“New World Order”

[I.Am.Ironman]

@drummer4nowI love a good conspiracy theory, I've dabbled in them all, mostly when I was younger in university. I admit that it is fun. I've gone down the whole eye of providence road and all that. Why is it on the dollar bill? Who knows. The reality is that it has been a christian symbol for centuries. USA is a christian nation and has been since its beginning. The triangle symbolizes the holy trinity (father, son and holy spirit) and the eye can be interpreted many ways. Traditionally it is meant to symbolize the eye of god protecting/watching over humanity. Over hundreds of years the symbol stays consistent but the world changes - this, imo, leads to it getting misinterpreted as the context changes around the symbol. The USA was settled by European Christians - it is no surprise that a popular image made its way to America with the settlers. The symbol itself has been used in different contexts over history. The British used it in the late 1700s as a symbol for their judicial system, the French used it. America was founded around the same time so they used it as part of the seal of the united states. It was simply a popular image of the times.

 

https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20201112-the-eye-of-providence-the-symbol-with-a-secret-meaning

"Unfortunately for the conspiracy theorists, the Eye of Providence on the one-dollar bill tells us much more about late 18th-Century aesthetics than it does about the authority of secret elite"

 

As for the bible... you can't legitimize what is in the bible because "a billion people adhere to it". The bible is a collection of books written in various languages, that are now long dead, over a period thousands of years, that has now been "translated" into the current languages. Hell, the current bible was 'tweaked' by King James' bishops because the bible didn't condone divorce, he didn't like his wife and certain bible teachings affected his claim to the throne. I'm sure the "King James Version" rings a bell. The bible has been a beacon of power for much longer than any secret society, this consequently has lead to frequent "re-interpretations".

 

You reference the bible then say that the secret elite are also hiding aliens or alien tech.. which, if it was the case, goes against the teachings in the bible. Religion = power, especially in the USA. The government acknowledging alien existence would not only be a national security risk but it would turn a lot of religious teachings on its head. A "you want the truth?! You can't handle the truth!" situation.

 

If anything, it may even be probable that the government has alien technology, I think so anyway. But that is likely in the hands of deep branches of the US military, not in the hands of Jay Z or Jeff Bezos. Elon Musk is the second richest person in the world - he hates Jeff Bezos lol. I guess what I'm getting at is that a lot of these theories pick and choose a path that fits their narrative without considering the whole picture. Facts get lost over the story of history.

[JM_]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

Do you actually believe this stuff?  For those of us fortunate enough to live anywhere in a free and democratic society our lives have immensely improved over the last 100 years, and they continue to do so.  

Your homework for today is to go out kiss the sidewalk, and say thank you to the lamp post.  

its just another person trying to spread doubt however they can. If pseudoscience doesn't work, heck why not try weird geopolitical conspiracy theories? I wonder whats next. 

[Gurn]

2 minutes ago, JM_ said:

I wonder whats next. 

Incoming "sheeple" reference, and we will be implored to "do our own research".

[JM_]

Just now, gurn said:

Incoming "sheeple" reference, and we will be implored to "do our own research".

I thought sheeple was the opener in all this?

 

I just wonder how long the walk along Main Street in Stupid Town will be. 

[Ilunga]

18 hours ago, Bure_of_94 said:

 

“The future will be about finding a way to reduce the population… Of course, we will not be able to execute people or build camps. We get rid of them by making them believe it is for their own good… We will find or cause something, a pandemic targeting certain people, a real economic crisis or not, a virus affecting the old or the elderly, it doesn’t matter, the weak and the fearful will succumb to it. The stupid will believe in it and ask to be treated. We will have taken care of having panned the treatment, a treatment that will be the solution. The selection of idiots will therefore be done by itself: they will go to the slaughterhouse alone.”
 - Jacques Attali 

Life is really simple but we insist on making it complicated 

 

Confucius 

[erkayloomeh]

On 9/11/2021 at 7:32 PM, gurn said:

A best selling work of fiction. Still not the thing you should use to try to back up an argument.

