[Discussion] Kuzmenko Extension

[HKSR]

5 minutes ago, BCNate said:

Well I did say 6-7.

FTFY

[Nuxfanabroad]

Poor ol' Nux-backers, chewin their nails to the nub :^)

 

This guy's been a blast.. I'm just appreciative he picked our team in the first place!

 

Holy Toledo, you nellies..every freeken day there's something new to chew yer nails about! You're not on a GM's salary - but you're prob expending more nervous energy than the actual dude who's being paid for the F***ing gig! Have a cuppa' Earl Grey & relax, eh...

Edited December 15, 2022 by Nuxfanabroad

[Kobayashi Maru]

I would say his extension would be around 5.5 x 4, however it will highly depend on how he finishes the year and at his current pace it could be much higher.  No way he takes a show me deal as that is exactly what his current deal was and he has shown us.

[Bobby James]

I'd be happy with Kuzmenko at around 4-5 million per year and we give term so I guess 7 years. This is based on his play this year. Great offensive, but we have to ask the question how good is a player when they are not being setup by Petey. 

 

I get what everyone is saying though that a 70-80 point winger who scores 30+ goals is more like 7 million per with term. I'm just not sure the Canucks should commit that money to him. I like him a lot, but his play in his own end is nonexistent (I understand he is an NHL rookie, just judging him on this season) and I'm already not happy with JT's defensive play, so do we want another long term contract on a scoring forward that is poor in their own end? This team is known to be easy to play against and we've seen how bad our D is this year. 

 

So I hope we push to sign him by the trade deadline and get a decent cap hit while giving him term. I understand if his agent is like hell no go for the biggest paycheck you can find, in which case he is an excellent trade deadline move for a team. Almost no cap hit, great goal scoring and PP player. 

 

If we trade a few guys then it is less concerning (please trade Miller), but as our team is currently structured then no I think you take money from one of the forwards we lose (likely Bo at this point) and add to the D group. 

[grandmaster]

Moore in LA who the boys on 650 just talked about is a hood comparable for Kuz. That was 4.2 x 5 years. Kuz is not getting 6-7M like some guys saying here. If JR presented a 5x5, Kuz would sign it right away.

[Coconuts]

Just now, grandmaster said:

Moore in LA who the boys on 650 just talked about is a hood comparable for Kuz. That was 4.2 x 5 years. Kuz is not getting 6-7M like some guys saying here. If JR presented a 5x5, Kuz would sign it right away.

Moore put up 48 in 81 last season, it's his highest benchmark regarding production. He's at 18 in 32 right now. 

 

If Kuzmenko puts up 70+ it's not really comparable. He's at 26 in 28 right now. 

[Warhippy]

He is the single most valuable asset on the Canucks with his production and should be treated like found money and flipped to a contender or bubble team at the deadline for picks/prospects.

 

Period.

 

We will not be able to retain him at the $7.25+ million league average he will be worth based on his current rate of production especially with the cap increase slated at only $1 million and needing to find a potential 2nd line centre to replace horvat AND still needing to fix our defense.

 

In order of value in return the following need to go to ensure the long term health and viability of this team

 

Horvat

Kuzmenko

Schenn

Garland

Pearson

Boeser

Myers

Miller*

 

Added a* for Miller because at a recent BoG and GMs meeting it was stated the cap may not increase more than $1 million and zero trades were happening or possible due to injuries from interested teams and an absolute lack of cap space.  Which means any high value long term contracts will most likely not be moved and to expect a series of potential buyouts at the end of the next season or two.

 

https://www.espn.com/nhl/insider/insider/story/_/id/35246436/nhl-board-governors-takeaways-trade-chatter-playoff-expansion

 

There were a handful of general managers at the board of governors meetings (or "with governor access" as some put it). In conversions with a handful of them, one large theme emerged.

Summed up by one general manager: "It's impossible to get a trade done right now. Nobody can get anything done."

There are a few reasons in-season transactions have been hard to come by. The rash of injuries have put a few teams' plans on hold. The parity in the league is more pronounced than ever before, meaning several teams are nearing Christmas and still don't know what direction they'll go in (for example, the St. Louis Blues). Others are wondering if this is a year to go chasing when so many teams have a chance.

But after conversations with several general managers, the biggest cited reason for the hold-up: the number of teams pressed against the salary cap, which has remained mostly stagnant following the pandemic.

