Miller is a core player

[cdgraham]

46 minutes ago, Chris12345 said:

Signing guys into their mid 30s is so 1997.

 

Sure he's awesome but nothing over 33.

 

Also this core thing is old. If the return is good enough move anyone. 

Guess Boston shouldn't have signed Bergeron or Marchand into their  mid 30s? 

 

 

[cdgraham]

40 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Bingo.   Miller isn't and won't ever be a top level player - but since we got him, absolutely has been playing like one.   16th overall i'm scoring last time i checked, maybe he's now 15th!!?  Since he arrived.   Ahead of Tavares - and Zinbaenjad and some other big names like Stone.   ALL ... everyone of them, got massive deals.   Sure Miller is older but markets every Summer are what they are, and you can bet some GM will offer him the entire moon and sun.  And some of those markets won't be taxed 53% like ours, instead 36.4-42%...a huge difference in net pay, in his home country.   Why TO overpaid, and also why SJ overpays too (jock tax in Cali).  We have to be prepared for that.   Why would he not take the money?   Do you think he won't?  I don't.   

Yup and 13th overall in league scoring this year. He is not the one who should be moved and he is the one who is worth the money! 

[cdgraham]

1 hour ago, kilgore said:

I hope this new management team can figure out a way to keep together, re-sign:

Demko

Bo

Miller

Petey

Boeser

Hughes

Hogs

Podz

 

I'd love to see how a real GM manages to find creative ways to keep all these players together for the next 6 or 7 years.

 

But,....if that is impossible because of the cap not going up, or some other issue, why is it between Miller and Boeser? As most seem to be proposing.   If its one of them, and its preferably one of the ones on the older end of the scale, is it sacrilege to suggest it be Bo?  The way he has been playing of late, his value is probably quite high as well. I'd hate to lose him, and I'd prefer we keep all of those above. But on a true contender, Bo would probably be invaluable as one of the final pieces, especially that he doesn't have to be "the guy".  If it were between Miller and Bo, I'd sadly trade Bo, and then give the Captain C to Miller.

 

Honestly probably same. Also people seem to think that because Miller is in his 30s that's why he should be the odd man out. I used to agree with that but not anymore. 

 

People also need to see that he is also very durable, how many injuries does he have? He played pretty much all the games every year. (Only missed a few games because of covid last year right?) Literally zero injuries since he's arrived. Also is one of those players that has gotten better as he has aged, not worse. He seems to be one of those rare, durable players that gets better with time. (Giordano, Marchand, etc.) 

 

That is another huge reason why I am comfortable giving him a big contract. Makes way more sense then most players his age and deserves it as much as any of them. 

[HKSR]

6 minutes ago, cdgraham said:

Yup and 13th overall in league scoring this year. He is not the one who should be moved and he is the one who is worth the money! 

Yeah it's just bizarre.  Canucks fans are crazy lol.

 

Oh look, our player is literally one of the best players (offensively) in the entire league... TRADE HIM! HE OLD! NEED MORE PROJECT PROSPECTS! WHO KNOWS?  HE COULD TURN INTO A PLAYER LIKE JT MILLER!

 

Some waiver wire crap shows up on the newsfeed... CLAIM HIM! NOW!

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by HKSR

[cdgraham]

2 minutes ago, HKSR said:

Yeah it's just bizarre.  Canucks fans are crazy lol.

 

Oh look, our player is literally one of the best players (offensively) in the entire league... TRADE HIM! HE OLD! NEED MORE PROJECT PROSPECTS!

Some waiver wire crap shows up on the newsfeed... CLAIM HIM! NOW!

 

Haha LOL ya no kidding. And one of the first posts in this thread the guy was STILL COMPLAINING ABOUT THE DRAFT PICKS WE GAVE UP FOR HIM!!!

 

He is literally one of the best players in the league and he was upset about giving up what was a late first! I mean my God!

Edited December 17, 2021 by cdgraham

[higgyfan]

8 minutes ago, cdgraham said:

Guess Boston shouldn't have signed Bergeron or Marchand into their  mid 30s? 

 

 

Certain teams (like TB + Boston) have good players that will sign home discount contracts.  Why would Miller do that?  He might if he were traded to an elite contender, but that just isn't Van for a few more years.

[Coconuts]

53 minutes ago, HKSR said:

This I can agree with.  If JT Miller does end up finishing Top 15 in NHL scoring and asks for $9.5M AAV, then yeah, we won't have a choice but to move him. 

 

But if he is willing to take an $8M AAV deal for 7 or 8 years, we have to do it.

Nah, we really don't. I sure as hell ain't on board with paying a 30 year old player 8M til he's 37 or 38, that's insane and it's extremely unlikely he'd be worth it. Could Miller be good from 30-33? Sure. But what about the remaining five years? Having a player who's game is his offense who can't live up to a massive contract gives us an anchor when the rest of our youth (Hogs, Podz, Hughes, ect) are peaking or beginning to peak. 

