Finally dawned on me why we let Gaudette go for so little in return

[RWMc1]

Orca Bay CEO Stan McCammon] got on the phone to Quinn (Vancouver’s president and GM) and said, ‘We want this done tonight.’ “

 

 

If the current owner meddles, it would be from a fan perspective. Things that most fans would want. I thought starting Gaudette and MacEwen against Minnie seemed like one of those decisions that a fan would want.

 

It sounds like the owner lost a lot of money due to Covid, If he wanted certain players traded, then that is his prerogative. Gaudette was arbitration eligible and didn't fit. He was never going to be a key to us winning a Cup. At least Highmore fits with what we need down the stretch with a crappy schedule.

[AlwaysACanuckFan]

5 hours ago, Filthy McNasty said:

I miss Dorsett, torres and maximum lapierre 

Got any more of them maximum Dorsetts?

Edited May 3, 2021 by AlwaysACanuckFan

[Ghostsof1915]

McCaw was the guy that hired Steven Bellringer to fire Pat Quinn, and had no replacement.

[combover]

41 minutes ago, spur1 said:

Benning is going nowhere soon. 

Just like the team he’s assembled. 
the other gms in the league will be  happy as will all our divisional rivals. 

maybe some more waiver wire picks bad trades and over paid ufas  that don’t play will fix it this time..... 

time for some more excuses. 
 

Edited May 3, 2021 by combover

[mll]

4 hours ago, Alienhuggyflow said:

Man these TT takes are getting absurd. 

Let's look at things rationally.

TT was traded for with the expectation the cap was going by 5-8 million so right there anything that happened after is kind of moot. But let's say we signed him, before this season he had one season with 30 goals, his average is around 23, this season is a complete one off and going forward we have younger better options for the top six.

As for all the bottom six signed or claimed they won't be back next season and have no impact on the teams structure going forward.

Rooster gets crapped on but odd how we seem to perform better with him in the lineup but hey that doesn't matter only cap space right?

Beagle is done but refer to the above.

Gaudette is a tweener who sucks at defense and regressed a lot this season but just like any one Benning moves he's the 2nd coming of Christ the minute he's moved according to Benning haters.

Next season when we have Nate and TT is back to what he is a lot of crow will be on the menu.

 

Those cap projections were not realistic and some GMs were already not buying the projections.  They got burned the year before where the cap increased less than projected.

 

The season before the cap was projected at 83M and only went up to 81.5M.  

 

The NHL projects with the full escalator but the NHLPA was unlikely to approve those numbers.  Players were looking to reduce escrow.  The cap was already artificially high.  Players are entitled to half of HRR (hockey related revenue).  

 

When the cap is higher than their share of HRR, they have to reimburse money to owners through escrow.  They were earning less than their contracts which has been a growing issue.  By limiting the cap increase they would be allowing HRR to catch up to the salary cap.

 

The player side told Custance that even the 84M was unlikely as they didn’t want to continue to be losing that much of their salaries.  Escrow was 14%.  The league projects with the full escalator at 5% but it’s a players’ decision and the past two seasons they’ve agreed to only slightly above 1%.

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by mll

[Dazzle]

19 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

He made Quinn and McCammon call Gretzky to sign around midnight and not wait until the morning. That call killed the Gretzky deal 

You and I agree on a lot. I just don't think that phone call was the reason for why the deal died. In my opinion, it was just used as an excuse by Gretzky to sign NYR. He can say he felt 'disrespected' all he wants, but he's not new to signing contracts. There's ALWAYS a pressure to sign a contract. Nobody just lets a deal sit because the player can think about joining another team.

As Ghost says, Gretzky is probably a liar. Hot take, but his reasoning for signing NYR is really flimsy.

 

 

 

 

[Bad_BOI_pete]

4 hours ago, kilgore said:

 

I'm about ready for this.  I'm passed JB.  The buck stops at Aquaman.

JB continues to squander this teams future with dumb decisions. But are they dumb, or has he just been trying to keep his job?

