Finally dawned on me why we let Gaudette go for so little in return

[Primal Optimist]

Yes Mr Trout, I am aware of all the arguments that prompted my post, nice summary though. We can agree to disagree. I like following timelines in the order nature intended. At the moment in time when the flat cap happened and Toffoli's contract was due we simply COULD NOT sign him. That is all there is and all i got. Not interested in a debate of every move that led for six years up to that moment in time, as that is pointless and clearly in the covid era, Ahbed was right, we are on the worst time line, lol. 

[ShawnAntoski]

39 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

They were both not good hockey players. On their way out regardless.

I would say inconsistent.   Preferably, I would like to see JV with a new staff but the stigma of this situation, has attached itself on him now; and (imo) his days as a Canuck are done.   

Edited May 3, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[King Heffy]

1 hour ago, Gawdzukes said:

Holy crap, this thread is filled with posters who know nothing about hockey. Not you but the usuals who just show up to bash management, with their dumb takes.

Never thought I'd see Pat Quinn called a clown on here.

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

I guess I'm more tired of the pattern than any individual deal per se. I like Pearson, just not for 3 years. Love Beagle and Rous, just not for 3 or 4 years. 

 

I know the Tryamkin thing was just us likely being played by Nik and his agent but I still don[t know why they let that relationship get so bad in the 1st place.

 

Anyway, like I said I don't have the pitchforks out and I won't be supporting the Benning haters, just happy to see a change if there's a GM upgrade out there somewhere. 

 

Could we paste this somewhere?  Change sometimes, just for the sake of change isn't a bad thing.   Team did it with Nonis.   I do feel that JB has earned the right to see the team through, but only because he passed on the 80 million in contracts he avoided last off-season, and because his crew has drafted well and only because he's heavily involved in that process (a hands on drafter).   That said if Lou was available i'd say come on down and wrap this up in a bow.   It really depends on who they'd get to do it.   Burke...well i know what he'd do - but he's also no longer an option.   And if he was expect the core to be blown apart at the seems. 

 

At this point, more then anything, it's time to take a deep breath.    JB isn't a bad GM i know that.   Has a chance to become another good one really.   Also could fall flat and never get another job like MG (highly doubt that).   His peers respect him.   Dialogue is always open.   And is a very hard worker by all accounts.  I'm ok with either acquiring a huge name to come in and tidy things up, or the status quo.   What if don't what is done Chakya-Dubas type getting hired.    No thanks.    

[JM_]

25 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Could we paste this somewhere?  Change sometimes, just for the sake of change isn't a bad thing.   Team did it with Nonis.   I do feel that JB has earned the right to see the team through, but only because he passed on the 80 million in contracts he avoided last off-season, and because his crew has drafted well and only because he's heavily involved in that process (a hands on drafter).   That said if Lou was available i'd say come on down and wrap this up in a bow.   It really depends on who they'd get to do it.   Burke...well i know what he'd do - but he's also no longer an option.   And if he was expect the core to be blown apart at the seems. 

 

At this point, more then anything, it's time to take a deep breath.    JB isn't a bad GM i know that.   Has a chance to become another good one really.   Also could fall flat and never get another job like MG (highly doubt that).   His peers respect him.   Dialogue is always open.   And is a very hard worker by all accounts.  I'm ok with either acquiring a huge name to come in and tidy things up, or the status quo.   What if don't what is done Chakya-Dubas type getting hired.    No thanks.    

agree with all of that.

[Coconuts]

4 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

yup thats pretty much it. Just think we need a GM better skilled on the pro-side now to complete the rebuild to being competitive. 

 

 

Agreed, the pro ranks are important going forward 

[Fred65]

17 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

agree with all of that.

