[GDT/PGT - Preseason] Vancouver @ Calgary Friday, Oct. 1/21 6:00 PM PST

[khay]

3 hours ago, stawns said:

Rathbone was very not good last night.......I don't want to.sat terrible because he wasn't, but he wasn't far off either.  

 

OJ was probably their best dman last night and has been solid in every game.

 

9 hours ago, canuckleheads fan said:

Not sure what game you were watching, Gudreau was Rathbone's responsibility on the first goal, Tkachuk was his responsibility on the third goal, I'm not sure who Rathbone thought his man was, but Tkachuk scored unmolested. He really struggled against Calgary's #1 line. When the play broke down on the second goal, Rathbone was lost in no-mans-land, not close enough to check the player, and just far enough away to screen Demko. Yes, he's a great skater and a good passer, but in the two games I've watched, he's awful defensively, which is bad when your position is defenseman. Juolevi isn't flashy, but his defensive game and positioning were for the most part solid. He looked really good on the PK, and that stop on the 2-on1 was Edleresk. He needs more work on his skating, but of the LHD in this game, Olli was the best.

Not disagreeing regarding Rathbone's defensive game.

 

My comment was regarding Rathbone's offensive game. He showed what he can do with the puck. I didn't comment on the defensive side of the game in my post -- I think he needs to work on his game and hence to the AHL is what I said.

 

And agree on OJ. He did his job on the PK. He wasn't perfect but he was solid. Just the fact that he can kill penalties and Rathbone can't, is enough reason for him to make the team IMO.

 

[khay]

3 hours ago, stawns said:

I'm also not sure why all the hand wringing over podz.  There was nothing wrong with his game last night, or the game before.  He plays a very disciplined game and he just wants to make sure the coaching knows the can trust him defensively.  He's top 9 ready, no question 

The first goal, he was way out of position chasing the puck, leading to the trailer to receive the puck and make perfect pass to Gaudreau for the goal. 

 

I'm not going to say he's terrible because he wasn't. But he really did nothing of significance last night playing alongside Miler and Garland.

 

If we go based on his game last night, and remove the fact that he is highly touted prospect, he doesn't make the team.

 

I don't think he is ready for the scoring role is all I'm going to say.

 

Like you, I'm really rooting for the kid and hope that he can find a role with the team right away like Hoglander last season. Maybe his game is better suited on the 3rd or 4th line. 

 

[khay]

9 hours ago, canuckleheads fan said:

Not sure what game you were watching, Gudreau was Rathbone's responsibility on the first goal, Tkachuk was his responsibility on the third goal, I'm not sure who Rathbone thought his man was, but Tkachuk scored unmolested. He really struggled against Calgary's #1 line. When the play broke down on the second goal, Rathbone was lost in no-mans-land, not close enough to check the player, and just far enough away to screen Demko. Yes, he's a great skater and a good passer, but in the two games I've watched, he's awful defensively, which is bad when your position is defenseman. Juolevi isn't flashy, but his defensive game and positioning were for the most part solid. He looked really good on the PK, and that stop on the 2-on1 was Edleresk. He needs more work on his skating, but of the LHD in this game, Olli was the best.

I agree with assessment on OJ's solid defensive game and I do agree that Rathbone needs work on his defensive game but are you really blaming Rathbone for that goal? 

 

Gaudreau beat Schenn wide with his quick feet and shot the puck, which went around the boards and Rathbone was the closest player to it so he just tried to get to the puck. If it's anyone's fault, it should be Podkolzin. Although he back checked, he was just circling around not knowing where to go in a no man's land. So Lindholm was able to get the puck unimpeded and make the pass to Gaudreau. If Podkolzin covered his man or at least blocked the shooting/passing lane, Schenn would have been able to cover Gaudreau but because Podkolzin didn't, Schenn had to defend the front of the net. Lindholm saw wide open Gaudreau, made the pass and Rathbone was late because well, puck travels faster than anyone can possibly skate.

 

It was 1-on-3 (1 Flame vs 3 Canucks) but with poor positioning by Podkolzin, it quickly turned into 2-on-1. I don't think Rathbone should be blamed for that goal, well not majority of the blame anyways.