I fear that Canuck fans are screwed.  That the Benning / Aquilini  merry-go-round will never work, and in fact the are their own worst enemies.  Benning took the job, from Gillis.  Gillis wanted to start a rebuild in 2013. He saw the writing on the wall.  The owners were addicted to the the playoff money, and excitement and turfed Gillis and screened any new GM and made it clear they were NOT to rebuild, and not even utter the word. 

Maybe a more principled applicant would have turned down the position. But I can't judge too harshly.  The opportunity to manage an NHL team?  And also perhaps Benning was convinced, or convinced himself, that the owner was right, and that tinkering would be enough.  We don't know. 

That doesn't excuse Jim later though when he could have gotten more tough about a rebuild after two or three years in, if he had the balls.  But he may have thought he'd set the course, that the owner wanted, and was now sticking to it. Wanted to keep his job and just didn't want to rock the boat.  Not acceptable IMO.

 

On the owners side, he probably knows deep down that he's been a wery wery wery bad owner.  That he HAS meddled too much. He can read the criticisms. But now, he is too arrogant to admit he was wrong, and might just double down and extend Benning instead just to prove his point. Benning now is so far down the rabbit hole. He's been bought and sold. Its like a bad romance.  They should split up, but each one needs the other one to cover for them no matter how unhealthy it is for the team under them. 

 

I want your horror, I want your design
‘Cause you’re a criminal as long as you’re mine
I want your love
Love, love, love, I want your love, uh

.

.

doubt it,when was the last time you heard a billionaire apologize, even after 2008?

[Gollumpus]

7 hours ago, Harold27k said:

because Benning and Green let it out during the covid stoppage he was the 1st guy to be into covid quarantine. And maybe was the scapegoat as to majority of team getting sick? 

 Why else do you take Matthew Highmore in return who has zero goals in 30 games this yr?

But lets add this list Beagle/Rouselle/Vessy/Micalief/Boyd/Highmore/Sutter/Hawrluk as wonderul failed Benning additions whose combined goal total doesnt equate 1/3rd likely that of Tyler Toffoli whom he refused to resign and likely main reason why the habs are going to the post season instead of us.

 And another key reason why the pp percentage stinks and why in the absence of Elias we really needed the scoring expoits of Toffoli

 

    But at least we get to take a look at Gadovich as he may turn out to be better used than Mackewan when Green has fairly healthy lineup.    Just can not stand another season of Beagle and Anton Rouselle    and revolving waiver wire guys named above  if we are going to improve the bottom half of ineffective forward group next yr.

 

   Wish some deep pocket investor would come and buy Aqulini out,and clean house of Benning/Green

I haven't read the rest of this thread, so maybe my point has already been mentioned: ever stop to think that the GMs of the other teams didn't think as highly of Gaudette as a number of posters around here? 

 

                                              regards,  G.

[King Heffy]

10 minutes ago, Gollumpus said:

I haven't read the rest of this thread, so maybe my point has already been mentioned: ever stop to think that the GMs of the other teams didn't think as highly of Gaudette as a number of posters around here? 

 

                                              regards,  G.

This.  He's about one year away from being waiver fodder at the moment.

[RU SERIOUS]

6 hours ago, *Buzzsaw* said:

Would not be surprised if it turns out it was a Covid grudge that got Gaudette traded... that would be typical of this organization.

Well the rumor-mill is that it was Gaudette's wife that went up to Whistler skiing with ??? and then the whole team got infected thru him after eating at one of the many contaminated restaurants up in Whistler.  The truth will come in time as to how complicit she was in ruining the season for the team.

[IBatch]

9 hours ago, Dazzle said:

You actually think Gretzky had the intention of signing with Vancouver?
 

I don't think so. Here's why:

 

Either Gretzky verbally agreed that he'd sign in the morning and/or He would sleep on it.

 

Either way, there wasn't a finalized agreement, hence Canuck OWNERSHIP (Not Quinn) wanted Gretzky to sign the contract the night before.

 

If Gretzky ACTUALLY had the intention of signing with the Canucks, he would've done so.  Part of the negotiation process is to push people to commit on paper. Verbal contracts don't get legal recourse. As long as nothing is signed, the client has every right to "change his mind". Leaving Gretzky to 'think about it' is risking the chance that he'll change his mind.

