Hogtown-Implosion Should Assist JB

[knucklehead91]

4 hours ago, IBatch said:

He was offered 13 in SJ.  Widely considered the best free agent ever that went to market given his age.   I still don't have a problem with it.   EK and Doughty also got paid, as did the rest of the guys in his generation.   Stamkos reportedly turned down 12.   Markets are what they are.     My issue is with Mathews, Marner and Nylander, not Tavares deal.   Covid screwed TO about as much as any other team, Dubas almost ruined it for every other GM with second contracts.   Wonder what Mathews will get his next deal?  

 

McKinnon signed a deal before he took it to another level.   One year before.   Before that his stats were decent but not great like since.    You can bet it would a lot different if he signed a two-three year bridge, if Rantanen gets 9.5ish what would he take?    And yes i know he says he won't take much more, guess we will find out eventually.    Skinner, Duchene .... compared to Tavares don't look bad do they?   Stone at 9 is close to the same take home as Tavares at 11 in TO.   Just because they won the JT sweepstakes, didn't make it an automatic that Mathews and Marner needed deal like the ones they got. 

Mackinnon already stated he is taking a discount on his next deal. The question is, how much? Will the CBA allow him to take an 8mil deal. And like I said, just what HAS Tavares done? EK was handsdown the BEST dman for a substantial amount of time. The guy has Norris Trophys, puts up nearly as much points as Tavares as a dman. He as 2 Norris trophies.... Doughty 2 cups, Norris trophy. They’ve earned their keep. Karlsson also cashed in and will likely never win a cup. Yes Tavares has put his time in the league and produced at a fairly good rate. But for him to accept that kind of money and then expect to win a cup/want to win a cup, is absolutely selfish. Thats my issue with Tavares and his contract. Yes there are a lot of bad contracts like that out there. They are guilty of being greedy and its handicapping the teams that signed them

And yes the Matthews, Marner, McDavid deals are the worst thing for teams/league. Now every team who has a superstar is going to face ridiculous wage increases and it will start pricing guys out of the league eventually when every team has a 10-13mil player and the cap hasnt increased nearly enough to support that inflation, middle men will be forced overseas and more plugs will fill in roster spots because they cant afford the price of a 2nd line player. 

[IBatch]

32 minutes ago, knucklehead91 said:

Mackinnon already stated he is taking a discount on his next deal. The question is, how much? Will the CBA allow him to take an 8mil deal. And like I said, just what HAS Tavares done? EK was handsdown the BEST dman for a substantial amount of time. The guy has Norris Trophys, puts up nearly as much points as Tavares as a dman. He as 2 Norris trophies.... Doughty 2 cups, Norris trophy. They’ve earned their keep. Karlsson also cashed in and will likely never win a cup. Yes Tavares has put his time in the league and produced at a fairly good rate. But for him to accept that kind of money and then expect to win a cup/want to win a cup, is absolutely selfish. Thats my issue with Tavares and his contract. Yes there are a lot of bad contracts like that out there. They are guilty of being greedy and its handicapping the teams that signed them

And yes the Matthews, Marner, McDavid deals are the worst thing for teams/league. Now every team who has a superstar is going to face ridiculous wage increases and it will start pricing guys out of the league eventually when every team has a 10-13mil player and the cap hasnt increased nearly enough to support that inflation, middle men will be forced overseas and more plugs will fill in roster spots because they cant afford the price of a 2nd line player. 

Crosby's second deal with the exact same cap percentage at the time as McDavid's - yes it took time and the cap to go up for them to get another run at cups but it did happen.   Don't have a problem with McDavids contract as a result and they did offer him the max, he turned it down to help the team.   Tavares ... well i remember Messier signed here at 6 ... wow.   And Sundin at 10 wow.   At the time both very high, sure not a lot of term but look at their ages.   Tavares earned his contract.   Just like AP earned his, and Stone his, and yes even Skinner and Duchene and all these other guys that didn't earn top dollar during their second contracts.   Because that's the way it is supposed to be.   Stamkos "discount" ... offered 12-13 ... stayed in TB to compete - even with his net pay about the same as 10.5 in TO he still took a discount.   Agree Tavares didn't take a big discount to stay go to TO (only 2 SJ million) but disagree that anyone who had paid their dues shouldn't get a shot at what the free market offers.  

