[Rumour] J.T. Miller Trade/Contract Talks

[-DLC-]

People still feel "collecting assets" means building a winner. It doesn't always, ask Edmonton if it's a sure fire recipe.

 

Teams have to have chemistry, leadership and other elements that, if lacking, mean you may have a bunch of really good individuals playing as such.

 

Teams that do win usually have more than just a bunch of young (stud) prospects....they have guys LIKE JT who hate losing and have the skill, experience (yes it matters) and size to lead that charge. Some of these winning teams who do buy low sell high and accumulate assets also haven't had immediate success...it's been a journey to get there and not a matter of slot in and win. And they all have big, strong physical players who are also a threat out there. JT is that.

 

JT is building the kind of culture you need for a cup....finesse, speed and skill are great but playoffs need something in addition to that...snarl and strength. If you don't notice a bit of a difference/edge with him in the line up, you're not watching closely enough. He hates losing and that stuff spreads. 

 

 

 

[Alflives]

32 minutes ago, stawns said:

If his contract were $7m+, I might agree.  But the fact you're getting a too 10 scorer for, basically, the same cap hit as Garland for this playoff run, all next season and one more cup run is a pretty good return for a team on the cusp

Yup.  Miller's trade value will never be as high than before Monday.  

 

[stawns]

9 minutes ago, -DLC- said:

People still feel "collecting assets" means building a winner. It doesn't always, ask Edmonton if it's a sure fire recipe.

 

Teams have to have chemistry, leadership and other elements that, if lacking, mean you may have a bunch of really good individuals playing as such.

 

Teams that do win usually have more than just a bunch of young (stud) prospects....they have guys LIKE JT who hate losing and have the skill, experience (yes it matters) and size to lead that charge. Some of these winning teams who do buy low sell high and accumulate assets also haven't had immediate success...it's been a journey to get there and not a matter of slot in and win. And they all have big, strong physical players who are also a threat out there. JT is that.

 

JT is building the kind of culture you need for a cup....finesse, speed and skill are great but playoffs need something in addition to that...snarl and strength. If you don't notice a bit of a difference/edge with him in the line up, you're not watching closely enough. He hates losing and that stuff spreads. 

 

 

 

Again with the Miller mythology.  If he hates losing so much, how come it keeps happening to him?

[Gurn]

37 minutes ago, -DLC- said:

ask Edmonton if it's a sure fire recipe.

 

It may not be a sure fire way, but they are above us in the standings.

[Alflives]

40 minutes ago, -DLC- said:

People still feel "collecting assets" means building a winner. It doesn't always, ask Edmonton if it's a sure fire recipe.

 

Teams have to have chemistry, leadership and other elements that, if lacking, mean you may have a bunch of really good individuals playing as such.

 

Teams that do win usually have more than just a bunch of young (stud) prospects....they have guys LIKE JT who hate losing and have the skill, experience (yes it matters) and size to lead that charge. Some of these winning teams who do buy low sell high and accumulate assets also haven't had immediate success...it's been a journey to get there and not a matter of slot in and win. And they all have big, strong physical players who are also a threat out there. JT is that.

 

JT is building the kind of culture you need for a cup....finesse, speed and skill are great but playoffs need something in addition to that...snarl and strength. If you don't notice a bit of a difference/edge with him in the line up, you're not watching closely enough. He hates losing and that stuff spreads. 

 

 

 

Is there any other way though?  Diving to the bottom and feeding on top draft picks for several years, then (when collecting the key pieces to winning) bobbing up again to compete is the way.  And when the young core is in place then provide key supporting pieces.  I'm thinking Miller is best as a supporting piece for a top team than a key piece for us.  

Edited March 19, 2022 by Alflives

[DrJockitch]

6 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Is there any other way though?  Diving to the bottom and feeding on top draft picks for several years, then (when collecting the key pieces to winning) bobbing up again to compete is the way.  

I think there is definitely something to having a cycle that involves selling assets and dropping down near bottom of league while cutting budget. Then as you build up and evaluate youth and prime assets, starting to climb and complement the core you build through trades and UFAs. 
Hard part is avoiding the pratfalls of the Edmonton’s and Buffalo’s that struggle to get out of the hole that they dig. 
Most Canadian teams don’t have the patience for this though and try shortcuts. Benning’s prime MO was shortcuts. Rushing in prospects, filling up with UFAs at way to much money and term. 

Edited March 19, 2022 by DrJockitch

[JayDangles]

3 hours ago, spook007 said:

Can't compare the two deal much...

LE was playing 2nd line and 3 Line minutes without much production.

OEL is our top D-man atm... 

But yes this is exactly the dilemma... If we sign Miller longterm, and have to give EP and Bo raises as well, it leaves very little to play with, trying to improve the team...Brock won't  be enough.

Well there is a major similarity to Player Name and Millers situation. Both are/were looking to sign long term with their latest year being their highest production. We saw how paying a player max money based only on one year of high production can turn out. 

Miller has not proven in any way that he can be a consistent 90 point player..yet he will be looking to cash in like he is.

