't want to see this happen just to pay our second contracts plus Pearson back ... ugh.  Worst case scenario IMO. 

Edited March 31, 2021 by IBatch

[DSVII]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Why buyout LE and extend the pain?   We've gone this far with him.   One more year.   Have to be because we pick someone up amazing.  Otherwise no way. 

I think this answer is going to depend on how much we end up extending Petey, Hughes, Demko for. And whether we can sign depth for cheap. 

 

We'll have $29 mil in cap for the offeseason to extend these 3 (assuming Petey and Hughes are both 6 mil, Demko 3 mil.) Then we'd have 14 mil left to sign 

 

three defensemen 

a top 6 winger (or top 9)

a 3 C

and 1 depth forward

 

I'm pretty confident we can fill the depth role for cheap, Podholzin fingers-crossed, can transition to a top 6 role, and Edler agrees to take a significant discount. We'll be helped by the depressed salaries from flat cap a little, I'm not saying it is impossible. If we can fit this, then for sure let's eat Loui's cap for one more year.

 

Basically no more trying to chase OELs this offseason, be more prudent and measured and spend on cost effective guys.

Edited March 31, 2021 by DSVII

[IBatch]

8 minutes ago, DSVII said:

I think this answer is going to depend on how much we end up extending Petey, Hughes, Demko for. And whether we can sign depth for cheap. 

 

We'll have $29 mil in cap for the offeseason to extend these 4 (assuming Petey and Hughes are both 6 mil, Demko 3 mil.) Then we'd have 14 mil left to sign 

 

three defensemen 

a top 6 winger (or top 9)

a 3 C

and 1 depth forward

 

I'm pretty confident we can fill the depth role for cheap, Podholzin fingers-crossed, can transition to a top 6 role, and Edler agrees to take a significant discount. We'll be helped by the depressed salaries from flat cap a little, I'm not saying it is impossible. If we can fit this, then for sure let's eat Loui's cap for one more year.

 

Basically no more trying to chase OELs this offseason, be more prudent and measured and spend on cost effective guys.

Edler's money is one of the biggest factors this off season.   I'd love to see the team sign him to a 3.5 x 3 deal but don't know if he'd accept that.   There are other options.   If for example, and i know this is a remote one,  Hamilton was interested in coming here (again know this is very remote), would much rather spend the money on him and then an LE buyout makes some sense.   Aside from that ... well i certainly hope we don't have to buyout LE just to fit in what we already have, but it could be the case.   I know JB said he wants to keep Pearson, but he also said that about Markstrom,  Tanev and even hinted TT so don't read too much into that.   Would be surprised if he did.

 

Edit:  Your numbers are a lot more reasonable then the ones i've seen floating around.   I see Demko getting a inflation/covid deal like Markstrom got before his current one, 3.75 x 3 at most 4.   EP and QHs both between 6 and 6.5 on long bridges.   So pretty darn close, nice to see a level head when it comes to these things.  

Edited March 31, 2021 by IBatch

[xereau]

I think we should keep Edler, and play him in the bottom pairing for another season, or even two, with up and comers from within the system.

 

Benn I could take or leave.

 

Buying out Loui saves us 1 mill in capspace. Do it.

 

Hamonic still has shelf life.

Sutter might be worth a little to a team making a run. Beagle too.

Roussel is worth nothing.

 

I'm looking forward to a younger bottom 6 with speed, with a different coaching perspective.

Edited March 31, 2021 by xereau

[xereau]

25 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Yeah, at the time of the signing, I did not like the cost but more so the term.  JB has to get past this mentoring theory and instead give the rookie a chance to play legit minutes and if the rookie fails then sign a cheap mentor option cause these types of moves has not really worked out too well (too much term & cap cost) - hindsight.   

Every team has mentors, I just don't think you need near half a dozen of them.

[IBatch]

22 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Yeah, at the time of the signing, I did not like the cost but more so the term.  JB has to get past this mentoring theory and instead give the rookie a chance to play legit minutes and if the rookie fails then sign a cheap mentor option cause these types of moves has not really worked out too well (too much term & cap cost) - hindsight.   

Overall JB has done a decent job with his contracts (aside from LE of course).  The best thing about JB is he's steadily improved.    Continuity matters.    I'm not sure if he's the next Poile or the next something else but sure hope he's the next Poile or Holland even.   At this point it's the second time in our history that virtually the entire team (minus Edler and Horvat) is his.   Quin managed it.   And he's a legend but really under his tutelage the best teams we've ever iced both on paper and as far as playoffs go, was also dismantled and thrown out.    JB (or Dim Jim as some haters like to call him), has done a pretty good job overall.   I'm worried like the haters that he will make a mess of what he's accomplished.   But not that worried.  He's done more good then harm.   Maybe this core will fizzle out, maybe it won't.   But for sure he's done enough to see it through.   

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, janisahockeynut said:

As usual, I agree with you

 

But, yes, you certainly need veterans, I think the question is where you get them from

Did they just grow from within, were they traded for, or were they signed as UFA's

IMO, Benning's past signings, have not been to win a cup, but to give that veteran leadership

and they did, but of the most part they were journeymen hockey players

 

IMO, this time around, with so many young guys on the team, we need top end leaders

who can dominate their shift. Not guys that are just hanging on, every shift

I do not advocate signing many, just guys that know how to win battles, and make statements

Miller is one such type.......he does not like loosing and lets every one know it

 

I watched the Boston/NJ game last night, where Boston clawed their way back in the game

But in the game, Halak let in the 4th goal, where the goal scorer was not tied up

He was steaming mad, and it was very apparent, Marchand also had a fight.....not something he does

Boston v=came back twice in the game, and the announcers were commenting how the veterans 

just dragged the team, into the game...............