 

 

[HockeyHarry]

Go Canucks Go

[DS4quality]

This game was a good example of why the Canucks need players like MacEwan, Gadjovich and Lockwood to take a step forward. Can't be getting bullied by the Flames. But they need to stay disciplined.  I'm all for keeping the 3 of these guys until sutter and Motte are ready.

[CanucksJay]

6 hours ago, NHTyrany said:

So true, I would be less concerned if the those looking to stick would have been grittier. It was a  soft game of shiny-- the new NHL i guess

 

Also forgot that Hamonic and Sutter and Motte weren't playing either. 

 

That's missing

3 top 6 players (Horvat, Boeser, Petterson) 

2 bottom 6 players (Sutter and Motte) 

2 Top 4 Dman (Hughes, Hamonic) 

 

That's 7 of the 18 roster players not dressed... 

 

Oh man are we ever a deep team this year

[wallstreetamigo]

4 hours ago, Junkyard Dog said:

I don’t see how that’s the case or common sense at all. You stated you’re disappointed with the systems we play when we’ve played 3 games. 2 of which we had the much more worse lineup and the other we had the better lineup. 
 

You need to explain and elaborate how you can determine that these are the exact same systems with the players we have out there. You need to explain why the how you can tell that with the difference in talent we’ve seen with the teams we faced. 
 

I don’t understand how you can make the judgment so quickly and be be disappointed if the systems we play when we haven’t seen an NHL lineup face another NHL lineup with these supposed systems. That to me seems like the best way to concretely determine how the systems are, when there’s a level playing feel and no handicap to either team due to talent differences in the lineups. 
 

Rather than me continuing questioning your reasoning perhaps you can explain your reasoning a bit more precisely. I’d rather understand your POV than go in circles like this. 

I have been pretty precise but will certainly try again. The main point to understand in what I am saying is that who is on the ice is irrelevant in terms of how the team is being asked to play. It has an impact on the efficiency of getting the job done of course but that’s the point in the preseason. It doesn’t change how the coach expects the team to play though. Green is simply trying to see who can play what role in his system. He doesn’t change the system because he has a bunch of AHL guys in his preseason lineup. That’s just not what the preseason is used for.

 

I think they are trying to adjust some things so it’s not “exactly” the same, which I never said. I said it was largely the same style both offensively and defensively, which individually and collectively did not mesh well last year and with all the roster changes will probably fit even more poorly with this group.

 

Offensively this team is happy to give up the puck on entry but also doesn’t really have the type of aggressive forecheck to go get it back. Transitioning the puck from our own zone through the neutral zone quickly and efficiently was an issue last year and has been an issue again. This is far more a puck possession, speedy, skilled roster than last years. Having them play dump and chase is a huge waste of their skill.

 

Defensively the team is very passive in our zone. That hasn’t changed a lot from last year unfortunately. Forward support defensively and on the breakout looks pretty much the same as it did last year. And it was largely a tire fire then. The ineffectiveness of the breakout falls largely on the forwards as they are not consistently in good spots to break out cleanly with speed through the neutral zone. That essentially forces the dump and chase entry because they can’t push opposing D back through the neutral zone. The entire process is consistently looking like it did last year. Disjointed and ineffective.

 

I accept that 4th line battles are a big part of Green’s roster spot focus and typically that is the style expected of our 4th line. So those players playing that way is ok for evaluation. Having the whole team play that way though suggests it’s strategy not necessity.

 

Baumgartner should have been fired and Shaw should have taken over the defense completely. That is only more obvious now without a true top 4 quality defensive dman on the right side, especially with Hughes, OEL, and Rathbone on the left. 
 

I am hoping that as we see more of a regular lineup we will see a bigger adjustment in style. And that may happen. I am just saying at this point it looks a lot like last year in terms of what the coaches want the team to do and how they want them to play.

 

 

[Toyotasfan]

With the likes of Lucic , Gudbranson and Zadorov , add in the big bodychecks Coleman can throw , that weasel Tkachuck is going to be acting like he’s 10 feet tall this year. Big Sutter teams are slow , but they are going to be hard to play against. Washington was intimidating last year with Wilson, Chara, Dillon and Hathaway. The Flames and the Islanders are amoung this years grinders. Schenn and MacEwan need to be in the lineup against the Flames this year to protect Petey and Huggy bear.