 

Every decission made by management is a reflection of the summer of 2018, Beagle Rousell, Beartschi and lest we forget Tim Schaller ( $11.3 million ) The Summer of 2018 it all went down hill.  By the way they resigned Gudbranson for $4 mill in 2018 as well .... man what a year to forget. Don't look at this as a current crisis this stated in 2014 when JB stated 

 

Quote

“I like this team - I like the core players. This is a team we can turn around in a hurry.” - Benning

— Vancouver Canucks (@VanCanucks) May 23, 2014

For those that buy tickets that is a lot of wasted money spent since that moment in history. And as Kevin Bieska stated 5 years should be enough to rebuild

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Fred65

[RomanP]

21 hours ago, Harold27k said:

because Benning and Green let it out during the covid stoppage he was the 1st guy to be into covid quarantine. And maybe was the scapegoat as to majority of team getting sick? 

 Why else do you take Matthew Highmore in return who has zero goals in 30 games this yr?

But lets add this list Beagle/Rouselle/Vessy/Micalief/Boyd/Highmore/Sutter/Hawrluk as wonderul failed Benning additions whose combined goal total doesnt equate 1/3rd likely that of Tyler Toffoli whom he refused to resign and likely main reason why the habs are going to the post season instead of us.

 And another key reason why the pp percentage stinks and why in the absence of Elias we really needed the scoring expoits of Toffoli

 

    But at least we get to take a look at Gadovich as he may turn out to be better used than Mackewan when Green has fairly healthy lineup.    Just can not stand another season of Beagle and Anton Rouselle    and revolving waiver wire guys named above  if we are going to improve the bottom half of ineffective forward group next yr.

 

   Wish some deep pocket investor would come and buy Aqulini out,and clean house of Benning/Green

So, based on your understanding of hockey, the only players you need on a team are the ones that score goals? Ok, move on, nothing to see in this yet another stupid thread...

[Primal Optimist]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Could we paste this somewhere?  Change sometimes, just for the sake of change isn't a bad thing.   Team did it with Nonis.   I do feel that JB has earned the right to see the team through, but only because he passed on the 80 million in contracts he avoided last off-season, and because his crew has drafted well and only because he's heavily involved in that process (a hands on drafter).   That said if Lou was available i'd say come on down and wrap this up in a bow.   It really depends on who they'd get to do it.   Burke...well i know what he'd do - but he's also no longer an option.   And if he was expect the core to be blown apart at the seems. 

 

At this point, more then anything, it's time to take a deep breath.    JB isn't a bad GM i know that.   Has a chance to become another good one really.   Also could fall flat and never get another job like MG (highly doubt that).   His peers respect him.   Dialogue is always open.   And is a very hard worker by all accounts.  I'm ok with either acquiring a huge name to come in and tidy things up, or the status quo.   What if don't what is done Chakya-Dubas type getting hired.    No thanks.    

 

2 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

agree with all of that.

me too, hehe. What I think I want to add though is with JB around next season we will be plus another great player in PODz plus a likely early draft pick this summer and our core is still only just entering their window, likely we will be done with LE's contract as it is much easier to move or buyout the final year than multiples, and there are a lot of floor teams who may want that contract to make the cap credentials work, or LE retires, which I heard a rumour of two months ago.

 

All in all, "getting there" was JB's job and I think after the covid era is gone, hopefully for next season, we will have arrived. Obviously still with some tweaking, but we got playoffs unexpectedly last year, and this year was up in the air until the team got sick, literally, now its an extreme longshot, but next post season, I would think the boys are in the mix and the year after that we are out of cap hell and have a strong, talented, young club core to hit the battlefield with

 

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, Fred65 said:

 

Every decission made by management is a reflection of the summer of 2018, Beagle Rousell, Beartschi and lest we forget Tim Schaller ( $11.3 million ) The Summer of 2018 it all went down hill.  By the way they resigned Gudbranson for $4 mill in 2018 as well .... man what a year to forget. Don't look at this as a current crisis this stated in 2014 when JB stated 

 

For those that buy tickets that is a lot of wasted money spent since that moment in history. And as Kevin Bieska stated 5 years should be enough to rebuild

 

OTT just missed four in a row like we did.   Let's see if they make it next year. 

[Fred65]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

OTT just missed four in a row like we did.   Let's see if they make it next year. 