 

Tavares is not the reason Mathews and Marner and Nylander got overpaid.   That was an inexperience millennial GM screwing things up and even he's admitted to it.   A few teams bit - like Chakya (another Dubas) in ARI with Keller and OEL.    Most didn't including JB right down to the wire with BB (remember those threads - 7.5- 8 lol)...

[CaptKirk888]

11 hours ago, lmm said:

conversation too difficult for you ?

shall we all sing Kumbaya now?

No just f#$king repetitive and boring. But maybe you can send me a recording of you singing Kumbaya (my lord) it might be more interesting than the constant drivel spewed out by the “amigo”.

[the grinder]

11 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Not entirely the same thing though. I am talking about filling the bottom 6 roles for a few years at the time ratger than wastibg cap signing those overpriced guys for 4 year terms. And accumulating picks and prospects for cap dumps, not paying picks outright for cap relief players.

 

He took on a 6 mil cap player with multiple years left on it and yes only paid a 3rd but didnt accumulate assets. He got a good player but thats a long term contract that may end up pretty ugly. Thats a move a contender makes to add to their team, not a team that is rebuilding.

 

Had he not also signed Myers the Schmidt deal would have made more sense.

 

I liked the trade though as I like Schmidt 

well schimdt is an asset  for a 3rd round pick  .  really so why did a contending team like vegas  trade Schimdt  then ?  

[Bertuzzipunch]

2 minutes ago, the grinder said:

well schimdt is an asset  for a 3rd round pick  .  really so why did a contending team like vegas  trade Schimdt  then ?  

So you really not know the answer to that?

[the grinder]

Just now, Bertuzzipunch said:

So you really not know the answer to that?

of course i do know the answer . the other poster said schimdt should only be picked up by a contending team  not a rebuilding team , hence the question   then why did  vegas a contending  team  trade him then ,     so does that make any sense  ? no   lol

[Honky Cat]

15 hours ago, 204CanucksFan said:

Manny - Great character player, great coach, great at faceoffs in the 2011 playoffs played 6 games and produced 0 points. Injuries suck but not that great for us.

 

Raffi - 7 points in the playoffs plus 29 in season, huge liability at all times on the ice, game 80 against EDM was the first in a long list of garbage hits that started a parade of suspensions.

 

Higgins - Decent depth for the cup run but resigned by Gillis to a bad contract that had to be bought by Vancouver.

 

Lappy - Alright 4th liner that was never anything more than that. Alright when he was here, on a cheap contract but players like him are a penny a dozen.

 

Glass - 10 points in the regular season, as well as being the only regular season regular with a negative +/- and no points in the playoffs, mighty replaceable.

 

Hamhuis - I already stated he was a core piece and one of the very few good moves by Gillis.

 

Tambellini - Just OK in the regular season with 17 points but only played 6 playoff games with no points and was -3, hardly important.

 

Ballard - I knew someone would bring him up. Put up a mighty 10 points while being the worst +/- of all of our regular dmen of the regular season as well as contributing 0 points in 10 games with a -4 in the playoffs, again, injuries suck.

 

Alberts - Put up 7 points while only playing half the regular season and put up 0 points in the playoffs, getting into 9 games instead of only 5 because of the Rome suspension in game 3 of the Finals.

 

Rome - 5 points in the regular season and only 1 in the playoffs and yet somehow this 6/7 dman is possibly most responsible for us losing in the SCF, at least if the accounts of the Bruin players are to be trusted.

 

Bolduc - 4 points in the regular season and 0 points in 3 playoff games, absolutely critical to our teams success 

 

Tanev - I absolutely missed him as a Gillis signing, great pick up, only produced 1 point in the regular season and playoffs but it was definitely the start of a beautiful relationship. But only played 5 playoff games and wasn't very important for the Cup run but still a great player for us in the years after.

