[Discussion] Are the Canucks now a legitimate playoff team?

[DrJockitch]

14 minutes ago, highwayman3 said:

Ad hominems and personal attacks against those who don't agree with you, how mature.  Rielly, Brodie, Muzzin and Holl at at least complement each other and Toronto did have a lower GA than we did (24th to 6th actually) with worse goaltending.  You can bury your head in the sand all you like. 

 

Here, let me phrase things in a fashion you can understand: CaNuCKZZZ for DA CuPPP If Yoou don t like Benigng and DA DEFENSE You ARE BIG DUMB DUMB@!!!!  WOOOOO

I think that is a very valid and useful comparison since we are both returning with the same defences next year.

Doesn’t change the fact we rebuilt the d last year and then had no camp and almost no practices. Then we rebuilt the d again this year. 
Nobody knows what this D is. It may have a solid number one d-man if OEL rebounds from the AZ malaise and Poolman is closer to the top pairing D-man Maurice tried to use him as before he got COVID. We may have a D with a declining OEL and Myers on the top pairing which would be definitively one of the worst in the NHL. 
To demand proof that Toronto’s D is better as you did above this early in the off-season is an idiotic thing to do, if you want to keep going down this road.   Nothing has been decided, no practices, no games played. 
You are right I should have stated your opinion was idiotic, not that you were an idiot. My apologies. 

Edited July 29, 2021 by DrJockitch

[alt kilgore]

Why the question?

They HAVE to be a playoff team now.  Jim's gone all in.  Another 1st, a 2nd, some later round picks gone.  Getting back a 3rd for Schmidt.  Continuing the draft deficit MO, building a team in large part through FA and trades.

 

I'm quite stoked about next season.  But it basically HAS to work with this ensemble. He won't have any cap now next season if it doesn't work. But he'll be gone in that case so it will up to the next GM to clean it up. Why worry about that eh?

 

Its just kinda funny watching a GM who came in as a great build-through-the-draft specialist, something the Canucks have been aching for, almost from day one, try to perpetually build the team with high priced FAs, or dishing out picks and prospects in trade deals, with stated goals of contending in the playoffs every year.  Just not what I expected from him. But that is the road he's chosen.

 

At some point, he must have come to some new woke realization that it was just as valid buying your team, as it is developing it. I'm exaggerating but that's not a dig for digging sake, it may very well be a valid approach in the new NHL.  Players are getting better, faster, more skilled earlier.  No longer such an easy divide between the stars and the goons, who now don't even exist.  Which means more choices for decent players looking to be traded or to be signed as FAs in general pretty well every TD and off season.  Knowing draft picks are still a crap shoot.  Even first, second rounders.  The only problem with Jim's approach is that you MUST win on those trades and FAs if you are draining your cupboards to do it. And he's been hitting about .250 so far.  The future is literally, right now.

 

But I want to be an optimist. That this time he's got the mix right. And I am hopeful this team can gel quickly, and do something great. He's going all in on the Wimpy plan.  Worry about tomorrow, tomorrow. Just will have to find a way to replenish the pool somehow , some way, in the future.  Good luck. I hope it works!  It just might. And I'm hungry!

 

 

 

[Alflives]

Just now, highwayman3 said:

Lol.  One clip of Morgan Rielly making a mistake agains the best player in the league is meaningless.  Again the Leafs were 24th in GA compared to the Canucks being 6th and they haven't had great goaltending.  It's silly to think that the Canucks defense is better after losing Edler and Schmidt (who I don't blame JB for).  

Leaf Lover.  

 

We are getting 100+ points.  That will be 90 more points than 11 million dollar Mitchell Marner has goals.  

[highwayman3]

9 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

I think that is a very valid and useful comparison since we are both returning with the same defences next year. Doesn’t change the fact we rebuilt the d last year and then had no camp and almost no practices. Then we rebuilt the d again this year. 
Nobody knows what this D is. It may have a solid number one d-man if OEL rebounds from the AZ malaise and Poolman is closer to the top pairing D-man Maurice tried to use him as before he got COVID. We may have a D with a declining OEL and Myers on the top pairing which would be definitively one of the worst in the NHL. 
To demand proof that Toronto’s D is better as you did above early in the off-season is an idiotic thing to do if you want to keep going down this road.   Nothing has been decided, no practices, no games played. 
Your right I should have stated your opinion was idiotic, not that you were an idiot. My apologies. 

So your argument is that we can't make any opinions on the matter because the defence has been rebuilt so throw all past precedence and history out the window.  Sure, so the Canucks could be first or worst, the Sabres could win the cup because who knows?? There are new players and no practices yet.  What an absolutely asinine and quite frankly retarded point of view.  I am not demanding proof of anything, don't know where you got that bizarre notion from.  