 

 

I'm curious about something.  What made you come to that conclusion about the Bible.? 

What is the time frame over which it was written? How many authors are there and how did it manage to survive that whole time frame which it was put together. And given the last book was written over 1900 years ago why is it still in print and believed as the word of God by millions today. 

If it is fiction as you say then that is truly amazing . 

[JM_]

22 minutes ago, erkayloomeh said:

I'm curious about something.  What made you come to that conclusion about the Bible.? 

What is the time frame over which it was written? How many authors are there and how did it manage to survive that whole time frame which it was put together. And given the last book was written over 1900 years ago why is it still in print and believed as the word of God by millions today. 

If it is fiction as you say then that is truly amazing . 

Thats not unique to Christianity, many world religions have ancient texts preserved. As well as oral traditions. 

 

Let me ask you this: do all the bible believers believe the entire book, or parts of it? if its just parts, is it all the same ones or do people differ on which ones to follow?wasn't the form of the bible we know today put together by consensus? it didn't appear in its current form originally. 

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by JM_

[I.Am.Ironman]

13 minutes ago, erkayloomeh said:

I'm curious about something.  What made you come to that conclusion about the Bible.? 

What is the time frame over which it was written? How many authors are there and how did it manage to survive that whole time frame which it was put together. And given the last book was written over 1900 years ago why is it still in print and believed as the word of God by millions today. 

If it is fiction as you say then that is truly amazing . 

It survived because of the prominence of religion. The bible today is not the same as it was 1000 years ago. It has been translated many times and re-intrepreted to fit whichever narrative serves the ruler at the time. King James ordered the bishops to formulate 'his' bible from the commonly used version at the time which was the Geneva Bible. I don't know what preceded the Geneva version.

 

Religion was a way to explain the unexplainable before significant scientific advancements/discoveries and it continues to be a vehicle for control. It seems interesting that religious leaders can pick and choose what words of God apply to them. As previously mentioned, the words of God include condoning slavery and anti-homosexual activity. Things that are largely unnacceptable in today's society. The pope even is a supporter of gay rights and obviously is not any supporter of slavery. When prompted, he and other religious leaders have simply said the bible is not to be taken literally. Not taken literally = fiction.

[JM_]

2 minutes ago, I.Am.Ironman said:

It survived because of the prominence of religion. The bible today is not the same as it was 1000 years ago. It has been translated many times and re-intrepreted to fit whichever narrative serves the ruler at the time. King James ordered the bishops to formulate 'his' bible from the commonly used version at the time which was the Geneva Bible. I don't know what preceded the Geneva version.

 

Religion was a way to explain the unexplainable before significant scientific advancements/discoveries and it continues to be a vehicle for control. It seems interesting that religious leaders can pick and choose what words of God apply to them. As previously mentioned, the words of God include condoning slavery and anti-homosexual activity. Things that are largely unnacceptable in today's society. The pope even is a supporter of gay rights and obviously is not any supporter of slavery. When prompted, he and other religious leaders have simply said the bible is not to be taken literally. Not taken literally = fiction.

I respect the fact that people have the right to their beliefs. What I don't respect is them trying to make me believe it, or have to live by it. 

 

It doesn't matter if Erkay believes the bible word for word, it doesn't give him or anyone else the right to enter a building unvaccinated, e.g. 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by JM_

[Gurn]

36 minutes ago, erkayloomeh said:

I'm curious about something.  What made you come to that conclusion about the Bible.? 

What is the time frame over which it was written? How many authors are there and how did it manage to survive that whole time frame which it was put together. And given the last book was written over 1900 years ago why is it still in print and believed as the word of God by millions today. 

If it is fiction as you say then that is truly amazing . 

Joel Shuster created the Superman comics in June 1938, Selling millions of copies. The books are more popular today than they were at the start,

Was fiction then, and over the years the story has changed in many ways, however it is still fiction.

Are you amazed at how popular Superman is?