 

Oreskovich - 3 points in 16 regular season games and 0 points in 19 playoff games.

 

Again, most of these players are OK depth, 4th line and bottom pairing type players that you need to compete but almost none of them were significant pieces that were critical to our succes that year and almost all were easily replaceable with any one of 50 or 60 other players from that year.

Hamhuis literally fell into his lap

 

[Me_]

 

[Nuxfanabroad]

Anywhoo, should EP & QH accept reasonable bridges, we can all rejoice. I won't be able to resist giving a subtle, hat-tip nod, to Hogtown's direction.

 

Their deplorable cap-construction is an absolute, cautionary-tale, any/all negotiating GM's may point to. Would be sweet to have 3 more yrs where each & every player's number is reasonably-proportional that that of any teammate's.

 

Just one opinion.

[Hairy Kneel]

[philtbc829]

Both KD and JB are failures IMO.....the only difference being the Leafs have made the playoffs more often (yet losing in the 1st round) than the Nucks....

[knucklehead91]

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

Crosby's second deal with the exact same cap percentage at the time as McDavid's - yes it took time and the cap to go up for them to get another run at cups but it did happen.   Don't have a problem with McDavids contract as a result and they did offer him the max, he turned it down to help the team.   Tavares ... well i remember Messier signed here at 6 ... wow.   And Sundin at 10 wow.   At the time both very high, sure not a lot of term but look at their ages.   Tavares earned his contract.   Just like AP earned his, and Stone his, and yes even Skinner and Duchene and all these other guys that didn't earn top dollar during their second contracts.   Because that's the way it is supposed to be.   Stamkos "discount" ... offered 12-13 ... stayed in TB to compete - even with his net pay about the same as 10.5 in TO he still took a discount.   Agree Tavares didn't take a big discount to stay go to TO (only 2 SJ million) but disagree that anyone who had paid their dues shouldn't get a shot at what the free market offers.  

 

Tavares is not the reason Mathews and Marner and Nylander got overpaid.   That was an inexperience millennial GM screwing things up and even he's admitted to it.   A few teams bit - like Chakya (another Dubas) in ARI with Keller and OEL.    Most didn't including JB right down to the wire with BB (remember those threads - 7.5- 8 lol)...

But really, where does McDavid, Matthew and Marner’s contracts go from here? McDavid is putting up insane numbers, Matthews is scoring at an incredible rate. How big is the next payday? Which isnt too far away and the salary cap is going to be stagnant, we might see a small increase 4 years down the road. But by then These guys are going to argue for more money and less of a team. I know no one saw COVID coming and a flat cap. But regardless, I doubt the cap would have gone up enough to even help them get 1 more quality player. I also wouldnt put the entire blame on Kyle Dumb@$$ McDavid/Draisaitl contracts set the precedence for Matthews/Marner not the Tavares deal. Where Dumb@$$ screwed up was Tavares signing in 18-19 for 11mil. That had an effect on the Skinner extension in 19-20. He put up 40g in 18-19 and signed at the end of the season and Tavares had 47g in his first year with Toronto. 
Tavares signed in 18-19.
Skinner, Duchene, Stone signed in 19-20 I believe
 

It’s not about wether or not any UFA shouldnt get that kinda money in their big UFA deal. Its wether they are interested in winning a cup or are they only interested in money. Just because you should get 11mil doesnt mean you should take it. I mean come on man, they arent being hard done by with the paycut they take. I’d consider 20-30% less a paycut. 10-15% is a joke of a “paycut” its just a way to make them look good and pretend like they did the team a favour. It doesnt give the GM much wiggle room to squeeze in another decent depth guy.

 

No bridge contract for McDavid is what f***ed everything in the RFA world. Draisaitl’s contract only looks good because he wasnt doing much until McDavid showed up and then they tore it up and Draisaitl is now able to handle his own without needing McDavid. But before that, Draisaitl wasnt able to carry the load. His points were reflective of McDavids impact the first few years. 
 

Toronto and Edmonton are headed in a really bad direction and only a few years away from it.