 

Let me clarify things for you, and underline and bold the letters to assist your understanding: based on statistical probabilities, and recent history, swapping Edler and Schmidt for OEL and Poolman is unlikely to shoot us 20 spots up in goals against.  As such, I think it's pretty reasonable and realistic to project Toronto having a better defence than us yet again.  

Edited July 29, 2021 by highwayman3

[King Heffy]

6 minutes ago, highwayman3 said:

Lol.  One clip of Morgan Rielly making a mistake agains the best player in the league is meaningless.  Again the Leafs were 24th in GA compared to the Canucks being 6th and they haven't had great goaltending.  It's silly to think that the Canucks defense is better after losing Edler and Schmidt (who I don't blame JB for).  

Rielly is one of the biggest defensive liabilities in the league.  This isn't an isolated occurrence and his refusal to even try to play like an NHLer in his own zone is a big reason why the Leafs get destroyed in the playoffs every year.  Allowing him to play like that without repercussions makes the whole team worse, and it shows.

[DrJockitch]

Just now, highwayman3 said:

So your argument is that we can't make any opinions on the matter because the defence has been rebuilt so throw all past precedence and history out the window.  Sure, so the Canucks could be first or worst, the Sabres could win the cup because who knows?? There are new players and no practices yet.  What an absolutely asinine and quite frankly retarded point of view.  I am not demanding proof of anything, don't know where you got that bizarre notion from.  

 

Let me clarify things for you, and underline and bold the letters to assist your understanding: based on statistical probabilities, and recent history, swapping Edler and Schmidt is unlikely to shoot us 20 spots up in goals against.  As such, I think it's pretty reasonable and realistic to project Toronto having a better defence than us yet again.  

Hey if you were asking for opinions then fine yours stinks as much as mine. You wanted proof. 
One thing statistics have shown fairly consistently, it is that statistics do a poor job of predicting team sports. Doesn’t mean they are useless but they are a tool with limited utility. 
That is not relevant or terribly salient though as what you asked for was not anyone’s take on statistical probabilities you asked for proof. 

[highwayman3]

1 minute ago, King Heffy said:

Rielly is one of the biggest defensive liabilities in the league.  This isn't an isolated occurrence and his refusal to even try to play like an NHLer in his own zone is a big reason why the Leafs get destroyed in the playoffs every year.  Allowing him to play like that without repercussions makes the whole team worse, and it shows.

I don't think he's that bad, but in any case I'm not talking specifically about Rielly.  I'm referring to the defence as a whole.  

[King Heffy]

2 minutes ago, highwayman3 said:

I don't think he's that bad, but in any case I'm not talking specifically about Rielly.  I'm referring to the defence as a whole.  

Their defense is absolute trash.  The only actual NHLers are Muzzin and Brodie.  

[DrJockitch]

I think people should really get off Morgan Reilly’s back as much as Quinn’s. 
It is really hard to score in the NHL and you need D that are game breakers. You hope you have the right partners and systems to cover them but you need creativity to score. 
There is a reason scoring D-men keep ending in the minuses and keep getting paid better then their more defensive minded partners. 
A lot is deployment as well. You put these guys out more when you are loosing and need to push for a goal. It is that opening up and desperation that leads to the minuses they get very frequently. 
Quinn and Myers are a great picture of that this year. Quinn only played about 20% of his minutes with Myers and was -14, he played same amounts of minutes with Benn and was +2.  Green only really used the Q-Myers pairing when down a goal and pushing to even things, and that was too often this year.

[Nuck1991]

i still think we neee that 1 top4 rhd, some one like parankyo, who can play physical and shutdown role. Myers is just not good enough

[IBatch]

On 7/28/2021 at 8:15 PM, Patel Bure said:

I will have to agree with this unfortunately.   

 

That right side D is absolute urine if I'm being perfectly honest.   OEL-Myers has the potential to get lit up like a Christmas tree in my opinion.   Poolman is a 6th d-man while Hamonic is a #4.  Asking either guy to cover for Hughes on a 2nd pairing will be a very tall order.   

 

Our team is definitely be equipped for next season, but more work needs to be done as far as building a contender goes.   Replace Myers and Hamonic with Parayko and Manson and then we can talk about the 2nd round and beyond.

Lol.   If Myers is getting lit up them QHs is going to burn your eyes out.   I'm more worried about his ability to play the other side of the puck then either of those guys. 

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, DrJockitch said:

I think people should really get off Morgan Reilly’s back as much as Quinn’s. 
It is really hard to score in the NHL and you need D that are game breakers. You hope you have the right partners and systems to cover them but you need creativity to score. 
There is a reason scoring D-men keep ending in the minuses and keep getting paid better then their more defensive minded partners. 
A lot is deployment as well. You put these guys out more when you are loosing and need to push for a goal. It is that opening up and desperation that leads to the minuses they get very frequently. 
Quinn and Myers are a great picture of that this year. Quinn only played about 20% of his minutes with Myers and was -14, he played same amounts of minutes with Benn and was +2.  Green only really used the Q-Myers pairing when down a goal and pushing to even things, and that was too often this year.