 

Betting on him to age like Pavelski or like a player who's consistently produced much longer than he has is absurd. He's the outlier not the norm. We're not talking about a superstar player here, Miller's been PPG once, with a high of 72 points in 69 games. He wasn't far off last season, he's PPG this season so far. Is he a top line guy right now? Certainly, but I think a lot of folks are getting too wrapped up in what he is right now.

 

He'll be 29 in March, the clock is ticking. Are we contenders? No, we're a fringe playoff team who's got to keep winning at a hectic pace, stay healthy, win most of our divisional games, and have a fair bit of luck to even have a chance at getting into the playoffs at this point. We ain't contenders, this lineup has holes in it, full stop. 

 

Yes, we've won six in a row but we ain't gonna win every game for the rest of the season. There will be rough patches, injuries, we'll face adversity again. Could we make it? Sure, but it still ain't likely. Could we be a playoff team next year? We'll probably compete, but we're certainly not a sure thing. 

 

We can't afford to lose players for nothing, and it's silly to to not at least acknowledge the risk in signing a 30 year old forward to a lengthy and expensive retirement contract. A team can only allocate so much to it's top six before it begins to negatively impact other areas of the roster, something's gonna have to give at some point. If the cap wasn't stagnant that'd be something else, but it is and it'll be a while before it regularly climbs the way it used to. 

Edited December 17, 2021 by Coconuts

[Junkyard Dog]

14 minutes ago, cdgraham said:

Guess Boston shouldn't have signed Bergeron or Marchand into their  mid 30s? 

 

 

We’re in a lot different of a place than any core group of players that have won a cup together and make the playoffs year after year.

 

We’re on the other side of the spectrum in fact being one of the worst teams in the last 8 years. 
 

 

[Chris12345]

21 minutes ago, cdgraham said:

Guess Boston shouldn't have signed Bergeron or Marchand into their  mid 30s? 

 

 

Yea....love using outliers to make decisions. 

 

Not sure why the Canucks didn't lock up Loui for 8 years instead of 6.

[Toyotasfan]

I think he’s played great all season, even the dark Green part. Pettersson and Podz will be  the first line of the future, but for the next couple years it’s Miller . 

[aGENT]

50 minutes ago, HKSR said:

The point again was that you don't just dump players because of their age. 

 

6 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

We’re in a lot different of a place than any core group of players that have won a cup together and make the playoffs year after year.

 

We’re on the other side of the spectrum in fact being one of the worst teams in the last 8 years. 
 

 

This^^^

 

You do exactly that (trade, not 'dump' older players) when you're still coming out of a rebuild with a VERY young core.

[HKSR]

3 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Nah, we really don't. I sure as hell ain't on board with paying a 30 year old player 8M til he's 37 or 38, that's insane and it's extremely unlikely he'd be worth it. Could Miller be good from 30-33? Sure. But what about the remaining five years? Having a player who's game is his offense who can't live up to a massive contract gives us an anchor when the rest of our youth (Hogs, Podz, Hughes, ect) are peaking or beginning to peak. 

 

Betting on him to age like Pavelski or like a player who's consistently produced much longer than he has is absurd. He's the outlier not the norm. We're not talking about a superstar player here, Miller's been PPG once, with a high of 72 points in 69 games. He wasn't far off last season, he's PPG this season so far. Is he a top line guy right now? Certainly, but I think a lot of folks are getting too wrapped up in what he is right now.

 

He'll be 29 in February, the clock is ticking. Are we contenders? No, we're a fringe playoff team who's got to keep winning at a hectic pace, stay healthy, win most of our divisional games, and have a fair bit of luck to even have a chance at getting into the playoffs at this point. We ain't contenders, this lineup has holes in it, full stop. 

 

Yes, we've won six in a row but we ain't gonna win every game for the rest of the season. There will be rough patches, injuries, we'll face adversity again. Could we make it? Sure, but it still ain't likely. Could we be a playoff team next year? We'll probably compete, but we're certainly not a sure thing. 

 

We can't afford to lose players for nothing, and it's silly to to not at least acknowledge the risk in signing a 30 year old forward to a lengthy and expensive retirement contract. A team can only allocate so much to it's top six before it begins to negatively impact other areas of the roster, something's gonna have to give at some point. If the cap wasn't stagnant that'd be something else, but it is and it'll be a while before it regularly climbs the way it used to. 

This is precisely the problem with how some Canucks fans think. 

 

He's our guy, so:

1. He will never be like other team's top players.  Our guys will suck as soon as they turn 33.

2. I know he's 12th in NHL scoring right now which places him among the very best players in the entire NHL, but he's not that type of player.  See #1.

3. Yes, we've finally seen what the talent on this team is capable of, but they won't win every game.  So better make changes before that happens.  See #4.