Benning has taken the Canuck, since he took over as GM, twice in 7 years. The first (Immediately after he took over )was with the previous administration roster the second was a Covid season when had the season continued chances are they would have missed. I see no reason to beat our chest about that accomplishment. Senators have the same record. Their current GM was appointed in 2016 and I would suggest is a candidate for being replaced. The Boston Bruins (our opponent in 2011 ) missed the play-off twice since 2014, that's not a bad record however they fired the manager (2015) Chiareli  and of course Benning came here the year prior. For Boston  that was simply not good enough. We should aspire to a similar record, rather than roll out excuses season after season, now we're told it'll be another two years. Do we wish for success or just talk about it ..... well next year .... well we have some good prospects.

 

Why do we set the bar so low. We should expect success every season not we're 7 years in and it'll be a further 2 years. We yearn failure

Edited May 4, 2021 by Fred65

[canuck73_3]

1 hour ago, Fred65 said:

Benning has taken the Canuck, since he took over as GM, twice in 7 years. The first (Immediately after he took over )was with the previous administration roster the second was a Covid season when had the season continued chances are they would have missed. I see no reason to beat our chest about that accomplishment. Senators have the same record. Their current GM was appointed in 2016 and I would suggest is a candidate for being replaced. The Boston Bruins (our opponent in 2011 ) missed the play-off twice since 2014, that's not a bad record however they fired the manager (2015) Chiareli  and of course Benning came here the year prior. For Boston  that was simply not good enough. We should aspire to a similar record, rather than roll out excuses season after season, now we're told it'll be another two years. Do we wish for success or just talk about it ..... well next year .... well we have some good prospects.

 

Why do we set the bar so low. We should expect success every season not we're 7 years in and it'll be a further 2 years. We yearn failure

Rebuild didn’t actually start until the Sedins retired, so the rebuild hasn’t exceeded 5 years. The Re-tool with the Sedins was hit and miss 1 playoff appearance in 4 years. And 1 playoff appearance since the rebuild.

 

You can nitpick all you want about when the rebuild should have started but the Sedins earned the right to decide to retire Canucks and no full rebuild was going to take place with them still playing. No different than the Red Wings riding out the final years of the Lidstrom/Datsyuk/Zetterberg era 

[runtzguy]

3 hours ago, canuck73_3 said:

Rebuild didn’t actually start until the Sedins retired, so the rebuild hasn’t exceeded 5 years. The Re-tool with the Sedins was hit and miss 1 playoff appearance in 4 years. And 1 playoff appearance since the rebuild.

 

You can nitpick all you want about when the rebuild should have started but the Sedins earned the right to decide to retire Canucks and no full rebuild was going to take place with them still playing. No different than the Red Wings riding out the final years of the Lidstrom/Datsyuk/Zetterberg era 

So what you are saying is that as long as Benning or any management doesn't come out and explicitly say that they are in a rebuild, retool or going for the run for the playoffs. Then we cannot assume we are moving to another phase of the team? If so, then where are we? Cause Benning never mentioned rebuild. So we must be either in retool or playoff run mode. But last time I checked, we are not even close to making the playoffs. So we must be in a retool. But Benning told us in 2014 that we will be retooling. So I am assuming we are year 7 of our retool. So do we need another 7 years to make this retool transition over to a playoff run? Or will we need to transition to a rebuild before that?

LOL

[canuck73_3]

2 hours ago, runtzguy said:

So what you are saying is that as long as Benning or any management doesn't come out and explicitly say that they are in a rebuild, retool or going for the run for the playoffs. Then we cannot assume we are moving to another phase of the team? If so, then where are we? Cause Benning never mentioned rebuild. So we must be either in retool or playoff run mode. But last time I checked, we are not even close to making the playoffs. So we must be in a retool. But Benning told us in 2014 that we will be retooling. So I am assuming we are year 7 of our retool. So do we need another 7 years to make this retool transition over to a playoff run? Or will we need to transition to a rebuild before that?

LOL

Look at the moves made then vs now, not that hard to figure out which was the re-tool and which was the rebuild. LOL 

[canuck73_3]

@runtzguy I really don’t know why the plan is so hard for some here to grasp. The team was never going to go full tank with the Sedins nor did Gillis leave us the chips to go full rebuild to begin with to many full NTC and NMC to go all in even if they wanted too. 
 