[KirkSave]

I absolutely love what Miller brings to the table and I have been hoping we could find a way to keep him, should he decide to reup in Vancouver. However, I now think we need to move Miller at some point, whether it be at this deadline or in the offseason, along with another vet or 2. We have plenty of assests other teams would want (Miller, Myers, Boeser, Garland, Horvat). I'd prefer moving out contracts like Poolman, Hammer and Dicky but we could be hard pressed to move those players at their price points.

 

I want the new MGMT to accomplish their goal of creating an organization that is a perennial playoff club and can reach the peak. We are a fringe playoff team as it stands now. So I am on board with whatever MGMT thinks it takes. If that means moving on from Miller or a few other of our solid players, so be it. Stanley Cup is the dream and hard decisions come along with trying to attain it.

 

These are the teams I see as potential trading partners for some our assetts (better players). BOS, STL, COL, NYR, PIT, CAR, MIN. Very curious to see what Allvin and his team come up with over the next few days.

Edited March 19, 2022 by KirkSave

[MeanSeanBean]

48 minutes ago, -DLC- said:

People still feel "collecting assets" means building a winner. It doesn't always, ask Edmonton if it's a sure fire recipe.

 

Teams have to have chemistry, leadership and other elements that, if lacking, mean you may have a bunch of really good individuals playing as such.

 

Teams that do win usually have more than just a bunch of young (stud) prospects....they have guys LIKE JT who hate losing and have the skill, experience (yes it matters) and size to lead that charge. Some of these winning teams who do buy low sell high and accumulate assets also haven't had immediate success...it's been a journey to get there and not a matter of slot in and win. And they all have big, strong physical players who are also a threat out there. JT is that.

 

JT is building the kind of culture you need for a cup....finesse, speed and skill are great but playoffs need something in addition to that...snarl and strength. If you don't notice a bit of a difference/edge with him in the line up, you're not watching closely enough. He hates losing and that stuff spreads. 

 

 

 

Can counter point that many of the best teams did collect assets. The front runners this year's are the 2 Florida teams, the Avs, maybe the Knights or Rangers.. they all were bad and collected assets (minis the Knights but that's a different conversation)

 

If we look at the Avs, they acquired NK to supplement an excelling young core and will likely let him walk now that he has earned his money. The Florida teams have an embarrassment of riches. Ranger have Kreider as their Miller, but only pay him 6.5 not the 8-9 it will take sign Miller. Vegas is trying to win now and not thinking about the future when they signed Stone.

 

The question I guess to me when it comes to Miller, is can the Canucks win in the next 2 or 3 years. I don't think so personally. I think that's when our window opens and we will have 3 or so years to push hard then. It's hard for me to see a 33 year old Miller still leading the team if everything goes will with this team, especially if he's making 1/10 of our cap hit.

 

Miller has been unreal for us and his value goes beyond what he provides on the ice. I guess my hope is the values can be passed onto the leadership team moving forward in Bo, Hughes, and Petey.

 

I could be totally wrong, and I'll obviously support the team with any decision they make... But the logistics of signing Miller to a 9x8 (which is what I think a Vancouver contract looks like) seems rough to me.

Edited March 19, 2022 by Shayster007

[spook007]

22 minutes ago, JayDangles said:

Well there is a major similarity to Player Name and Millers situation. Both are/were looking to sign long term with their latest year being their highest production. We saw how paying a player max money based only on one year of high production can turn out. 

Miller has not proven in any way that he can be a consistent 90 point player..yet he will be looking to cash in like he is.

Absolutely... agree 100%

[JM_]

1 hour ago, stawns said:

Again with the Miller mythology.  If he hates losing so much, how come it keeps happening to him?

you can do better than this. 

 

I get you are passionate about the two guys you really dislike on this team and thats fine, but the Miller fans on here don't have a mythology about him, thats being built up by the folks that have locked themselves into the idea that there's only one way forward with this team.

[JM_]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

Is there any other way though?  Diving to the bottom and feeding on top draft picks for several years, then (when collecting the key pieces to winning) bobbing up again to compete is the way.  And when the young core is in place then provide key supporting pieces.  I'm thinking Miller is best as a supporting piece for a top team than a key piece for us.  

Buffalo says 'hi' 

[aGENT]

8 hours ago, filthycanuck said:

I dont think his value drops as people may seem to believe. That 2 playoff runs is way overblown. Theres going to be more demand for JT in the summer when teams know their cap situation

 

That being said, the games this weekend will play a very big hand on what Alvin and Co. do on Monday

 

8 hours ago, N4ZZY said:

I agree that this weekend is the turning point of the season. Lose these games, and I think management starts making calls about some players that they’re probably moving out. Brock’s timing couldn’t have been worse. I wonder if they’re waiting until the off-season to sign or something or if he’s demanding his 7.5M, and not moving too much from that. If he is, then I can see him being moved at the deadline. 

 

People putting too much stock in a couple games IMO. Management knows what this team is, what it lacks and what it needs. A couple of games doesn't really change that.