 

So Quinn doesn't deserve any flack for this. I would say Gretzky was not actually interested in joining the Canucks. He more likely used the Canucks as leverage against the NYR. New York will panic and throw him a better offer. Why else did he sign with NYR so quickly?

 

The talk about Gretzky being "pressured" and being disrespected for being pressured is plain nonsense.

 

Vancouver was a bad team then. Unless they overpaid more than everyone else, New York was likely a more attractive market. That's just how things work when your team is garbage; you have to pay people to come.

.   Quin was dealing with a meddling owner Stan McAmmon, Orca Bay CEO, the team, in fact, was very good back then come playoff time especially.   This was before Messier remember.   Ronning was moved out to make room for Gretzky, it was McAmmon who was handling the deal - not Quin - yes under his umbrella but it wasn't his idea to pressure Wayne Gretzky, wake him up in the middle of the night and provide an ultimatum to sign now or the deals off.   Gretzky thought he was going to be a Canuck, but refused to call his wife at 1:00 am to go over it with her before making a decision said as much, and that he hoped the deal would still be on the table etc in the morning, went to be and woke up to find out that Stan had already sent faxes out to the league that they wouldn't be pursuing Gretzky - a bad look for sure.   

 

In his book Wayne was looking forward to playing with Gelinas, Bure, Linden, Mogilny etc.   They were loading up.  Their core was entering their prime.   Had that amazing run two years earlier and looked poised to be a powerhouse for many years to come.   This ones not on Quin.   

 

NYR wasn't  even in his radar, they saw the fax and contacted him the same day.      

 

Edit:  In a way this was the organizations biggest failure as it opened the door to you know who coming shortly after....

Edited May 3, 2021 by IBatch

[JM_]

12 hours ago, Coconuts said:

Agreed, there's a lot to like about bringing in a guy with a proven track record. The Pearson deal doesn't bother me as I figure he'll be decent value, but losing Tram kind of sucks. Gaudette doesn't bother me either, it didn't appear he was going to crack our top six and he's a middling bottom six guy. 

 

The Tryamkin thing, that's not all on JB and shouldn't be presented as such. If Tram was asking for unrealistic term and dollars for a guy who's proven very little at the NHL level perhaps we were better washing our hands of him. It's a lose/lose, overpay him and have him fail to live up to expectations or lose him and have fans gripe over "what if's". It's also worth questioning just how much interest Tram actually had in returning to the NHL. But yeah, JB's historical management of cap space does impact things. 

 

I anticipate most movement will come from within going forward, haven't they said as much? But I guess we'll see? 

I guess I'm more tired of the pattern than any individual deal per se. I like Pearson, just not for 3 years. Love Beagle and Rous, just not for 3 or 4 years. 

 

I know the Tryamkin thing was just us likely being played by Nik and his agent but I still don[t know why they let that relationship get so bad in the 1st place.

 

Anyway, like I said I don't have the pitchforks out and I won't be supporting the Benning haters, just happy to see a change if there's a GM upgrade out there somewhere. 

 

[Coconuts]

11 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

I guess I'm more tired of the pattern than any individual deal per se. I like Pearson, just not for 3 years. Love Beagle and Rous, just not for 3 or 4 years. 

 

I know the Tryamkin thing was just us likely being played by Nik and his agent but I still don[t know why they let that relationship get so bad in the 1st place.

 

Anyway, like I said I don't have the pitchforks out and I won't be supporting the Benning haters, just happy to see a change if there's a GM upgrade out there somewhere. 

 

Yeah, I get it. You just want things to trend upwards. 

 

Yeah, I figure we got played by Tram. As much as I'd like to have him here, he's established over there. Russia is home, he doesn't have to speak English, his family is there. For some guys playing in the NHL isn't the big dream, some guys are content being a big fish in a smaller pond. He gets paid well to play at home, and if he wants to try the NHL, he'll be able to pick which team he plays for next time round. Wouldn't be surprised to see him go to Tampa or something, Nucks fans would love that I'm sure. Ideally we'd have made things work last season, but again.. it comes down to what he was asking for and we have no clue.