[erkayloomeh]

22 minutes ago, JM_ said:

I respect the fact that people have the right to their beliefs. What I don't respect is them trying to make me believe it, or have to live by it. 

 

It doesn't matter if Erkay believes the bible word for word, it doesn't give him or anyone else the right to enter a building unvaccinated, e.g. 

 

 

Have I tried to make you believe what I believe any more than you have tried to make me believe what you do? 

I'm not a traveling preacher   In my life I am willing to share my faith if someone is interested. If they arent then I don't. 

It's why I usually don't linger long around here because its not well received. Like comparing a thousands year old book to a 80 year old superman comic. 

I'm not Muslim but I would never compare the Quran to a superman comic as that would be pretty offensive to them. 

To the best of my knowledge it's not up to you whether or not I enter a building unvaccinated. That's up to the lawmakers and I will abide by that. 

We must live in different worlds. Alot of Christians I know are vaccinated and alot of non Christians I know are refusing. 

It just seems like you think if your not vaccinated you must be a christian fanatic. 

That's not the case. My christian friends are pretty laid back except one. Some of my non christian friends are pretty pissed at our governments and our world direction in general and the whole covid thing. They are very anti vaccine.  

[JM_]

5 minutes ago, erkayloomeh said:

Have I tried to make you believe what I believe any more than you have tried to make me believe what you do? 

I'm not a traveling preacher   In my life I am willing to share my faith if someone is interested. If they arent then I don't. 

It's why I usually don't linger long around here because its not well received. Like comparing a thousands year old book to a 80 year old superman comic. 

I'm not Muslim but I would never compare the Quran to a superman comic as that would be pretty offensive to them. 

To the best of my knowledge it's not up to you whether or not I enter a building unvaccinated. That's up to the lawmakers and I will abide by that. 

We must live in different worlds. Alot of Christians I know are vaccinated and alot of non Christians I know are refusing. 

It just seems like you think if your not vaccinated you must be a christian fanatic. 

That's not the case. My christian friends are pretty laid back except one. Some of my non christian friends are pretty pissed at our governments and our world direction in general and the whole covid thing. They are very anti vaccine.  

Some Christians are trying to use a religious exemption to not get vaccinated and still go to work or not use a passport. Yeah, I would call that fanatical. 

 

The similarity between the comic and bible is they are both works of people. You might choose to think its not but there's nothing definitive that says it isn't either. It makes as much sense to make an exemption for vaccines on believing the bible as it does for believing you're a Jedi. 

 

And I'm not going after your personally btw, just discussing belief in general. 

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by JM_

[erkayloomeh]

4 minutes ago, JM_ said:

Some Christians are trying to use a religious exemption to not get vaccinated and still go to work or not use a passport. Yeah, I would call that fanatical. 

 

The similarity between the comic and bible is they are both works of people. You might choose to think its not but there's nothing definitive that says it isn't either. It makes as much sense to make an exemption for vaccines on believing the bible as it does for believing you're a Jedi. 

 

And I'm not going after your personally btw, just discussing belief in general. 

 

If I were not a Christian I think my approach to the vaccine would be the same. 

My sister's an RN and claims my mom died from her flu shot. It screwed up her immune system apparently.  Also have lost faith/trust in our governments.  

I'm glad you used the term "some" .  That's my point in not wanting us all painted with the same brush. 

If there was something definitive that unquestionably proved the bible was God inspired that would eliminate the term faith.

 

What's your perception on why some Christians are against the vaccine based on biblical beliefs.?

[JM_]

17 minutes ago, erkayloomeh said:

If I were not a Christian I think my approach to the vaccine would be the same. 

My sister's an RN and claims my mom died from her flu shot. It screwed up her immune system apparently. 

Sorry about your mom, its possible she was one of the rare instances of a very bad reaction. That doesn't mean its the wrong public health policy though, but thats not much comfort on a personal level I'm sure. 

 

17 minutes ago, erkayloomeh said:

 

Also have lost faith/trust in our governments.  