That means teams are waiting as long as possible to get their business done, allowing their cap space to accrue for maximum flexibility. Once we get closer to the March 3 trade deadline, general managers predict things will heat up.

"Might not be busy for you now, but I think you'll be very busy on March 3 this year," one GM said. "There's going to be a lot of players, a lot of teams in the mix."

One trend to watch out for is the reemergence of "third-party brokers," as teams with the luxury of cap space will step up to retain salary on a deal to pick up extra assets. As a reminder, an NHL contract is allowed to have a maximum of two teams retaining salary on it, and that retention is maxed out at 50% per team. Per the CBA, teams can have only three contracts with salary retention at a time.

Teams expected to engage as third-party brokers this season include the Chicago Blackhawks, Montreal Canadiens, Arizona Coyotes, Anaheim Ducks and San Jose Sharks -- all teams building for the future.

 

 

[grandmaster]

8 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Moore put up 48 in 81 last season, it's his highest benchmark regarding production. He's at 18 in 32 right now. 

 

If Kuzmenko puts up 70+ it's not really comparable. He's at 26 in 28 right now. 

I just heard em on the radio discuss it before I got in the gym. Maybe they don’t think Kuz can sustain this pace

[Coconuts]

3 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

I just heard em on the radio discuss it before I got in the gym. Maybe they don’t think Kuz can sustain this pace

It's possible, but given he's playing with Pettersson he'll likely get every opportunity to do so. 

 

48 points vs 70+ are completely different brackets and so are the pay scales. 

 

I do think folks who are concerned about what he'll command, or whether he'll chase the bag, have legitimate reason to be. There's a good chance Kuzmenko won't be on the cheaper side if he keeps this up. 

[Phil_314]

11 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

He is the single most valuable asset on the Canucks with his production and should be treated like found money and flipped to a contender or bubble team at the deadline for picks/prospects.

 

Period.

 

We will not be able to retain him at the $7.25+ million league average he will be worth based on his current rate of production especially with the cap increase slated at only $1 million and needing to find a potential 2nd line centre to replace horvat AND still needing to fix our defense.

 

In order of value in return the following need to go to ensure the long term health and viability of this team

 

Horvat

Kuzmenko

Schenn

Garland

Pearson

Boeser

Myers

Miller*

 

Added a* for Miller because at a recent BoG and GMs meeting it was stated the cap may not increase more than $1 million and zero trades were happening or possible due to injuries from interested teams and an absolute lack of cap space.  Which means any high value long term contracts will most likely not be moved and to expect a series of potential buyouts at the end of the next season or two.

 

https://www.espn.com/nhl/insider/insider/story/_/id/35246436/nhl-board-governors-takeaways-trade-chatter-playoff-expansion

 

There were a handful of general managers at the board of governors meetings (or "with governor access" as some put it). In conversions with a handful of them, one large theme emerged.

Summed up by one general manager: "It's impossible to get a trade done right now. Nobody can get anything done."

There are a few reasons in-season transactions have been hard to come by. The rash of injuries have put a few teams' plans on hold. The parity in the league is more pronounced than ever before, meaning several teams are nearing Christmas and still don't know what direction they'll go in (for example, the St. Louis Blues). Others are wondering if this is a year to go chasing when so many teams have a chance.

But after conversations with several general managers, the biggest cited reason for the hold-up: the number of teams pressed against the salary cap, which has remained mostly stagnant following the pandemic.

That means teams are waiting as long as possible to get their business done, allowing their cap space to accrue for maximum flexibility. Once we get closer to the March 3 trade deadline, general managers predict things will heat up.

"Might not be busy for you now, but I think you'll be very busy on March 3 this year," one GM said. "There's going to be a lot of players, a lot of teams in the mix."

One trend to watch out for is the reemergence of "third-party brokers," as teams with the luxury of cap space will step up to retain salary on a deal to pick up extra assets. As a reminder, an NHL contract is allowed to have a maximum of two teams retaining salary on it, and that retention is maxed out at 50% per team. Per the CBA, teams can have only three contracts with salary retention at a time.

Teams expected to engage as third-party brokers this season include the Chicago Blackhawks, Montreal Canadiens, Arizona Coyotes, Anaheim Ducks and San Jose Sharks -- all teams building for the future.