Eriksson showed great chemistry with the Sedins on the international level so on paper it was a decent looking signing. At the time I thought it was 2/3 years too long. Didn't think he’d be awful all 6 years here.

 

The Sedins did not want to play elsewhere so we went with the retool and remain competitive strategy, because of this Bo has 2 playoff runs under his belt. The team has also not gone through the Buffalo and Edmonton hopeless decade of suckage as well. 
 

We have enjoyed some of the best drafting in franchise history and that is without hindering player development and relying on lotto wins.

 

And as I stated there was 4 years of retooling and 3 of rebuilding. I never said there was no rebuild just zero chance of one during the Sedin years and they earned that respect.  

[wai_lai416]

1 hour ago, canuck73_3 said:

Look at the moves made then vs now, not that hard to figure out which was the re-tool and which was the rebuild. LOL 

actually it's very hard to figure what is re tool and what is rebuild and what phase are we in now? lol i mean we have never had more than 1st rounder ever other than the kesler trade.. we have had mutliple years with 0 2nd round picks.. and we didn't even have our 1st or 2nd rounder last year plus we gave up on a bunch of prospects.. so were we ever in a rebuild phase? lol i mean we had less draft picks then what we suppose to have and we have less prospect than we drafted

[IBatch]

18 hours ago, lmm said:

when I look at the Canucks I see this type of thing happen repeatedly

the organisation seems to oscilate between "New Age" sleep doctors and early adoption of Euros (early 80s) and "I'll drive him to the airport" old school

and they always seem to get it backwards

Before the Gretzky thing was Neely and before that was Vaive and Derlego, (file under I for impatience) before that Mike Robitaille and Dunc Wilson (file under PM for poor medical) Other names Larionov, Bure, Bertuzzi, Burke, Rypien, Kassian, Sestito. Maybe add Mike Gillis and Pat Quinn to that list.

and we contracted both Covid and the Mumps.

Some have claimed that Benning was forced to pay too much for middling players because the team was low in the standings, I feel the Canucks are low on free agent lists because they have repeatedly make poor decisions.

The Devils and Islanders were once in the same boat, but both seem to have climbed out by hiring Lou Lamorillo.

If you believe as I do, that Quinn and Burke was the 2 best hockey men to work for the Canucks, you find that they were both fired by new ownership. So, instead of continuity the Canucks go for complete overhaul when ownership changes.

So, in closing, I suppose those who say, "be careful what you wish for" are onto something.

Until this team is acquired by solid ownership, who acquire a solid President, who hires a solid GM, who are all autonomous in their jobs, this team will continue to stumbble along just as it has since Tom Scanlen went to jail in 1972 

 

The team and its fans have been through a lot.   Even with 21 teams in the 80's, we struggled to make the playoffs.   Back then, how many teams didn't make it again  lol?   5.  Less the 25%.   Now it's 50%.    Tough.   As fans we've suffered a lot.   Otto DID kick it in.   That was somewhat like our bubble run chance for Linden and the old crew.   Maki, Rypien, Bourdon.    Two game sevens, two riots.   Bertuzzi/Moore, Moore/Naslund - that was our best chance and we were considered a contender.   Best line in hockey for three years, a very well balanced D core... Lidstroms goal lol.    Thomas, why that year?   It's like the hockey gods punished us from the start ... for changing our uniforms har har.   Oh yeah Orca Bay Getzky failure and Messier, worst uniforms in hockey created, Keenan blah blah.    Only Buffalo fans match up .... THN picked the Canucks as the toughest team to follow as a fan for suffering index's...a long list. 

 

32 teams.  Nine consecutive years of trash drafting by Nonis and MG ... here you go JB, a country club of clauses and all of Horvat and Hutton to work with.   Here are the keys.   No choice but to stick it out with the Sedins etc.    Got us in once at 7th overall.   Then the nose dive.    Post Sedin 50/50 playoffs.   Missed four years in a row, one of which would have been playoffs in the 80's (Podz draft).   Argh.   Sometimes i forget other fans probably lost patience awhile ago.    There is certainly lots of reasons to be sad or upset over this team.   Been more lows then highs ... but those highs for sure make it worth the wait. 