 

I find this fascinating when people say this. Our system in Canada has produced one of the best places to live on the planet, ever. We're one of the safest, most tolerant and free places there's ever been. What part have you lost faith in? 

 

17 minutes ago, erkayloomeh said:

I'm glad you used the term "some" .  That's my point in not wanting us all painted with the same brush. 

If there was something definitive that unquestionably proved the bible was God inspired that would eliminate the term faith.

 

Of course its "some". Christianity, like most religions, is a big basket of different beliefs. Thats why you can't use it as law or as a replacement for science. 

 

17 minutes ago, erkayloomeh said:

What's your perception on why some Christians are against the vaccine based on biblical beliefs.?

 

Its not my perception. https://bc.ctvnews.ca/allow-vaccine-passport-exemptions-or-face-legal-challenge-group-warns-b-c-government-1.5577671

 

It doesn't matter what particular belief they are claiming. Its a belief, which is your personal ideology. 

 

[DrJockitch]

1 hour ago, I.Am.Ironman said:

It survived because of the prominence of religion. The bible today is not the same as it was 1000 years ago. It has been translated many times and re-intrepreted to fit whichever narrative serves the ruler at the time. King James ordered the bishops to formulate 'his' bible from the commonly used version at the time which was the Geneva Bible. I don't know what preceded the Geneva version.

 

Religion was a way to explain the unexplainable before significant scientific advancements/discoveries and it continues to be a vehicle for control. It seems interesting that religious leaders can pick and choose what words of God apply to them. As previously mentioned, the words of God include condoning slavery and anti-homosexual activity. Things that are largely unnacceptable in today's society. The pope even is a supporter of gay rights and obviously is not any supporter of slavery. When prompted, he and other religious leaders have simply said the bible is not to be taken literally. Not taken literally = fiction.

Part of that is the manipulation of the text. One of the things King James did was take out a lot of the humanizing aspects about Jesus.  The idea was to stress the mystical and make Jesus less man more God. Talk about unforeseen tragic consequences. 
To argue of fiction or not I think is intentionally inflammatory.  I think the problem is the interpreter and the interpretation for those who want to take such a manipulated text as literal.  There is no question that Jesus existed and was a peace loving, wise Rabi in the true sense of the word. The hate and bigotry is more on those who hold the book in their hands while desecrating it with their actions. 
This is not a Christian only problem though clearly. Muslims have been painted with a horribly violent brush in North America because of the action of a few violent extremists. 
I am a scientist and very much not religious but do believe there is room for faith in science and scientists, I just believe in the balance, organized religion has given us more problems than benefits today.  I think there is great benefit to the sense of community but when it turns that around to a culture war the benefit no longer outweigh the problems. 

[Alflives]

10 minutes ago, JM_ said:

Sorry about your mom, its possible she was one of the rare instances of a very bad reaction. That doesn't mean its the wrong public health policy though, but thats not much comfort on a personal level I'm sure. 

 

 

I find this fascinating when people say this. Our system in Canada has produced one of the best places to live on the planet, ever. We're one of the safest, most tolerant and free places there's ever been. What part have you lost faith in? 

 

 

Of course its "some". Christianity, like most religions, is a big basket of different beliefs. Thats why you can't use it as law or as a replacement for science. 

 

 

Its not my perception. https://bc.ctvnews.ca/allow-vaccine-passport-exemptions-or-face-legal-challenge-group-warns-b-c-government-1.5577671

 

It doesn't matter what particular belief they are claiming. Its a belief, which is your personal ideology. 

 

I wonder if the Hamish people (or some of them) refuse vaccines based on their beliefs?  What about Jehovah"s  Witness?  I think there are some 3,000 sects of Christianity, and for sure some are of the extreme in their beliefs. But the vast majority of Christians would favor science.   

[erkayloomeh]

9 minutes ago, JM_ said:

Sorry about your mom, its possible she was one of the rare instances of a very bad reaction. That doesn't mean its the wrong public health policy though, but thats not much comfort on a personal level I'm sure. 