Exactly.  Adding a game-breaker on an ELC, that any contender would be able to afford would make for quite the bidding war.  We really shouldn't be looking to hold onto him since we won't be able to sign him without tearing away other assets to move guys they signed who aren't necessarily even bad (Brock/ Garland just might be badly deployed on lower lines so they look overpriced).  If we get like 2 x 2nds for him at the deadline, I'd package each of those picks to move off a bad contract like Pearson or Myers, since cap is definitely king in this era and he'd be a blue-chip piece we'd have on hand to get said cap (or a very skilled young asset/ pick).

[JAVA-1]

Would love to keep him but..... I think you need to find out how much they are wanting (term and money) first and then go from there.

 

[Coconuts]

17 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

He is the single most valuable asset on the Canucks with his production and should be treated like found money and flipped to a contender or bubble team at the deadline for picks/prospects.

 

Period.

 

We will not be able to retain him at the $7.25+ million league average he will be worth based on his current rate of production especially with the cap increase slated at only $1 million and needing to find a potential 2nd line centre to replace horvat AND still needing to fix our defense.

 

In order of value in return the following need to go to ensure the long term health and viability of this team

 

Horvat

Kuzmenko

Schenn

Garland

Pearson

Boeser

Myers

Miller*

 

Added a* for Miller because at a recent BoG and GMs meeting it was stated the cap may not increase more than $1 million and zero trades were happening or possible due to injuries from interested teams and an absolute lack of cap space.  Which means any high value long term contracts will most likely not be moved and to expect a series of potential buyouts at the end of the next season or two.

 

https://www.espn.com/nhl/insider/insider/story/_/id/35246436/nhl-board-governors-takeaways-trade-chatter-playoff-expansion

 

There were a handful of general managers at the board of governors meetings (or "with governor access" as some put it). In conversions with a handful of them, one large theme emerged.

Summed up by one general manager: "It's impossible to get a trade done right now. Nobody can get anything done."

There are a few reasons in-season transactions have been hard to come by. The rash of injuries have put a few teams' plans on hold. The parity in the league is more pronounced than ever before, meaning several teams are nearing Christmas and still don't know what direction they'll go in (for example, the St. Louis Blues). Others are wondering if this is a year to go chasing when so many teams have a chance.

But after conversations with several general managers, the biggest cited reason for the hold-up: the number of teams pressed against the salary cap, which has remained mostly stagnant following the pandemic.

That means teams are waiting as long as possible to get their business done, allowing their cap space to accrue for maximum flexibility. Once we get closer to the March 3 trade deadline, general managers predict things will heat up.

"Might not be busy for you now, but I think you'll be very busy on March 3 this year," one GM said. "There's going to be a lot of players, a lot of teams in the mix."

One trend to watch out for is the reemergence of "third-party brokers," as teams with the luxury of cap space will step up to retain salary on a deal to pick up extra assets. As a reminder, an NHL contract is allowed to have a maximum of two teams retaining salary on it, and that retention is maxed out at 50% per team. Per the CBA, teams can have only three contracts with salary retention at a time.

Teams expected to engage as third-party brokers this season include the Chicago Blackhawks, Montreal Canadiens, Arizona Coyotes, Anaheim Ducks and San Jose Sharks -- all teams building for the future.

 

 

Given how hard is is to make trades because of how tight teams are capwise both Kuzmenko and Schenn are extremely valuable trade chips, anyone could fit their cap hits in.

 

I hope we get a haul for Kuzmenko, it's the perfect sell high opportunity. Not that we really do that, but it'd be nice to see. 

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Given how hard is is to make trades because of how tight teams are capwise both Kuzmenko and Schenn are extremely valuable trade chips, anyone could fit their cap hits in.

 

I hope we get a haul for Kuzmenko, it's the perfect sell high opportunity. Not that we really do that, but it'd be nice to see. 

The return will must certainly be futures. Will our owner all management to keep those futures or expect to see them used to bring in experienced players to “help now”?

[grandmaster]

5 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Given how hard is is to make trades because of how tight teams are capwise both Kuzmenko and Schenn are extremely valuable trade chips, anyone could fit their cap hits in.

 

I hope we get a haul for Kuzmenko, it's the perfect sell high opportunity. Not that we really do that, but it'd be nice to see. 