So who was making the issue then?  Myers must of had one heck of a plus without QHs in this case, as he's also have been -14 too. 

[Patel Bure]

13 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Lol.   If Myers is getting lit up them QHs is going to burn your eyes out.   I'm more worried about his ability to play the other side of the puck then either of those guys. 

I don’t disagree with you.  

[King Heffy]

2 hours ago, DrJockitch said:

I think people should really get off Morgan Reilly’s back as much as Quinn’s. 
It is really hard to score in the NHL and you need D that are game breakers. You hope you have the right partners and systems to cover them but you need creativity to score. 
There is a reason scoring D-men keep ending in the minuses and keep getting paid better then their more defensive minded partners. 
A lot is deployment as well. You put these guys out more when you are loosing and need to push for a goal. It is that opening up and desperation that leads to the minuses they get very frequently. 
Quinn and Myers are a great picture of that this year. Quinn only played about 20% of his minutes with Myers and was -14, he played same amounts of minutes with Benn and was +2.  Green only really used the Q-Myers pairing when down a goal and pushing to even things, and that was too often this year.

If you're scoring that much and still in the minus, you need to improve defensively.  Quinn is young enough that he can improve now that we have an actual coach to implement a system.  Rielly has had multiple coaches in Toronto and his play in his own zone is still completely unacceptable.  There is zero room on a legit NHL team for a defenseman who can't play defense.

[DrJockitch]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

So who was making the issue then?  Myers must of had one heck of a plus without QHs in this case, as he's also have been -14 too. 

Problem with the internet, looking to blame someone and pile on. 
The pairing just doesn’t work.  As mentioned earlier though a lot of that is usage as they were primarily used situationally when already loosing to try and push the pace and take risks. 

[Viper007]

1 hour ago, King Heffy said:

If you're scoring that much and still in the minus, you need to improve defensively.  Quinn is young enough that he can improve now that we have an actual coach to implement a system.  Rielly has had multiple coaches in Toronto and his play in his own zone is still completely unacceptable.  There is zero room on a legit NHL team for a defenseman who can't play defense.

He's a minus because of scoring 5 on 5.  He gets most of his points on the PP.  If he can improve scoring, and improve on not getting scored on while 5 on 5, then his +/- will be good.

[ShawnAntoski]

To answer OP - on paper the Canucks should contend for a playoff spot, but the games are played for a reason.

 

Hopefully, the coaching staff delivers, the roster stays healthy and some luck for good measure.   

[Gollumpus]

A possible playoff team? Yes. A contending team, perhaps not. 

 

Goal is perhaps the most solid position for this team. If they are winning mostly, because of goaltending, then they will likely not go far in the playoffs (assuming they make the playoffs).

 

There is a lack of talent/ability on defense. After Ekman-Larsson, there is a significant drop off, and isn't there some questions regarding Ekman-Larsson? Hughes may be able to generate some points (mostly on the power play), but 5 v 5 he still needs a lot of work. The Juolevi/Rathbone situation will leave a number of folks tacked off regardless of how that plays out. The right side has far less talent than the guys on the left. One significant acquisition still has to be added there.

 

Forwards are the most talented group with a lot of depth. How they gel will be the big question.

 

                                                         regards,  G.

[Smashian Kassian]

Yes they are, the defense still needs work but the forward group is one capable of putting into (I'd say second tier) contention.

 

If Ekman-Larsson & Hughes both have good seasons, your talking about a 2 headed monster on the backend.

 

Hamonic is a nice piece to play the #4 role, the thing in the coming years will be figuring out the other two RS spots. Myers is a nice luxury anchoring the third paid (tho playing bigger minutes) but a bit of an odd fit with the OFDs & inefficient financially.

 

If they could find a way to bring in a Manson/Parayko type next offseason I'd really like it. 

[Viper007]

6 minutes ago, Smashian Kassian said:

Yes they are, the defense still needs work but the forward group is one capable of putting into (I'd say second tier) contention.

 

If Ekman-Larsson & Hughes both have good seasons, your talking about a 2 headed monster on the backend.

 

Hamonic is a nice piece to play the #4 role, the thing in the coming years will be figuring out the other two RS spots. Myers is a nice luxury anchoring the third paid (tho playing bigger minutes) but a bit of an odd fit with the OFDs & inefficient financially.

 

If they could find a way to bring in a Manson/Parayko type next offseason I'd really like it. 

Manson is not a #2 for me.  Parayko on the other hand, definitely is.