Thank you 

9 minutes ago, JM_ said:

 

 

I find this fascinating when people say this. Our system in Canada has produced one of the best places to live on the planet, ever. We're one of the safest, most tolerant and free places there's ever been. What part have you lost faith in? 

Yes it has.   But for how long?  Why should we have the debt where it is at?  and growing. No excuse for that in this country with all our natural resources and relatively low population. Extremely poor as far as I'm concerned. Where will that end up eventually? My perception of Trudeau is not so much that he's anti oil/pro environment but that hes anti Alberta. if your concerned about climate change and the effects of the oil industry then transition it out and make an alternate plan for the province instead of just turning off the tap and putting thousands out of work. Having a job means alot to people especially if they have a family to support. I remeber Justins dad getting on the train at cranbrook when i was a kid and giving people the finger as the train left. Unbelievable. I think that a leader should care about the people who they are leading. all of them. not just the ones in a particular area. If not, then you aren't a leader. 

9 minutes ago, JM_ said:

 

 

Of course its "some". Christianity, like most religions, is a big basket of different beliefs. Thats why you can't use it as law or as a replacement for science. 

 

 

Its not my perception. https://bc.ctvnews.ca/allow-vaccine-passport-exemptions-or-face-legal-challenge-group-warns-b-c-government-1.5577671

 

It doesn't matter what particular belief they are claiming. Its a belief, which is your personal ideology. 

 

Yes, I realize that. But what I was getting at was why they want a religious exemption in the first place. What is it in the faith that would make some not want it? it doesnt say anywhere in the bible don't get a vaccine. 

Here are my reasons. 1.  Dont know if it is safe? Hearing to many credible stories about negative affects. ( see Eric Clapton's YouTube video)  . It seems they came out with it awful quick compared to past vaccines. and my mom.... i hear you about that being a rare instances but is still on my mind. 

2. The effectiveness of the vaccine seems questionable to me.  If its effective why so many cases still coming out?  

3. Mistrust of our governments and there over reach. 

 

I work alone and am pretty much staying away from people. If i cant go to a restaurant or gym etc. i don't care    I don't want to negatively affect others, but also don't wat to take an injection either which is my right. So I'm trying to be respectful of others concerns and expect others to respect mine. 

[DrJockitch]

26 minutes ago, erkayloomeh said:

Thank you 

Yes it has.   But for how long?  Why should we have the debt where it is at?  and growing. No excuse for that in this country with all our natural resources and relatively low population. Extremely poor as far as I'm concerned. Where will that end up eventually? My perception of Trudeau is not so much that he's anti oil/pro environment but that hes anti Alberta. if your concerned about climate change and the effects of the oil industry then transition it out and make an alternate plan for the province instead of just turning off the tap and putting thousands out of work. Having a job means alot to people especially if they have a family to support. I remeber Justins dad getting on the train at cranbrook when i was a kid and giving people the finger as the train left. Unbelievable. I think that a leader should care about the people who they are leading. all of them. not just the ones in a particular area. If not, then you aren't a leader. 

Yes, I realize that. But what I was getting at was why they want a religious exemption in the first place. What is it in the faith that would make some not want it? it doesnt say anywhere in the bible don't get a vaccine. 

Here are my reasons. 1.  Dont know if it is safe? Hearing to many credible stories about negative affects. ( see Eric Clapton's YouTube video)  . It seems they came out with it awful quick compared to past vaccines. and my mom.... i hear you about that being a rare instances but is still on my mind. 

2. The effectiveness of the vaccine seems questionable to me.  If its effective why so many cases still coming out?  

3. Mistrust of our governments and there over reach. 

 

I work alone and am pretty much staying away from people. If i cant go to a restaurant or gym etc. i don't care    I don't want to negatively affect others, but also don't wat to take an injection either which is my right. So I'm trying to be respectful of others concerns and expect others to respect mine. 