True enough. Both are on very cheap contracts. If only there was a way to swap Brock for Kuz and swap Garland for Bo’s raise. Still doesn’t help the defence but we all love Bo and Kuz! 

[HKSR]

26 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Moore put up 48 in 81 last season, it's his highest benchmark regarding production. He's at 18 in 32 right now. 

 

If Kuzmenko puts up 70+ it's not really comparable. He's at 26 in 28 right now. 

Yeah I don't see anything close to a comparable being Moore.  Moore is more closely comparable to Garland IMO.

[Bure2Win]

Trade Boeser and pay the man!

[CanucksJay]

2 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

Boeser any day of the week. Sure he's on a 6.5M cap hit but he's young and we might be able to negotiate his next year. Miller is locked down, 8M for a long time, and he's already showing us he's not getting better, is only getting worse. I'd keep Boeser and trade Miller because also you'd hope we get more of a haul from Miller but even if we're just losing one for nothing, I'd still want to lose Miller. We could do some real damage with his cap hit in the future. For example...re-sign our best player?

 

2 hours ago, EddieVedder said:

Miller.  Miller does way more and is less of a liability.  Not even close.

Boeser gets slower every year - Miller will be faster at 35 than Boeser is even now. 

 

Very polarizing views for sure. 

I dunno. I'm with downundacanuck. 

Perfect world, I'd trade both

If I had to keep one though, I'd prob keep Boeser in hopes that he improves

 

We've already seen miller's best (last season). Even then, he traded chances but he was luckily able to score more to make up for his gaffes. I said it then and I'll say it again. Playing hockey that way is not sustainable. 

Brock on the other hand deals with a completely different issue. He doesn't make the bone headed passes like Miller does but he can't win a puck battle to save his life

His skating is suspect and his defensive awareness is average to below average. 

 

He's pretty much the Tyson Barrie of forwards. 

If we can get him to a 5m contract and insulate him with good 2 way players, he can be a 60-70 PT guy which would be great value. 

 

[Coconuts]

27 minutes ago, Alflives said:

The return will must certainly be futures. Will our owner all management to keep those futures or expect to see them used to bring in experienced players to “help now”?

I mean, futures are useful though. Picks and prospects are great, particularly if they're at positions we're a bit more weak. 

 

We don't have much in the way of center prospects all, we could could more high end D prospects. Hell, we could use prospects at every position. 

 

I don't know, we're also pretty tight capwise so prospects actually help in the sense that if they're playing in lesser leagues they don't impact our current cap hit. 

 

25 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

True enough. Both are on very cheap contracts. If only there was a way to swap Brock for Kuz and swap Garland for Bo’s raise. Still doesn’t help the defence but we all love Bo and Kuz! 

I'm not really optimistic about a Boeser trade freeing up a whole lot of space, I think what's more than likely is that if he's moved there'll be money coming back. If we move Boeser in that scenario and get a guy coming back with one less year on his deal that'd still be a win, but it doesn't help us sooner than later. 

 

I don't think Boeser is worthless via trade, it's just that competitive teams who might consider him are likely to also be pretty capped out. Most of the league is right now. 

 

If there's any hope of them signing Bo, let alone Kuzmenko, they're going to have to find a way to move a larger contract out before the end of the season. If not more than one and I reckon that'll be hard to do without paying a team with open space to take on cap. Maybe someone around Chicago, Anaheim, or Buffalo but I'm really not keen on spending more assets to dump yet more cap. 

 

Maybe Boeser can be sent to Buffalo for pennies on the dollar, or Garland, but I'm not sure management is willing to take a losing deal like that even if they win by freeing up space. Buffalo also doesn't have any issue scoring goals, they lead the league in goals. So hard to say if they'd be interested. 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Coconuts

[Maginator]

I'd give him 5 years @ 7.5 top.

 

if he wants 6 years I'd go to 6.8ish.

[VegasCanuck]

53 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Kuzmenko is already on pace this year for 39 goals.  So 50 goals isn't out of the question in year 2...

To be fair, a number of the goals he has scored have been stick on the ice deflections on feeds from Pettersson....the type of feeds that a fire hydrant could have converted.

 

That said, his skill level eclipses my best estimates, so I think it's realistic to sign him to a long-term in the mid 7 to low 8 range. I still say if we move Myers after his signing bonus is paid, plus either Boeser or Miller for the assets we need on defense, next season will be a really strong one for us.