 

 

[JM_]

4 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Yeah, I get it. You just want things to trend upwards. 

 

 

yup thats pretty much it. Just think we need a GM better skilled on the pro-side now to complete the rebuild to being competitive. 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Jimmy McGill

[lmm]

15 hours ago, diesel_3 said:

Now we have minimum lapierre AKA Roussel.

the thing is Lappierre had his last productive (reletively productive) season at 28 YO

Roussell matched that last year at 30

these type of players do not last into their 30s

[Gawdzukes]

15 hours ago, King Heffy said:

Look at what happens in Ottawa when the owner doesn't care whether or not the team is competitive.

Holy crap, this thread is filled with posters who know nothing about hockey. Not you but the usuals who just show up to bash management, with their dumb takes.

[Primal Optimist]

17 hours ago, Harold27k said:

because Benning and Green let it out during the covid stoppage he was the 1st guy to be into covid quarantine. And maybe was the scapegoat as to majority of team getting sick? 

 Why else do you take Matthew Highmore in return who has zero goals in 30 games this yr?

But lets add this list Beagle/Rouselle/Vessy/Micalief/Boyd/Highmore/Sutter/Hawrluk as wonderul failed Benning additions whose combined goal total doesnt equate 1/3rd likely that of Tyler Toffoli whom he refused to resign and likely main reason why the habs are going to the post season instead of us.

 And another key reason why the pp percentage stinks and why in the absence of Elias we really needed the scoring expoits of Toffoli

 

    But at least we get to take a look at Gadovich as he may turn out to be better used than Mackewan when Green has fairly healthy lineup.    Just can not stand another season of Beagle and Anton Rouselle    and revolving waiver wire guys named above  if we are going to improve the bottom half of ineffective forward group next yr.

 

   Wish some deep pocket investor would come and buy Aqulini out,and clean house of Benning/Green

we get it: you wish we had the cap space to re-sign Tyler "east coast" Toffoli, it would have been more than the amount Montreal signed him for, he is a gun for hire, not a stock share. We didn't have that cap space so we couldn't sign him. How to explain this so the folks who don't get it can get it. We were under the crunch for cap space and COULD NOT, rather than would not, sign the mercenary sniper. 

[Gawdzukes]

15 hours ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Imo, just like AG the PR department will be trading JV as well...

They were both not good hockey players. On their way out regardless.

[lmm]

4 hours ago, IBatch said:

.   Quin was dealing with a meddling owner Stan McAmmon, Orca Bay CEO, the team, in fact, was very good back then come playoff time especially.   This was before Messier remember.   Ronning was moved out to make room for Gretzky, it was McAmmon who was handling the deal - not Quin - yes under his umbrella but it wasn't his idea to pressure Wayne Gretzky, wake him up in the middle of the night and provide an ultimatum to sign now or the deals off.   Gretzky thought he was going to be a Canuck, but refused to call his wife at 1:00 am to go over it with her before making a decision said as much, and that he hoped the deal would still be on the table etc in the morning, went to be and woke up to find out that Stan had already sent faxes out to the league that they wouldn't be pursuing Gretzky - a bad look for sure.   

 

In his book Wayne was looking forward to playing with Gelinas, Bure, Linden, Mogilny etc.   They were loading up.  Their core was entering their prime.   Had that amazing run two years earlier and looked poised to be a powerhouse for many years to come.   This ones not on Quin.   

 

NYR wasn't  even in his radar, they saw the fax and contacted him the same day.      

 

Edit:  In a way this was the organizations biggest failure as it opened the door to you know who coming shortly after....

when I look at the Canucks I see this type of thing happen repeatedly

the organisation seems to oscilate between "New Age" sleep doctors and early adoption of Euros (early 80s) and "I'll drive him to the airport" old school

and they always seem to get it backwards

Before the Gretzky thing was Neely and before that was Vaive and Derlego, (file under I for impatience) before that Mike Robitaille and Dunc Wilson (file under PM for poor medical) Other names Larionov, Bure, Bertuzzi, Burke, Rypien, Kassian, Sestito. Maybe add Mike Gillis and Pat Quinn to that list.

and we contracted both Covid and the Mumps.