 

IMO, it's all about what offers are, or aren't, on the table. If we're not getting value, we have no urgency to move anyone outside of Motte (and even then I'd let him walk if all we're getting is 4th rounders or something), just for the sake of moving them.

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, JM_ said:

Buffalo says 'hi' 

Is there a Cup winner in the Cap era that hasn't had key pieces they got from the top of the draft?  I can thin of LA, but they did get Doughty high, and used other high picks to collect needed support players.  There are 32 teams with the majority following this pattern depending on their cycle of winning and losing.  There will be successful ones, and unseccessful ones.  The key though is to get those key pieces in places (young) and then build around them.  Miller is just too old (he will be 30 when his next contract starts) to be considered part of our key core.  He's a support piece, and someone like him is signed or traded for when our key young guys are the leaders.  

And Buffalo is looking like they are doing it right, finally.  And so is Detroit.  Dive to the bottom, collect the key young pieces, then fill in support players through Free Agency, Trade, Draft.  

[-DLC-]

1 hour ago, stawns said:

Again with the Miller mythology.  If he hates losing so much, how come it keeps happening to him?

What about the mythology that guys automatically decline at his age?

 

Let's address that first, shall we?

 

I can list a whole bunch of players who, if their teams had thought that way and ditched "older" players, may not ever have got a cup.

[JM_]

9 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Is there a Cup winner in the Cap era that hasn't had key pieces they got from the top of the draft?  I can thin of LA, but they did get Doughty high, and used other high picks to collect needed support players.  There are 32 teams with the majority following this pattern depending on their cycle of winning and losing.  There will be successful ones, and unseccessful ones.  The key though is to get those key pieces in places (young) and then build around them.  Miller is just too old (he will be 30 when his next contract starts) to be considered part of our key core.  He's a support piece, and someone like him is signed or traded for when our key young guys are the leaders.  

And Buffalo is looking like they are doing it right, finally.  And so is Detroit.  Dive to the bottom, collect the key young pieces, then fill in support players through Free Agency, Trade, Draft.  

I think we've done that though. Demko, Huges, Petey, Brock, Bo. Some decent supporting pieces coming in Klimovich and Rathbone. The rest via trade and UFA.

 

Interesting that you bring up LA, I think the way this team is built isn't that far off from the cup winning LA teams. We need some more size added on the wing and another tough d man, but we're not far from that. 

 

I get that the biggest issue is Millers age, and thats a legit concern with risks. But there's risks with the trade and 2 year re-tool idea too, there's no guarantee that works or Bo sticks around for that. 

 

I see risk on either concept of how to move forward. Anyone thinking Schneider is a guaranteed lock in the top pair if NYR coughs him up is also banking on hope. 

 

Unless you can show me the trade and re-tool is risk free?

Edited March 19, 2022 by JM_

[-DLC-]

11 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Is there a Cup winner in the Cap era that hasn't had key pieces they got from the top of the draft?  I can thin of LA, but they did get Doughty high, and used other high picks to collect needed support players.  There are 32 teams with the majority following this pattern depending on their cycle of winning and losing.  There will be successful ones, and unseccessful ones.  The key though is to get those key pieces in places (young) and then build around them.  Miller is just too old (he will be 30 when his next contract starts) to be considered part of our key core.  He's a support piece, and someone like him is signed or traded for when our key young guys are the leaders.  

And Buffalo is looking like they are doing it right, finally.  And so is Detroit.  Dive to the bottom, collect the key young pieces, then fill in support players through Free Agency, Trade, Draft.  

You DO need a mix. We have a bunch of young studs in Petey, Quinn, Demko, Podz, Hoglander. But you need to balance it as other teams have proven.

 

When TB won their 2 (recent) cups it was with several players at/over 30. Some of whom had stuck it out for a decade (wonder what would have happened if they were deemed "too old" and their teams worried and moved them out before they got there?).

[combover]

Trade him 

 

31 year old on an 7 year deal at 9+ mill 

“barf emoji”

[stawns]

3 minutes ago, -DLC- said:

What about the mythology that guys automatically decline at his age?

 

Let's address that first, shall we?

 

I can list a whole bunch of players who, if their teams had thought that way and ditched "older" players, may not ever have got a cup.

For the thousands of players who have played this game into their 30's, only a handful have continued to be dominant as they age.  If we made a list of players that dominated in their 30's to players who had a steady decline in play, my list would be multitudes longer than yours, not even comparable.

 

JT has had one dominant season in his career, the rest has been average to above average.  I was very happy when JB traded for him, one of the few who were completely fine with what they gave and JT has lived up to that deal and that expectation. 

 

But the mythology that people have built around him in the last 6 months is laughable and he will almost certainly come down to earth and then start his decline as he enters his 30's.  That's just biology

 

 

[Mustard Tiger]

2 minutes ago, combover said:

Trade him 

 

31 year old on an 7 year deal at 9+ mill 

“barf emoji”

I also want to be sellers, But every single other teams top players are on those types of contracts lmao...
Whole team cant be 20 year old ELC players scoring 30g each