 

Draisaitl is going to get a handsome pay raise in 2025 from his current 8.7m cap hit. Cap aint expected to go up and if it does its probably not going to be the 4-5mil raise he will be demanding. 
 

Matthews is a UFA in 2024 and He will be lookin for the big goal scorer salary. Dont see much room or any further success for a team with 3 10mil+ contracts when Matthews needs a raise. Someone has to go. Its between Marner and Matthews. IMO Marner needs to go. You cant move Tavares contract, who the hell would want a 31year old guy this summer at 11mil for 5 years.. 35-36years old making 11mil in his final year. No f***ing thank you.
 

COVID and the flat cap is hindsight, which is why these guys will probably regret their contracts. Because by the time the cap catches up to the inflation of these contracts, its going to be towards the end of their prime years. 
 

Idk I just feel very strongly about these guys contracts and how they had zero forethought about the team and the effect those kind of contracts would have in a salary cap world. Flat cap or no flat cap. It still wasnt a team first choice.
 

[Ballisticsports.]

14 hours ago, knucklehead91 said:

But really, where does McDavid, Matthew and Marner’s contracts go from here? McDavid is putting up insane numbers, Matthews is scoring at an incredible rate. How big is the next payday? Which isnt too far away and the salary cap is going to be stagnant, we might see a small increase 4 years down the road. But by then These guys are going to argue for more money and less of a team. I know no one saw COVID coming and a flat cap. But regardless, I doubt the cap would have gone up enough to even help them get 1 more quality player. I also wouldnt put the entire blame on Kyle Dumb@$$ McDavid/Draisaitl contracts set the precedence for Matthews/Marner not the Tavares deal. Where Dumb@$$ screwed up was Tavares signing in 18-19 for 11mil. That had an effect on the Skinner extension in 19-20. He put up 40g in 18-19 and signed at the end of the season and Tavares had 47g in his first year with Toronto. 
Tavares signed in 18-19.
Skinner, Duchene, Stone signed in 19-20 I believe
 

It’s not about wether or not any UFA shouldnt get that kinda money in their big UFA deal. Its wether they are interested in winning a cup or are they only interested in money. Just because you should get 11mil doesnt mean you should take it. I mean come on man, they arent being hard done by with the paycut they take. I’d consider 20-30% less a paycut. 10-15% is a joke of a “paycut” its just a way to make them look good and pretend like they did the team a favour. It doesnt give the GM much wiggle room to squeeze in another decent depth guy.

 

No bridge contract for McDavid is what f***ed everything in the RFA world. Draisaitl’s contract only looks good because he wasnt doing much until McDavid showed up and then they tore it up and Draisaitl is now able to handle his own without needing McDavid. But before that, Draisaitl wasnt able to carry the load. His points were reflective of McDavids impact the first few years. 
 

Toronto and Edmonton are headed in a really bad direction and only a few years away from it.

 

Draisaitl is going to get a handsome pay raise in 2025 from his current 8.7m cap hit. Cap aint expected to go up and if it does its probably not going to be the 4-5mil raise he will be demanding. 
 

Matthews is a UFA in 2024 and He will be lookin for the big goal scorer salary. Dont see much room or any further success for a team with 3 10mil+ contracts when Matthews needs a raise. Someone has to go. Its between Marner and Matthews. IMO Marner needs to go. You cant move Tavares contract, who the hell would want a 31year old guy this summer at 11mil for 5 years.. 35-36years old making 11mil in his final year. No f***ing thank you.
 

COVID and the flat cap is hindsight, which is why these guys will probably regret their contracts. Because by the time the cap catches up to the inflation of these contracts, its going to be towards the end of their prime years. 
 

Idk I just feel very strongly about these guys contracts and how they had zero forethought about the team and the effect those kind of contracts would have in a salary cap world. Flat cap or no flat cap. It still wasnt a team first choice.
 

Reminds me of when one of our guys said,

My contract sucks

Yet, he got traded (to where he wanted too as well) and still screwed us for giving him a "horrible" contract and trading him to a place that made him happy

[ShawnAntoski]

On 6/1/2021 at 4:54 PM, Fanuck said:

They should never have let Lou Lamoriello go - would've just been a matter of time before he built a legitimate contender there.  Actually,  maybe it was for the better he left TO lol....