[Junkyard Dog]

13 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

I have been pretty precise but will certainly try again. The main point to understand in what I am saying is that who is on the ice is irrelevant in terms of how the team is being asked to play. It has an impact on the efficiency of getting the job done of course but that’s the point in the preseason. It doesn’t change how the coach expects the team to play though. Green is simply trying to see who can play what role in his system. He doesn’t change the system because he has a bunch of AHL guys in his preseason lineup. That’s just not what the preseason is used for.

 

I think they are trying to adjust some things so it’s not “exactly” the same, which I never said. I said it was largely the same style both offensively and defensively, which individually and collectively did not mesh well last year and with all the roster changes will probably fit even more poorly with this group.

 

Offensively this team is happy to give up the puck on entry but also doesn’t really have the type of aggressive forecheck to go get it back. Transitioning the puck from our own zone through the neutral zone quickly and efficiently was an issue last year and has been an issue again. This is far more a puck possession, speedy, skilled roster than last years. Having them play dump and chase is a huge waste of their skill.

 

Defensively the team is very passive in our zone. That hasn’t changed a lot from last year unfortunately. Forward support defensively and on the breakout looks pretty much the same as it did last year. And it was largely a tire fire then. The ineffectiveness of the breakout falls largely on the forwards as they are not consistently in good spots to break out cleanly with speed through the neutral zone. That essentially forces the dump and chase entry because they can’t push opposing D back through the neutral zone. The entire process is consistently looking like it did last year. Disjointed and ineffective.

 

I accept that 4th line battles are a big part of Green’s roster spot focus and typically that is the style expected of our 4th line. So those players playing that way is ok for evaluation. Having the whole team play that way though suggests it’s strategy not necessity.

 

Baumgartner should have been fired and Shaw should have taken over the defense completely. That is only more obvious now without a true top 4 quality defensive dman on the right side, especially with Hughes, OEL, and Rathbone on the left. 
 

I am hoping that as we see more of a regular lineup we will see a bigger adjustment in style. And that may happen. I am just saying at this point it looks a lot like last year in terms of what the coaches want the team to do and how they want them to play.

 

 

 

15 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

I have been pretty precise but will certainly try again. The main point to understand in what I am saying is that who is on the ice is irrelevant in terms of how the team is being asked to play. It has an impact on the efficiency of getting the job done of course but that’s the point in the preseason. It doesn’t change how the coach expects the team to play though. Green is simply trying to see who can play what role in his system. He doesn’t change the system because he has a bunch of AHL guys in his preseason lineup. That’s just not what the preseason is used for.

 

I think they are trying to adjust some things so it’s not “exactly” the same, which I never said. I said it was largely the same style both offensively and defensively, which individually and collectively did not mesh well last year and with all the roster changes will probably fit even more poorly with this group.

 

Offensively this team is happy to give up the puck on entry but also doesn’t really have the type of aggressive forecheck to go get it back. Transitioning the puck from our own zone through the neutral zone quickly and efficiently was an issue last year and has been an issue again. This is far more a puck possession, speedy, skilled roster than last years. Having them play dump and chase is a huge waste of their skill.

 

Defensively the team is very passive in our zone. That hasn’t changed a lot from last year unfortunately. Forward support defensively and on the breakout looks pretty much the same as it did last year. And it was largely a tire fire then. The ineffectiveness of the breakout falls largely on the forwards as they are not consistently in good spots to break out cleanly with speed through the neutral zone. That essentially forces the dump and chase entry because they can’t push opposing D back through the neutral zone. The entire process is consistently looking like it did last year. Disjointed and ineffective.

 

I accept that 4th line battles are a big part of Green’s roster spot focus and typically that is the style expected of our 4th line. So those players playing that way is ok for evaluation. Having the whole team play that way though suggests it’s strategy not necessity.

 

Baumgartner should have been fired and Shaw should have taken over the defense completely. That is only more obvious now without a true top 4 quality defensive dman on the right side, especially with Hughes, OEL, and Rathbone on the left. 
 