1.  The ultimate truth about the two mRNA vaccines is that they are generally safe and certainly much safer than living in a pandemic as nasty as the Delta pandemic without being vaccinated.  There are a fairly high number of minor side effects, mostly fever, sore arm and headache.  The serious side effect profile is actually excellent with very rare serious cases.  It seems like more cases and more frequently than other vaccines because a number of factors including a massive vaccine roll-out that is immunizing hundreds of millions of people over a few months in an environment where there is a well organized very aggressive anti-vaxx movement that has been honing their online bullying skills.  Add to that massive disinformation campaigns out of China, Russia and Republicana.  These add up to people being worried about something they are in more danger driving too than getting.

As a general comment though mRNA vaccines have 15 years of study, this is just the first commercial use.  Was there an urgency to release yes, that urgency is called a pandemic.

2.  The effectiveness of these vaccines is striking, it truly is amazing how effective it has been.  Yes you can test positive after getting vaccine sometimes even get an active infection though this is exceedingly rare and almost all those cases are in the immunocompromised, morbidly obese or frail category.  Breakthrough infections are actually quite rare and there is lots of easily accessible data on that.  But the simple answer as to why so many cases are coming out is that they are in the unvaccinated and Delta is a nasty piece of work.

3.  Is it over-reach to protect your citizens?  I don't trust the government either but protecting citizens seems to be their core role.

 

I want to be very careful about commenting on your mom as none of this is meant with any pejorative intent but vaccines don't mess the immune system up they boost it.  The immune system has the capacity to handle 10,000 vaccines at once but man you would be uncomfortable.  Now some auto-immune issues can result from this but that is a different story.  I would be careful about making blanket health decisions based on the suspicions of your sister, especially ones that put you and yours at significant risk of illness and passing illness to others.  Regardless, comparing a flu shot to an mRNA vaccine is like comparing an apples to a red Ferrari.  One obvious similarity but nothing else is the same.

[Alflives]

19 minutes ago, erkayloomeh said:

Thank you 

Yes it has.   But for how long?  Why should we have the debt where it is at?  and growing. No excuse for that in this country with all our natural resources and relatively low population. Extremely poor as far as I'm concerned. Where will that end up eventually? My perception of Trudeau is not so much that he's anti oil/pro environment but that hes anti Alberta. if your concerned about climate change and the effects of the oil industry then transition it out and make an alternate plan for the province instead of just turning off the tap and putting thousands out of work. Having a job means alot to people especially if they have a family to support. I remeber Justins dad getting on the train at cranbrook when i was a kid and giving people the finger as the train left. Unbelievable. I think that a leader should care about the people who they are leading. all of them. not just the ones in a particular area. If not, then you aren't a leader. 

Yes, I realize that. But what I was getting at was why they want a religious exemption in the first place. What is it in the faith that would make some not want it? it doesnt say anywhere in the bible don't get a vaccine. 

Here are my reasons. 1.  Dont know if it is safe? Hearing to many credible stories about negative affects. ( see Eric Clapton's YouTube video)  . It seems they came out with it awful quick compared to past vaccines. and my mom.... i hear you about that being a rare instances but is still on my mind. 

2. The effectiveness of the vaccine seems questionable to me.  If its effective why so many cases still coming out?  

3. Mistrust of our governments and there over reach. 

 

I work alone and am pretty much staying away from people. If i cant go to a restaurant or gym etc. i don't care    I don't want to negatively affect others, but also don't wat to take an injection either which is my right. So I'm trying to be respectful of others concerns and expect others to respect mine. 

It's likely Sars Cov 2 moves to an endemic stage.  There just might be no hiding from this virus.  The best protection is to get vaccinated. 

[HighOnHockey]

On 9/11/2021 at 6:06 AM, DrJockitch said:

I have been hearing this kind of crap from patients. 
New World Order, One-World government…
amazing what crazy theories people will cling on to because they are having temper tantrums about a virus with a nearly 100% effective treatment. 
‘I don’t want a sore arm and don’t care who has to die to keep my arm from being sore’

Also kind of amazing how people refuse to consider other people's perspectives and and make up idiotic beliefs for them in order to assume they are simply idiots.