[IBatch]

10 hours ago, canuck73_3 said:

Rebuild didn’t actually start until the Sedins retired, so the rebuild hasn’t exceeded 5 years. The Re-tool with the Sedins was hit and miss 1 playoff appearance in 4 years. And 1 playoff appearance since the rebuild.

 

You can nitpick all you want about when the rebuild should have started but the Sedins earned the right to decide to retire Canucks and no full rebuild was going to take place with them still playing. No different than the Red Wings riding out the final years of the Lidstrom/Datsyuk/Zetterberg era 

Exactly.   And the best comp we have, practically identical really.    Their Horvat is Larkin.   Holland was the cream of the GM crop for two decades.   Couldn't make it three in a row, paying the piper just like us.   And they at least had Bertuzzi and Mantha picks (MG gave us Hutton and Horvat...really this team couldn't draft worth sh!t until JB - have to go all the way back to ONE of Nonis drafts to find a good one, Edler etc.   That's a long time.    To me the rebuild became official when we traded Burrows and Hansen, and KB.   Four years is 50-100% faster then normal these days for any type of rebuild.   For a top team with zero recycling .... 10 years is probably a fair target.   EDM just made the playoffs for the second time since 2006.   Wow.  CAR missed 9 in a row.    NYR just did what we did in the Keenan era, their Sedins (acquired one from Linden trade) are Kakko and Laffreniere.   Nice to have guys like JT Miller to trade right?   Missed this year but let's not kid ourselves they are going for it like they've always done.   No patience in that market place for a tear down and rebuild like OTT is doing. 

 

OTT just missed too.   I actually have some prospect envy now.   That team is going to be stacked.    Again nice to have assets to get those picks.   We could do a Duchene deal with Miller i suppose ... but we also need him at least for now.    

 

Based on context, the Canucks were in for a very long haul, like other good teams that grow stale and claused up ... the piper has to be paid.   Figured realistically it would be parts of this core when they are in their late 20's and early 30's and parts of the next one, that would give us a chance at a cup again.   JB haters will freak out but history has repeated itself twice already, and it takes longer each time because we are competing against 31 and not 20 or 28 anymore.  So that's another 7-8 years.   

 

JB has moved quicker then the average, not slower.   Anyone who feels differently id suggest looking around the league more often and pay a little more attention.   The team JB took over, was a lot like an expansion team prospect wise.  Worse actually.    ATL got Healtley and Kovi.  And Stefan lol.   CLB... well how long did it take them to become relevant?   CLB barely is now.   ATL never was in ATL.   So take your 7 years and add 7-8 and that's a realistic view of when this teams going to make it to the final again.   It's also what the math says.  On average each team will make the final six times and win three cups in 100 years now. 

 

If this makes you a little sick to your stomach it should.   Send your complaints to Bettman  and the NHL.  Talents diluted, it really is.  At least under the cap every team has a shot which is a very nice carrot.   

 

Back to JB.   He's done a better job then average, proven he's at least an above average  rebuilder.   Don't care what anyone says i know he's a good drafter, because each year he's been here our pool improved above where it should have based on where he drafted.   ADP over each four year period is better then average.   Drafting around 8-10 but what he's produced is 2-4 depending on the year.   So like drafting 2-4 overall make sense?    That said it's still way too early to really know.    

 

Feel this core actually has a chance to contend if the cards fall into the right place.   Covid screwed him with the cap going flat, but only really screwed him the first two years of it.    The highest players get around 6, and both EP and QHs won't cost us the bank (yet at least).   Imagine if we signed them and THEN covid happened.   Lucky.

 

JB team has an excellent chance in their division to get the points to make the show during this teams early window.  That experience will be vital to when these guys are in their prime window.   Look at how many times it took WSH.  

 

St. Louis too.   PIT, ST. Louis,  Boston, WSH were the best teams the past decade (NHL.com did an article on this and showed why).   All went through a cycle age wise to get them there. 

