Hogtown-Implosion Should Assist JB

[Patel Bure]

17 minutes ago, lmm said:

thats funny, you answered your own question, with a question

I realize that Linden is “the golden boy” in Vancouver (I love him as well), but we can’t automatically assume that he’s being objective with his comments.   
 

Aqua is a successful business man and yet he chose to keep Benning and Weisbrod over Linden and Brackett.  Could there be a legitimate reason to this or are we just going to go with “the narrative” that Aqua loves to surround himself with sychophants and “yes men?”

 

@wallstreetamigo

Edited June 2, 2021 by Patel Bure

[204CanucksFan]

21 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

My comparisons for any Canucks GM, whether its drafting or any other aspect of their job, is with the top GM's, not the bottom ones.

 

Comparing Benning to Gillis, etc is a useless comparison. In drafting Benning clobbers him. But in many other aspects, Gillis clobbers Benning. In some, both are pretty bad.

 

Benning/Gillis hybrid would be a good GM overall imo.

 

In what ways does Gillis clobber Benning? Im not huge fan of Benning, he has done well steadily rebuilding the prospect pool but has made many mistakes in terms of UFA signings and trades but he has still had more success on building a sustainable franchise than Gillis ever had. I'm of the vastly unpopular opinion that Gillis is one of the worst GMs in this franchise's history, sure the on ice results were great when he was GM but he had very, very little to do with that. He went all in to get us a Stanley Cup, which we missed, without ever restocking the cupboards. In fact many of the picks he traded away other teams used to draft very good NHL players that would be great to have today including, but limited to the 2012 draft in which both Frederik Anderson and Josh Anderson were both drafted by picks Gillis traded away.

 

The only good moves Gillis ever made were trading for Ehrhoff, signing Hamhuis and Samuelsson as UFAs and trading Schneider for the pick that got us Horvat. He didn't draft or bring in any of the core players for the 2011 cup run, the closest thing he did was resign some of them and ride the coattails of the people that brought them in, Burke and Nonis. 

 

He was by far the worst drafter in the NHL of the new millennium. Since 2000 only 5 times have a team's draft produced 0 NHL games played and 0 points. 2 of those 5 times belong to Vancouver and both of those drafts were with Gillis as GM. 

[lmm]

8 minutes ago, erkayloomeh said:

Like I said who would you have signed instead.  ? 

We don't have the privilege of knowing what the competition for those players was.  But term is pretty important to an aging Ufa so I don't get the criticism.   Sure sign one of them instead of three sure but then you still need to fill out your roster. 

Sign worse players for less money and less term sure....then instead of being bad we could have been reeeeeeeal bad. How good would that have been for guys like Bo?

And we've had some surprises with Pete and Hughes. 

Benning is no superstar gm but hes no slouch either. 

Our progression is slower than we like, but we are slowly building a good team.

Vanek

Kempney

Brodziak

Ryan

Hickey

Nash

Plekanec

Calvert

Grabner

Hickey and Kempney got 4 years and Grabner got $3.35 everyone else got less

[wallstreetamigo]

8 minutes ago, erkayloomeh said:

Like I said who would you have signed instead.  ? 

We don't have the privilege of knowing what the competition for those players was.  But term is pretty important to an aging Ufa so I don't get the criticism.   Sure sign one of them instead of three sure but then you still need to fill out your roster. 

Sign worse players for less money and less term sure....then instead of being bad we could have been reeeeeeeal bad. How good would that have been for guys like Bo?

And we've had some surprises with Pete and Hughes. 

Benning is no superstar gm but hes no slouch either. 

Our progression is slower than we like, but we are slowly building a good team.

Every offseason there are bottom 6 veteran players available to sign without giving them premium dollar, medium term contracts with a ntc. Take your pick really.

 

The difference is we were REAAAAAALLLLLLYYY bad with those players. We could not have been much worse with less expensive replacements. We might have even been better of those extra dollars were used to get a skill player or two.

[erkayloomeh]

1 minute ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Every offseason there are bottom 6 veteran players available to sign without giving them premium dollar, medium term contracts with a ntc. Take your pick really.

 

The difference is we were REAAAAAALLLLLLYYY bad with those players. We could not have been much worse with less expensive replacements. We might have even been better of those extra dollars were used to get a skill player or two.

We will see.  But I'm willing to bet jb is done with those types of signings now that he has players developing.  

No matter what, anyone he would have signed would have been stop gap until our young (well drafted) players developed. 

I find it hard to be critical when a gm has taken over a team with lousy prospects and an aging core.

But maybe that's just me. 

[kanucks25]

Hilarious how the apologists complain that every thread turns into a "bash Benning" thread yet nobody says anything about these threads that the same 3 people keep spamming.