I am hoping that as we see more of a regular lineup we will see a bigger adjustment in style. And that may happen. I am just saying at this point it looks a lot like last year in terms of what the coaches want the team to do and how they want them to play.

 

 

You’re still not taking Into account the players we’ve iced and whether or not they’ve can play well at the NHL level and with the systems though. The entirety of preseason is to determine that and last game proved that some of them don’t belong. 
 

Last game there was a lot more scrubby mistakes, by players who aren’t NHL regulars facing a more suited NHL lineup. Players looked lost. Even Miller admitted that they weren’t use to each other on the PP. I saw Dickensen on multiple occasions loudly/firmly direct teammates during play. 
 

The gap in talent on both rosters was the difference in last nights game. The last 10 minutes proved that. A lot of players looked like amateurs. That’s more of the players than anything. 
 

We weren’t an NHL team last night. More than half of our regulars were out, including our best players. You say we have a better more skilled team but we’ve yet to see them altogether. 
 

Fact of the matter is we haven’t seen how our actual NHL lineup plays(facing another NHL lineup)with the systems in place or even together at all. So we can’t really a grip of how they work, or what changes might have been made and how the players play as a group. 
 

Overall I feel like your judgements are a little premature. You’re correct in saying our AHLers/Depth guys/young players and don’t play the way the systems well and how we want to see as a group vs a better group of talent than them if that was the point your making.

My point is that we were so bad due to a talent gap and these sort of depth players/AHLers not looking like they belong that it is almost impossible to gauge how the systems are due to a lack of NHL talent playing within those systems facing other NHL talent. 

 

I don’t like Baumer either for that matter. 
 

Nevertheless I see where we differ in opinion, in the way we have viewed the games that have been played.  You fault the systems more so than the lack of talent and I see the lack of talent and individual play more so at the forefront of our problems during those games.
 

Our difference in opinion there doesn’t look like it will change much. Agree to disagree I suppose.

[wallstreetamigo]

16 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

 

You’re still not taking Into account the players we’ve iced and whether or not they’ve can play well at the NHL level and with the systems though. The entirety of preseason is to determine that and last game proved that some of them don’t belong. 
 

Last game there was a lot more scrubby mistakes, by players who aren’t NHL regulars facing a more suited NHL lineup. Players looked lost. Even Miller admitted that they weren’t use to each other on the PP. I saw Dickensen on multiple occasions loudly/firmly direct teammates during play. 
 

The gap in talent on both rosters was the difference in last nights game. The last 10 minutes proved that. A lot of players looked like amateurs. That’s more of the players than anything. 
 

We weren’t an NHL team last night. More than half of our regulars were out, including our best players. You say we have a better more skilled team but we’ve yet to see them altogether. 
 

Fact of the matter is we haven’t seen how our actual NHL lineup plays(facing another NHL lineup)with the systems in place or even together at all. So we can’t really a grip of how they work, or what changes might have been made and how the players play as a group. 
 

Overall I feel like your judgements are a little premature. You’re correct in saying our AHLers/Depth guys/young players and don’t play the way the systems well and how we want to see as a group vs a better group of talent than them if that was the point your making.

My point is that we were so bad due to a talent gap and these sort of depth players/AHLers not looking like they belong that it is almost impossible to gauge how the systems are due to a lack of NHL talent playing within those systems facing other NHL talent. 

 

I don’t like Baumer either for that matter. 
 

Nevertheless I see where we differ in opinion, in the way we have viewed the games that have been played.  You fault the systems more so than the lack of talent and I see the lack of talent and individual play more so at the forefront of our problems during those games.
 

Our difference in opinion there doesn’t look like it will change much. Agree to disagree I suppose.

I fault both the systems and the lack of talent though. The coaches expecting the team to play a certain way and the players being incapable of doing so have both been evident.

 

My point is that even if we iced our starting lineup, the style they are being asked to play needs to be significantly changed or we will see more of last years inconsistencies.

 

The preseason is for testing things out. I guess my hope was they would actually test out a new offensive and defensive style since the roster is so much better overall.

 

Other than a very small handful of players on the ice against Calgary, most of those players are actually better than what we iced a lot of last season. Even the bubble guys are better than regulars we used last year. 