 

Sorry for the long read.   Point again is that I believe that JB has sped the process up, and also given me at least, hope that this core can actually contend.  Big holes yet, we need quite a few things, one of them some nasty and size.  Podz should help in that regard ..6'4" 210lbs ... wonder if he looks like Linden out there lol.    We have very good odds of a rebound next season, and a long run of playoff games after that.    More reps better the chances.   I don't like the odds (3 cups a century), but do think JB has added a multiplier in our favour with his drafting and the fact his RFA deals have all been fair in context. 

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

actually it's very hard to figure what is re tool and what is rebuild and what phase are we in now? lol i mean we have never had more than 1st rounder ever other than the kesler trade.. we have had mutliple years with 0 2nd round picks.. and we didn't even have our 1st or 2nd rounder last year plus we gave up on a bunch of prospects.. so were we ever in a rebuild phase? lol i mean we had less draft picks then what we suppose to have and we have less prospect than we drafted

Very simple.  The line in the sand, when we shifted from re-tool to rebuild, was when we trade Hansen and Burrows.   Bieksa too (a 2nd).   Fact is JB spent assets to re-tool following his and Lindens mandate to give the Sedins another shot.   We were only two years removed from a presidents trophy.   Brought in Miller and the second best UFA forward Vrbata (and tried to get Iginla first), and we finished 7th overall. 

 

The team committed to honour the Sedins legacy.   The next year we whiffed.   Then we traded Burrows when he waived his NTC to OTT in 2017.   Thats the line in the sand.   

 

Two years later he capped things off with the Miller trade, UFA Myers signing and TT trade.   We made the playoffs and did some damage.   

 

Things aren't as bleak as they seem right now.   It's normal for a young team to hit and miss at the start of their cycle.   Covid more likely build character and bring the group closer together.   And the pick we get now, will keep the rookies coming.   Next year Podz plus someone else i'm sure (THN says 4 of our top five guys will be playing in the league next season, possibly one in Seattle for sure).   The following year this years pick plus someone else.  

 

JB knows only so many core spots are available.   And actually given his mandate with the Sedins, did better then I expected. 

Edited May 4, 2021 by IBatch

[DSVII]

23 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

I guess I'm more tired of the pattern than any individual deal per se. I like Pearson, just not for 3 years. Love Beagle and Rous, just not for 3 or 4 years. 

 

I know the Tryamkin thing was just us likely being played by Nik and his agent but I still don[t know why they let that relationship get so bad in the 1st place.

 

Anyway, like I said I don't have the pitchforks out and I won't be supporting the Benning haters, just happy to see a change if there's a GM upgrade out there somewhere. 

 

 

20 hours ago, lmm said:

Some have claimed that Benning was forced to pay too much for middling players because the team was low in the standings, I feel the Canucks are low on free agent lists because they have repeatedly make poor decisions.

The Devils and Islanders were once in the same boat, but both seem to have climbed out by hiring Lou Lamorillo.

If you believe as I do, that Quinn and Burke was the 2 best hockey men to work for the Canucks, you find that they were both fired by new ownership. So, instead of continuity the Canucks go for complete overhaul when ownership changes.

So, in closing, I suppose those who say, "be careful what you wish for" are onto something.

Until this team is acquired by solid ownership, who acquire a solid President, who hires a solid GM, who are all autonomous in their jobs, this team will continue to stumbble along just as it has since Tom Scanlen went to jail in 1972 

 

Agree on these points. 

 

The main reason many have lost faith in JB, he's not shown no signs even as recent as last offseason that he is shifting from this pattern of decisions in regards to his asset management, valuation and timing of his trades and pro-scouting. They are undercutting his greatest strengths at the draft.

 

Some may call that dead horses, but I'll call it consistency the last seven years, whether we were retooling or rebuilding. I haven't seen an argument for that addresses this shortcoming aside from dismissing it, name calling and pretending it isn't hindering this team. Thought he had taken a step forward from 2017-18 but he's always swung back.

 

He's basically a metronome. And that's probably why he's so polarizing haha. 

 

But yes, this also starts at the top, ownership, and that's even harder to find that GMs.