Some have claimed that Benning was forced to pay too much for middling players because the team was low in the standings, I feel the Canucks are low on free agent lists because they have repeatedly make poor decisions.

The Devils and Islanders were once in the same boat, but both seem to have climbed out by hiring Lou Lamorillo.

If you believe as I do, that Quinn and Burke was the 2 best hockey men to work for the Canucks, you find that they were both fired by new ownership. So, instead of continuity the Canucks go for complete overhaul when ownership changes.

So, in closing, I suppose those who say, "be careful what you wish for" are onto something.

Until this team is acquired by solid ownership, who acquire a solid President, who hires a solid GM, who are all autonomous in their jobs, this team will continue to stumbble along just as it has since Tom Scanlen went to jail in 1972 

 

[alt kilgore]

5 minutes ago, Primal Optimist said:

we get it: you wish we had the cap space to re-sign Tyler "east coast" Toffoli, it would have been more than the amount Montreal signed him for, he is a gun for hire, not a stock share. We didn't have that cap space so we couldn't sign him. How to explain this so the folks who don't get it can get it. We were under the crunch for cap space and COULD NOT, rather than would not, sign the mercenary sniper. 

"We didn't have the cap space".  and "We ran out of time".  we manage "day to day".  These are not excuses that fan's want to hear.  And rightfully so.

COULD NOT?  sorry, not good enough. Who's fault is it that we had no wiggle room in the first place? 

 

I don't believe a more creative, more aware, more prepared GM would not have found a way. It was more about misplaced priorities and lofty assumptions about other players waiting around.  Even with the flat cap a more creative GM COULD have figured out a way. That's what he gets paid the big bucks for.  He has waaaaaay more knowledge than we do, or should, on his options and who may be available.  Why even have a GM if any of us could do the same job?

 

https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/canucks-hockey/jim-benning-tried-to-put-out-the-tyler-toffoli-fire-but-just-made-everything-worse-3353610

 

 

How could the Canucks have created the space to sign Toffoli?

A buyout of Brandon Sutter would have helped. Signing a cheaper goaltender than the $4.3 million-per-year Braden Holtby was an option. The Canucks could have also gotten creative in the trade market to try to clear a little room.

In his article, Kuzma suggests that trying to find a trade partner for Jake Virtanen wasn’t a guarantee, but there was a much simpler way to avoid having Virtanen’s $2.55 million contract on the books: let him walk. The Canucks didn’t need to re-sign Virtanen at all.

Ultimately, Benning’s defence of his inability to re-sign Toffoli simply sounds like an admission that his past mistakes caught up to him and prevented him from improving the Canucks roster.

 

 

"We ran out of time"

 

Here’s why this quote is so stunning: the Canucks had ample time to get a deal done with Toffoli.

The Canucks traded for Toffoli on February 17, 2020. He signed with the Montreal Canadiens on October 12, 2020. That’s nearly eight full months where the Canucks had exclusive negotiating rights for Toffoli and could have signed him to a new contract.

 

Of course, the situation changed a month into Toffoli’s time in Vancouver when the season was suspended due to the COVID-19 pandemic. That happened on March 12, so that still gave the Canucks seven months to re-sign Toffoli and they suddenly had a lot of free time to work on it.

You could argue that the NHL’s decision to have a flat salary cap for the 2020-21 season changed the situation significantly for the Canucks. Okay. Though it was rumoured for a while, the flat cap was officially announced on July 10. That gave Benning a full three months to grapple with the new reality and come up with a plan to sign the players he needed to sign.

Even if you further contract the timeline and suggest that contract negotiations could wait until the Canucks were out of the playoffs, which happened on September 4, that’s still over a month where the Canucks had exclusive negotiating rights with Toffoli and could have signed him to a new contract.

Keep in mind, Toffoli didn’t even sign on the first day of free agency, which opened October 9. He waited until the fourth day of free agency to sign, yet somehow that wasn’t enough time for Benning to get a deal done.

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