[wallstreetamigo]

The other thing that I think has been an issue for awhile in Vancouver dating back pre Travis Green is that the style of play offensively and defensively has contributed a significant amount to the injury troubles the team has every year. Some of that is unavoidable and unrelated of course, but that passive D, allowing lots of shots that need to be blocked, and getting blasted into the boards by the opposing forecheck has had an effect. Even that consistent dump and chase style offensively that has led to possession turnovers and counterattacks forces players to have to do more defending which is much harder on them.

 

I hope we see a relatively healthy season because I think if a few players can step up their game and the usual suspects can stay healthy and just play their game effectively, this team could surprise everyone.
 

 

[Junkyard Dog]

25 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

I fault both the systems and the lack of talent though. The coaches expecting the team to play a certain way and the players being incapable of doing so have both been evident.

 

My point is that even if we iced our starting lineup, the style they are being asked to play needs to be significantly changed or we will see more of last years inconsistencies.

 

The preseason is for testing things out. I guess my hope was they would actually test out a new offensive and defensive style since the roster is so much better overall.

 

Other than a very small handful of players on the ice against Calgary, most of those players are actually better than what we iced a lot of last season. Even the bubble guys are better than regulars we used last year. 

I see. I still see the lack of talent more prominently. 
 

I don’t see that personally in terms of the roster we iced. We had one offensive line in Miller’s line with Garland and a rookie in Pod, who have never played together up until this point. Hog and Dickinsen on other separate lines playing with lesser talent. Myers was our only regular D. Everyone else were AHLers, young players and guys fighting for extra spots. 
 

 

Last year we had Horvat’s line, Boeser and a better defense than that which is telling because our D-core was crap last year save for a couple guys. Also missing the overpaid guys who are still 4th line regulars at the NHL level like Sutter, Beagle, Roussel.
 

A lot of the guys we saw last night I wouldn’t even consider as extras if we were to base them off last nights performance alone. 

 

I am still holding out judgements until I see the team play with a full roster facing another one which is likely later in the preseason. Personally gonna keep a neutral mind for most things besides individual play until then. 

Edited October 2, 2021 by Junkyard Dog

[wallstreetamigo]

29 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

I see. I still see the lack of talent more prominently. 
 

I don’t see that personally in terms of the roster we iced. We had one offensive line in Miller’s line with Garland and a rookie in Pod, who have never played together up until this point. Hog and Dickinsen on other separate lines playing with lesser talent. Myers was our only regular D. Everyone else were AHLers, young players and guys fighting for extra spots. 
 

 

Last year we had Horvat’s line, Boeser and a better defense than that which is telling because our D-core was crap last year save for a couple guys. Also missing the overpaid guys who are still 4th line regulars at the NHL level like Sutter, Beagle, Roussel.
 

A lot of the guys we saw last night I wouldn’t even consider as extras if we were to base them off last nights performance alone. 

 

I am still holding out judgements until I see the team play with a full roster facing another one which is likely later in the preseason. Personally gonna keep a neutral mind for most things besides individual play until then. 

We had guys like Vesey, Boyd, Chatfield, etc playing regularly last year, not to mention several ineffective or injured vets like Beagle, Roussel, Player Name. In most cases further up the lineup than any of the bubble guys would be. 
 

There are very few on that lineup list I would not rather have than guys like those.

 

I understand your point and don’t disagree about the talent level but you are really missing mine. Even with a bunch of AHL players, it does not change the way the coach wants the team to play offensively and defensively. And so far the limitations of Green and Baumgartner in sticking with last years style has largely shone through.

 

I hope you are right and the underlying systems and style will miraculously change on a fundamental level once it’s a more set lineup. Not sure I have ever really seen that happen in an NHL preseason to the extent it would need to but I don’t think we are even arguing opposite points. We are arguing different points altogether.

 

 

[wallstreetamigo]

Who the hell is “Player Name”? I typed E R I K S S O N

[RogersTowell]

9 hours ago, stawns said:

Rathbone was very not good last night.......I don't want to.sat terrible because he wasn't, but he wasn't far off either.  

 

OJ was probably their best dman last night and has been solid in every game.

I agree.  He had some nice moves with the puck and beat a few guys, but it never went past that.  There wasn't a lot of vision to find the open man or open up the ice demonstrated.  A few big gaffes in his own end as well.