4. We have holes in our lineup, so let's move a player that provides centre depth, offence, defence, PP, PK, leadership, grit, faceoffs, and emotion/passion.  That'll fix the holes.  We can worry about the holes that Miller leaves after we trade him.

5. Yes I can see that guys like Pearson and Dickinson could probably be moved and make the cap space needed, but why do that?  See #4. 

 

[cdgraham]

9 minutes ago, Chris12345 said:

Yea....love using outliers to make decisions. 

 

Not sure why the Canucks didn't lock up Loui for 8 years instead of 6.

Miller is an outlier too. Has gotten better with age like them, and misses no time to injuries. 

[Hairy Kneel]

Move OEL to a playoff contender if we are out of contention,we can retain 1M making him a valuable asset for a finishing piece at 6M.

ie. then find a 4M dman somewhere in the off season. 

Trade and replace Dickinson contract with a elc from Abby, Lockwood? 

We always have injuries: ltir's that are kind of inevitable. 

I think that the real key is to find a fair umbrella price for our top 4 forwards. 

Just not the TO or San Jose type of ballon contracts. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by Hairy Kneel

[cdgraham]

15 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

We’re in a lot different of a place than any core group of players that have won a cup together and make the playoffs year after year.

 

We’re on the other side of the spectrum in fact being one of the worst teams in the last 8 years. 
 

 

So we should therefore get rid of our best forward in order to.. improve? 

[Chris12345]

Just now, cdgraham said:

Miller is an outlier too. Has gotten better with age like them, and misses no time to injuries. 

Fingers crossed!

 

So was Loui at the time.

 

There are always exceptions for great players just a lot of misses have happened.

[HKSR]

2 minutes ago, cdgraham said:

Miller is an outlier too. Has gotten better with age like them, and misses no time to injuries. 

 

Just now, cdgraham said:

So we should therefore get rid of our best forward in order to.. improve? 

Finally someone with some common sense shows up ... thank you! LOL.

[cdgraham]

3 minutes ago, Chris12345 said:

Fingers crossed!

 

So was Loui at the time.

 

There are always exceptions for great players just a lot of misses have happened.

Totally! That being said though, loui I wouldn't say got better with age he had his best seasons in Dallas, and also wasn't injury free. (Concussion issues) 

Also wasn't half the player Miller has been for us the last 3 years his previous 3 years before signing his contract, so definitely still some key differences. 

[cdgraham]

5 minutes ago, HKSR said:

 

Finally someone with some common sense shows up ... thank you! LOL.

Hah thanks. Likewise 

[Coconuts]

Just now, HKSR said:

This is precisely the problem with how some Canucks fans think. 

 

He's our guy, so:

1. He will never be like other team's top players.  Our guys will suck as soon as they turn 33.

2. I know he's 12th in NHL scoring right now which places him among the very best players in the entire NHL, but he's not that type of player.  See #1.

3. Yes, we've finally seen what the talent on this team is capable of, but they won't win every game.  So better make changes before that happens.  See #4.

4. We have holes in our lineup, so let's move a player that provides centre depth, offence, defence, PP, PK, leadership, grit, faceoffs, and emotion/passion.  That'll fix the holes.  We can worry about the holes that Miller leaves after we trade him.

5. Yes I can see that guys like Pearson and Dickinson could probably be moved and make the cap space needed, but why do that?  See #4. 

 

Cool, you've just told me you're not worth taking seriously because instead of acknowledging my argument you jump right to making my train of thought out to be some kind of problem. But I'll humour you.

 

1. No, players don't immediately fall off in their 30's, but historically that's when the downtrend of most players takes place. D, forwards, goaltenders. Paying a guy millions of dollars on a lengthy contract and betting that he'll be one of the outliers is risky.

2. Yes, he's a great player right now. Already acknowledged that in the post you responded to. But expecting him to be that player for the rest of his career is unrealistic given his historical body of work. Players who flirt with PPG most of their career are the sort who get considered for the HOF.

3. Fans already knew the team was capable of more, it's why so many of em were calling for Green's head. It's also unlikely we see trades before Jim and co have a better idea of what we've got in this roster. He's also stated he's not interested in moving high picks, and likely ain't keen on moving players out from what's already a rather shallow prospect pool at the moment. What are you moving to plug holes if not futures? You're moving roster players. You don't replace Miller right away, folks have already told you this repeatedly in this thread. You bet on a more lengthy window and build around your younger core players as opposed to the shorter window of what remains of Miller's prime. 

5. Yup, you could move players out to facilitate paying Miller more but that doesn't negate the fact that signing a 30 year old player to a 7-8 year deal at 7-8M per is a huge risk for a player who's unlikely to to be able to produce enough to be worth it over the length of said deal. We're not a team who's been having success year after year, he's not part of a group who's won a cup or had numerous deep runs. He's a player who went to the second round with us once. Comparing him to extending guys like Marchand and Bergeron ain't remotely the same thing. There is risk in extending him, and a good chance you're signing a contract that'll become an anchor at some point.