 

This dude alone has like 3 on the 1st page, all of which essentially say this:

 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by kanucks25

[lmm]

3 minutes ago, 204CanucksFan said:

In what ways does Gillis clobber Benning? Im not huge fan of Benning, he has done well steadily rebuilding the prospect pool but has made many mistakes in terms of UFA signings and trades but he has still had more success on building a sustainable franchise than Gillis ever had. I'm of the vastly unpopular opinion that Gillis is one of the worst GMs in this franchise's history, sure the on ice results were great when he was GM but he had very, very little to do with that. He went all in to get us a Stanley Cup, which we missed, without ever restocking the cupboards. In fact many of the picks he traded away other teams used to draft very good NHL players that would be great to have today including, but limited to the 2012 draft in which both Frederik Anderson and Josh Anderson were both drafted by picks Gillis traded away.

 

The only good moves Gillis ever made were trading for Ehrhoff, signing Hamhuis and Samuelsson as UFAs and trading Schneider for the pick that got us Horvat. He didn't draft or bring in any of the core players for the 2011 cup run, the closest thing he did was resign some of them and ride the coattails of the people that brought them in, Burke and Nonis. 

 

He was by far the worst drafter in the NHL of the new millennium. Since 2000 only 5 times have a team's draft produced 0 NHL games played and 0 points. 2 of those 5 times belong to Vancouver and both of those drafts were with Gillis as GM. 

Manny

Raffi

Higgy

Lappy

Glass

Hamhius

Tambellini

Ballard

Alberts 

Rome

Bulduc

Tanev

Oreskovich

[wallstreetamigo]

4 minutes ago, 204CanucksFan said:

In what ways does Gillis clobber Benning? Im not huge fan of Benning, he has done well steadily rebuilding the prospect pool but has made many mistakes in terms of UFA signings and trades but he has still had more success on building a sustainable franchise than Gillis ever had. I'm of the vastly unpopular opinion that Gillis is one of the worst GMs in this franchise's history, sure the on ice results were great when he was GM but he had very, very little to do with that. He went all in to get us a Stanley Cup, which we missed, without ever restocking the cupboards. In fact many of the picks he traded away other teams used to draft very good NHL players that would be great to have today including, but limited to the 2012 draft in which both Frederik Anderson and Josh Anderson were both drafted by picks Gillis traded away.

 

The only good moves Gillis ever made were trading for Ehrhoff, signing Hamhuis and Samuelsson as UFAs and trading Schneider for the pick that got us Horvat. He didn't draft or bring in any of the core players for the 2011 cup run, the closest thing he did was resign some of them and ride the coattails of the people that brought them in, Burke and Nonis. 

 

He was by far the worst drafter in the NHL of the new millennium. Since 2000 only 5 times have a team's draft produced 0 NHL games played and 0 points. 2 of those 5 times belong to Vancouver and both of those drafts were with Gillis as GM. 

Gillis was not my favorite GM but people regularly dismiss just how much he actually did for the team.

 

He was $&!#ty at drafting. But he also had a top team and was in its window of contention. Thats a significantly different focus for a GM. He surrounded the core group very effectively and added a few pueces to the core of the team. 

 

I mean, I think Erhoff and Hamhuis could be considered core players during the SCF run. They each had a huge impact on that team's results. He also re-signed the Sedins on the eve of free agency with exceptional value contracts.

 

He managed the cap significantly better than Benning has. Up until the last couple of years when he basically was forced to keep the band together. 

 

Where Gillis clearly outshines Benning is his expansion of the front office and the various ideas he brought to try to gain advantages. Benning has basically shrunk the head office to him and Weisbrod micro managing the entire organization.

[wallstreetamigo]

10 minutes ago, erkayloomeh said:

We will see.  But I'm willing to bet jb is done with those types of signings now that he has players developing.  

No matter what, anyone he would have signed would have been stop gap until our young (well drafted) players developed. 

I find it hard to be critical when a gm has taken over a team with lousy prospects and an aging core.

But maybe that's just me. 

Like I have said, what he does this offseason will give a very good indication of just how much he has learned and whether he can see his past mistakes as actually being mistakes.

 

Thats kind of my point. You dont overpay for stop gap players.

 

Hecoukd have accomplished the same thing saving his cap he spent on those guys and trading for a similar player plus additional picks/prospects from a csp strapped team.

Edited June 2, 2021 by wallstreetamigo

[lmm]

8 minutes ago, erkayloomeh said:

We will see.  But I'm willing to bet jb is done with those types of signings now that he has players developing.  

No matter what, anyone he would have signed would have been stop gap until our young (well drafted) players developed. 

I find it hard to be critical when a gm has taken over a team with lousy prospects and an aging core.