9 hours ago, stawns said:

I'm also not sure why all the hand wringing over podz.  There was nothing wrong with his game last night, or the game before.  He plays a very disciplined game and he just wants to make sure the coaching knows the can trust him defensively.  He's top 9 ready, no question 

I think you and I see the same game.   I'm not sure what some of them are watching, or if they are just looking at the stat sheet or maybe a few highlights.  Podz did more than either of his line mates tonight, which wasn't very hard.  Miller and Garland were not very effective overall.  Podz worked hard on the boards, made a couple of smart passes and positioned himself well for the one timer.

 

I agree that OJ had a pretty solid game tonight as well.

[stawns]

24 minutes ago, RogersTowell said:

I agree.  He had some nice moves with the puck and beat a few guys, but it never went past that.  There wasn't a lot of vision to find the open man or open up the ice demonstrated.  A few big gaffes in his own end as well.

I think you and I see the same game.   I'm not sure what some of them are watching, or if they are just looking at the stat sheet or maybe a few highlights.  Podz did more than either of his line mates tonight, which wasn't very hard.  Miller and Garland were not very effective overall.  Podz worked hard on the boards, made a couple of smart passes and positioned himself well for the one timer.

 

I agree that OJ had a pretty solid game tonight as well.

I think they're going to struggle to find someone Miller has chemistry with. 

 

[wallstreetamigo]

2 minutes ago, stawns said:

I think they're going to struggle to find someone Miller has chemistry with. 

 

He needs to be on the wing. Way more effective there IMO.

[stawns]

2 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

He needs to be on the wing. Way more effective there IMO.

This needs to be the year petey becomes and NHL an, imo, which frees up Miller to move around the lineup

[wallstreetamigo]

15 minutes ago, stawns said:

This needs to be the year petey becomes and NHL an, imo, which frees up Miller to move around the lineup

I agree. It’s a good time for that to happen.

[Pure961089]

3 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

I have been pretty precise but will certainly try again. The main point to understand in what I am saying is that who is on the ice is irrelevant in terms of how the team is being asked to play. It has an impact on the efficiency of getting the job done of course but that’s the point in the preseason. It doesn’t change how the coach expects the team to play though. Green is simply trying to see who can play what role in his system. He doesn’t change the system because he has a bunch of AHL guys in his preseason lineup. That’s just not what the preseason is used for.

 

I think they are trying to adjust some things so it’s not “exactly” the same, which I never said. I said it was largely the same style both offensively and defensively, which individually and collectively did not mesh well last year and with all the roster changes will probably fit even more poorly with this group.

 

Offensively this team is happy to give up the puck on entry but also doesn’t really have the type of aggressive forecheck to go get it back. Transitioning the puck from our own zone through the neutral zone quickly and efficiently was an issue last year and has been an issue again. This is far more a puck possession, speedy, skilled roster than last years. Having them play dump and chase is a huge waste of their skill.

 

Defensively the team is very passive in our zone. That hasn’t changed a lot from last year unfortunately. Forward support defensively and on the breakout looks pretty much the same as it did last year. And it was largely a tire fire then. The ineffectiveness of the breakout falls largely on the forwards as they are not consistently in good spots to break out cleanly with speed through the neutral zone. That essentially forces the dump and chase entry because they can’t push opposing D back through the neutral zone. The entire process is consistently looking like it did last year. Disjointed and ineffective.

 

I accept that 4th line battles are a big part of Green’s roster spot focus and typically that is the style expected of our 4th line. So those players playing that way is ok for evaluation. Having the whole team play that way though suggests it’s strategy not necessity.

 

Baumgartner should have been fired and Shaw should have taken over the defense completely. That is only more obvious now without a true top 4 quality defensive dman on the right side, especially with Hughes, OEL, and Rathbone on the left. 
 

I am hoping that as we see more of a regular lineup we will see a bigger adjustment in style. And that may happen. I am just saying at this point it looks a lot like last year in terms of what the coaches want the team to do and how they want them to play.

 

 

Great post. A lot of people on this message board have an exaggerated view of the significance of preseason games.  It’s for getting the new players familiar with Green’s systems.