 

It is not the fight, or the tantum that I am commenting on, but the obvious statement they made

As much as I hate Boston, loosing was not being allowed to happen...not acceptable

So the guys you sign are the Lowry type players or the Hamilton type that do not let it happen in the first place

I may be one  of the minority here on this, but of the players on that list I posted

None, minus maybe Beagle play like that. Roussel, is just a sht disturber type, who runs around with no purpose

 

Funny, but as I type this, I am thinking that I keep Myers over Schmidt, as Myers certainly cares

But again, if he can bring in a solid pick, I trade him..............same with Schmidt

I say picks, because I am not of the belief generally, that you get good prospects in trades

But rather lesser prospects that have been pushed down their depth chart

I look at our own chart for the clarity on that..........what would it take to get a Hogs, or Pods from us?

The answer, a very good player, as they just are not offered for anything else

 

But yes, you do not give up all your veterans, but if you do, you should be replacing them with talent

 

As for the timing, I think it has to be around 2 years from now, or our core are not going to do it

which means to me, that we have to support them with more talent, because there is not enough

Your depth needs to go all the way to your 3rd line, for your team to have real depth

We are not there yet, not with our prospects or with our vets

Janis you'd make a great assistant GM, as for sure you see all the angles everywhere and are also willing to trade anyone on the spot.  Ruthless lol.   Myers has spirit, we can't let that go at least without a fight.   Numbers are just numbers.   Not looking forward to fans bearing down on EP and QHs after their next contracts but for sure it will happen if they falter even a little.   Miss the times when nobody knew what anyone was payed and just indentified to who players played.   Times have changed for sure.   Makes a lot of sense to do the arithmetic.   But it doesn't cover intangibles at all does it? 

[IBatch]

14 minutes ago, xereau said:

Every team has mentors, I just don't think you need near half a dozen of them.

Name a team in the league right now that doesn't have half a dozen of them. 

[aGENT]

On 3/30/2021 at 11:29 AM, aGENT said:

@Kootenay GoldI outlined this yesterday in another thread.

 

After differed bonuses and re-signing Petey, Hughes and Demko ($18m) etc, we have about $10m. Add an (all but certain) Eriksson buyout and we're up to about $12m.

 

Plus we're going to lose someone's cap in the ED.

 

Add Rathbone, Podkolzin, likely Lind or similar and that's around $3m. Tryamkin around $2m.

 

I'm hoping we can trade (Virtanen + ?) for the 3C we need adding about $500k-$1m.

 

My math shows about $5-$6m left to re-sign one of Edler or Hamonic.

 

Buyout Roussel as well and we gain another $1.2m (minus his replacement). Someone like Boyd or Hawryluck on a $700-$800k deal saves another half million.

 

We have plenty of space.

Brought this ^^^ up elsewhere. No we don't need to buyout Holtby (ridiculous). Eriksson? ABSOLUTELY. Roussel (unfortunately hasn't been the same since his knee injury)? Maybe.

 

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Why buyout LE and extend the pain?   We've gone this far with him.   One more year.   Have to be because we pick someone up amazing.  Otherwise no way. 

Because, beyond giving us some extra cap breathing room, it also saves ownership real, actual cash. And spreads that lesser cash over two years. Frank will be more than happy to lessen that anchor's pull on his wallet.

[ShawnAntoski]

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

Overall JB has done a decent job with his contracts (aside from LE of course).  The best thing about JB is he's steadily improved.    Continuity matters.    I'm not sure if he's the next Poile or the next something else but sure hope he's the next Poile or Holland even.   At this point it's the second time in our history that virtually the entire team (minus Edler and Horvat) is his.   Quin managed it.   And he's a legend but really under his tutelage the best teams we've ever iced both on paper and as far as playoffs go, was also dismantled and thrown out.    JB (or Dim Jim as some haters like to call him), has done a pretty good job overall.   I'm worried like the haters that he will make a mess of what he's accomplished.   But not that worried.  He's done more good then harm.   Maybe this core will fizzle out, maybe it won't.   But for sure he's done enough to see it through.   

Ditto, drafting the young core alone  gives him a lot of leeway for me (rather trading for them).   I was just mainly venting a little bit of frustration from our first time GM; moving forward, I still hope he gets a chance to win with his core and hopefully, Aquaman can hire a team president (first) that can work with JB.   

Edited March 31, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[coolboarder]

Yes, if we lose tonight, say goodbye to the playoff chance and it's time to unload some of the vets with expiring deal or with one season remaining and explore the free agents for more vets if Benning is inclined to do it so.   They still can perform in the playoffs as some of vets has shown us that they still can perform in the playoffs with players such as Sutter or Beagle or Edler if he is willing to waive the NMC.  

[Ballisticsports.]

10 hours ago, Nucksownyou said:

Benning signed Holtby because he didn't want to put too much on Demko's shoulders right away. Demko was alway going to be the starter going forward. I don't know why that is so hard for people to figure out.

 

And stop acting like Pettersson and Hughes are getting $10+ million on their next contracts. They're NOT getting that much. We will have over $20 million in cap space this off season, and even after Pettersson, Hughes and Demko re-sign, there will still be a bit left over to get some depth pieces. So no, we do not need to buyout Holtby. If anyone is getting bought out, it will be Eriksson, not Holtby.

I understand why Benning signed Holtby but I myself was never was excited about the  Holtby signing and had confidence in Demko's ability and was actually upset when Lundqvist signed a one-year, $1.5 million contract compared to what we signed Holtby or could have signed Schneider at $700k for 1 year as examples. Now hearing of talk of buying out another recent signing in Holtby? What i find hard to accept is that all our signings are the ones people talk of buying out ,because no team finds value in what we pay