But maybe that's just me. 

this is the Dubas thread, right?

well when Jim arrived we had Mike Santorelli

Jim did not sign Santorelli, but Toronto, under the newly minted Shanaplan did.

It is important to remember that the original Shanaplan included Lou Lamourillo

(I had faith in that incarnation  of the Shanaplan, but lost faith the day Sweet Lou left for NY Isles

Santorelli and Cody Franson were traded for a 1st +Leepin Liepsic

 

Now I know every time I bring something like this up, I hear, " One guy, 7 years ago"

 

So please try to not reply with "One guy 7 years ago" because that is only one example

 

I actually think a team in the position that the canucks were in then, not terribly different than the one we are in now, is in a good place to sign guys that want to win cups.

"Sign here, we will trade you to a contender" I don't think Jim has ever used that pitch

[Bertuzzipunch]

28 minutes ago, 204CanucksFan said:

In what ways does Gillis clobber Benning? Im not huge fan of Benning, he has done well steadily rebuilding the prospect pool but has made many mistakes in terms of UFA signings and trades but he has still had more success on building a sustainable franchise than Gillis ever had. I'm of the vastly unpopular opinion that Gillis is one of the worst GMs in this franchise's history, sure the on ice results were great when he was GM but he had very, very little to do with that. He went all in to get us a Stanley Cup, which we missed, without ever restocking the cupboards. In fact many of the picks he traded away other teams used to draft very good NHL players that would be great to have today including, but limited to the 2012 draft in which both Frederik Anderson and Josh Anderson were both drafted by picks Gillis traded away.

 

The only good moves Gillis ever made were trading for Ehrhoff, signing Hamhuis and Samuelsson as UFAs and trading Schneider for the pick that got us Horvat. He didn't draft or bring in any of the core players for the 2011 cup run, the closest thing he did was resign some of them and ride the coattails of the people that brought them in, Burke and Nonis. 

 

He was by far the worst drafter in the NHL of the new millennium. Since 2000 only 5 times have a team's draft produced 0 NHL games played and 0 points. 2 of those 5 times belong to Vancouver and both of those drafts were with Gillis as GM. 

He brought in chris higgens, rafi torres, also that french guy(cant remember his name atm lol) Yes he was bad at drafting but he did bring in very good compliment pieces to go with the twins. 

[wallstreetamigo]

7 minutes ago, Bertuzzipunch said:

He brought in chris higgens, rafi torres, also that french guy(cant remember his name atm lol) Yes he was bad at drafting but he did bring in very good compliment pieces to go with the twins. 

Maxim Laperriere

[lmm]

31 minutes ago, Patel Bure said:

I realize that Linden is “the golden boy” in Vancouver (I love him as well), but we can’t automatically assume that he’s being objective with his comments.   
 

Aqua is a successful business man and yet he chose to keep Benning and Weisbrod over Linden and Brackett.  Could there be a legitimate reason to this or are we just going to go with “the narrative” that Aqua loves to surround himself with sychophants and “yes men?”

 

@wallstreetamigo

again, I think you answered your own question.

 

While I was not in love with Trevor like some here, the next question is will the Sedins actually be better?

The Canuck faithful have riculed the Oil;ers for Lowe/MacT and the rest of the old boys club, but look what is Vancouver doing now?

 

I think Benning and Linden buying into the "Sedins deseve another run" was a mistake

The Sedins played out their final contract doing nothing but padding their own stats

I know there is a popular story that they provided "Veteran Mentorship" but I do not see the result.

They did not stand up for themselves and they did not stand up for their teammates,

And going back to Sedin leadership is the wrong direction IMO

I waited for the final 6 years of their tenure to elapse hoping for a new direction

this is not the direction I was waiting for

[NewbieCanuckFan]

42 minutes ago, 204CanucksFan said:

In what ways does Gillis clobber Benning? Im not huge fan of Benning, he has done well steadily rebuilding the prospect pool but has made many mistakes in terms of UFA signings and trades but he has still had more success on building a sustainable franchise than Gillis ever had. I'm of the vastly unpopular opinion that Gillis is one of the worst GMs in this franchise's history, sure the on ice results were great when he was GM but he had very, very little to do with that. He went all in to get us a Stanley Cup, which we missed, without ever restocking the cupboards. In fact many of the picks he traded away other teams used to draft very good NHL players that would be great to have today including, but limited to the 2012 draft in which both Frederik Anderson and Josh Anderson were both drafted by picks Gillis traded away.

 

The only good moves Gillis ever made were trading for Ehrhoff, signing Hamhuis and Samuelsson as UFAs and trading Schneider for the pick that got us Horvat. He didn't draft or bring in any of the core players for the 2011 cup run, the closest thing he did was resign some of them and ride the coattails of the people that brought them in, Burke and Nonis. 