No chance, Lou stays there with an very assertive Dubas wanting to prove himself - I guess, he is learning the double edge sword of leadership: you take all the credit as well as the blame.

[ShawnAntoski]

22 hours ago, knucklehead91 said:

Mackinnon already stated he is taking a discount on his next deal. The question is, how much? Will the CBA allow him to take an 8mil deal. And like I said, just what HAS Tavares done? EK was handsdown the BEST dman for a substantial amount of time. The guy has Norris Trophys, puts up nearly as much points as Tavares as a dman. He as 2 Norris trophies.... Doughty 2 cups, Norris trophy. They’ve earned their keep. Karlsson also cashed in and will likely never win a cup. Yes Tavares has put his time in the league and produced at a fairly good rate. But for him to accept that kind of money and then expect to win a cup/want to win a cup, is absolutely selfish. Thats my issue with Tavares and his contract. Yes there are a lot of bad contracts like that out there. They are guilty of being greedy and its handicapping the teams that signed them

And yes the Matthews, Marner, McDavid deals are the worst thing for teams/league. Now every team who has a superstar is going to face ridiculous wage increases and it will start pricing guys out of the league eventually when every team has a 10-13mil player and the cap hasnt increased nearly enough to support that inflation, middle men will be forced overseas and more plugs will fill in roster spots because they cant afford the price of a 2nd line player. 

Imo, Mackinnons’ deal will be like Crosby’s deals: high value contract but with a yr/two added on to decrease the yearly cap cost.

 

JB & his team (with Aquamans support) will have to sell the future to the EP & QH for them to take deal that works for both

.

Edited June 3, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[Alflives]

8 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

No chance, Lou stays there with an very assertive Dubas wanting to prove himself - I guess, he is learning the double edge sword of leadership: you take all the credit as well as the blame.

What has Dubas done that would be good? 

[ShawnAntoski]

37 minutes ago, Alflives said:

What has Dubas done that would be good? 

Not saying anything about his tenure, just commenting that having a very assertive Dubas and Lou sharing the decision making process is not a workable solution for them and Lou recognized this.  Shanahan seems to had staked his reputation with the younger Dubas

Edited June 3, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[Alflives]

40 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Not saying anything about his tenure, just commenting that having a very assertive Dubas and Lou sharing the decision making process is not a workable solution for them and Lou recognized this.  Shanahan seems to had staked his reputation with the younger Dubas

And Dubas, with his obvious over pay contracts for the top guys, has connected Shanahan (and himself) to a core that folds under pressure.  

[RU SERIOUS]

On 6/1/2021 at 6:50 PM, wallstreetamigo said:

I wasnt really saying any of this.

 

I was saying that context matters in assessing the impact a GM actually had on drafting. A lot of other factors do play a role.

 

I was responding to someone proclaiming Benning one of the best drafting GM's in history.

 

The fact is that his drafting can only truly be assessed many years down the road based on what impact it actually ends up accomplishing, and its insane to suggest otherwise.

 

I like his drafting overall. Do I think its the greatest of all time? Not even close at this point. His drafting has produced no actual winning results yet. And 2 of his high 1st round picks were clearly bad choices, both at the time and especially in hindsight. He has a ways to go to compare to some of the legendary drafting GM's imo.

Such Honesty !   

Bravo !

[RU SERIOUS]

On 6/1/2021 at 8:32 PM, iceman64 said:

Darryl Sittler vs Guy Lafleur was epic to watch... talk about back and fourth hockey full out, it was sooooo much fun to watch.. Dave Hodge I think announced it if I remember correctly, been quite awhile..  (side note) sometimes they even had light fog on the ice during a game and then they'd set up fans (excuse the pun) and it would finally dissipate then game on...

Yea, those guys were both incredible players. the Montreal teams of the 70's into early 80's were stacked to the brim with "A" players. Absolute Dream teams.