 

He was by far the worst drafter in the NHL of the new millennium. Since 2000 only 5 times have a team's draft produced 0 NHL games played and 0 points. 2 of those 5 times belong to Vancouver and both of those drafts were with Gillis as GM. 

Gillis drafting was horrible anyhow.  Though crying over a 3rd & 4th round pick is a bit much imho.

Edited June 2, 2021 by NewbieCanuckFan

[AlwaysACanuckFan]

Maple Leafs just released their new logo today 

[iceman64]

4 hours ago, IBatch said:

The only good thing the Leafs have managed in my lifetime at least, was a 7 game eventual WG thrashing in 93.     

Darryl Sittler vs Guy Lafleur was epic to watch... talk about back and fourth hockey full out, it was sooooo much fun to watch.. Dave Hodge I think announced it if I remember correctly, been quite awhile..  (side note) sometimes they even had light fog on the ice during a game and then they'd set up fans (excuse the pun) and it would finally dissipate then game on...

[erkayloomeh]

28 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Like I have said, what he does this offseason will give a very good indication of just how much he has learned and whether he can see his past mistakes as actually being mistakes.

 

Thats kind of my point. You dont overpay for stop gap players.

 

Hecoukd have accomplished the same thing saving his cap he spent on those guys and trading for a similar player plus additional picks/prospects from a csp strapped team.

Yes this offseason is critical but I think his hands are still tied. Beagle rooster and LE are all one more year and from what I understand we aren't any further ahead buying them out. 

I think we still have one more year before we turn the corner and really start to compete. 

[Bertuzzipunch]

1 minute ago, erkayloomeh said:

Yes this offseason is critical but I think his hands are still tied. Beagle rooster and LE are all one more year and from what I understand we aren't any further ahead buying them out. 

I think we still have one more year before we turn the corner and really start to compete. 

Yeah unless a miracle happens i dont see much change but we are still a team to fight for a playoff spot with petey and podz in the lineup next season. Once the dead weight is gone things will get better 

[Provost]

2 hours ago, lmm said:

I agree with most of that,

but If we think we shouldn't compare Jim to Bad  GMs, we shouldn't compare his drafting to very many former Cancuk gms either.

 

I still think a clone of Gillis/Benning would make one good GM

You mean a love child of the two of them?

 

or maybe...

[204CanucksFan]

3 minutes ago, lmm said:

Manny

Raffi

Higgy

Lappy

Glass

Hamhius

Tambellini

Ballard

Alberts 

Rome

Bulduc

Tanev

Oreskovich

Manny - Great character player, great coach, great at faceoffs in the 2011 playoffs played 6 games and produced 0 points. Injuries suck but not that great for us.

 

Raffi - 7 points in the playoffs plus 29 in season, huge liability at all times on the ice, game 80 against EDM was the first in a long list of garbage hits that started a parade of suspensions.

 

Higgins - Decent depth for the cup run but resigned by Gillis to a bad contract that had to be bought by Vancouver.

 

Lappy - Alright 4th liner that was never anything more than that. Alright when he was here, on a cheap contract but players like him are a penny a dozen.

 

Glass - 10 points in the regular season, as well as being the only regular season regular with a negative +/- and no points in the playoffs, mighty replaceable.

 

Hamhuis - I already stated he was a core piece and one of the very few good moves by Gillis.

 

Tambellini - Just OK in the regular season with 17 points but only played 6 playoff games with no points and was -3, hardly important.

 

Ballard - I knew someone would bring him up. Put up a mighty 10 points while being the worst +/- of all of our regular dmen of the regular season as well as contributing 0 points in 10 games with a -4 in the playoffs, again, injuries suck.

 

Alberts - Put up 7 points while only playing half the regular season and put up 0 points in the playoffs, getting into 9 games instead of only 5 because of the Rome suspension in game 3 of the Finals.

 

Rome - 5 points in the regular season and only 1 in the playoffs and yet somehow this 6/7 dman is possibly most responsible for us losing in the SCF, at least if the accounts of the Bruin players are to be trusted.

 

Bolduc - 4 points in the regular season and 0 points in 3 playoff games, absolutely critical to our teams success 

 

Tanev - I absolutely missed him as a Gillis signing, great pick up, only produced 1 point in the regular season and playoffs but it was definitely the start of a beautiful relationship. But only played 5 playoff games and wasn't very important for the Cup run but still a great player for us in the years after.

 

Oreskovich - 3 points in 16 regular season games and 0 points in 19 playoff games.

 

Again, most of these players are OK depth, 4th line and bottom pairing type players that you need to compete but almost none of them were significant pieces that were critical to our succes that year and almost all were easily replaceable with any one of 50 or 60 other players from that year.