Gawdzukes Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 14 minutes ago, sonoman said: Not on team tank. We could finish dead last and still move back 3 draft spots with this teams luck. That still gives us an awesome player. I would be ecstatic if we were guaranteed a top 4 player this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucker 67 Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 (edited) 17 minutes ago, sonoman said: Not on team tank. We could finish dead last and still move back 3 draft spots with this teams luck. A 3rd or 4th overall pick in this Draft would still be a big step towards building a contender Edited January 16, 2023 by NUCKER67 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldFaithfulCap Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 (edited) 28 minutes ago, nux_win said: Maybe, maybe not. If there was one true formula for winning, everyone would do it. And then it still wouldn't work because not everyone can win. It's the concept of trying to win by losing that is problemmatic for me. Yes, it's a deep draft but the draft is meant to be a consolation prize for teams not strong enough to win. It's not meant to be a go-to strategy for establishing a winner. That doesn't stop people from trying to call a bug a feature though. Establishing a winning culture is not about any individual player but rather it's about establishing a winning culture. Or in other words establishing the effort needed to win is just as important as having the right players. GCG! P.S. - As much as Canucks fans hate the Bruins, do you think that they would ever lose on purpose to try to get a better draft pick? I don't think so. They, and other top teams, manage to get the players they need through other means. It's the winning spirit that carries them not the draft pick order. There's no proven way, and drafting is hard and you need to fill out the roster correctly and get luck. That being said it's really hard to win the Cup without a top 5 pick, even without 2 top 5. It seems like the last stanley cup winner which didn't feature a top 5 pick was the 2007-08 Red wings (Kronwall with the 29th pick). The Bruins didn't need Horton that much either granted so you could go back to them. Avs - Makar, MacKinnon Lighting - Stamkos, Hedman, Blues - Pietrangelo, Schenn Caps - Ovi, Backstrom Pens - Crosby, Malkin Blackhawks - Kane, Toews Kings - Doughty, gaborik (in second) Bruins - Horton Edited January 16, 2023 by OldFaithfulCap gab 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJockitch Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 20 minutes ago, nux_win said: Maybe, maybe not. If there was one true formula for winning, everyone would do it. And then it still wouldn't work because not everyone can win. It's the concept of trying to win by losing that is problemmatic for me. Yes, it's a deep draft but the draft is meant to be a consolation prize for teams not strong enough to win. It's not meant to be a go-to strategy for establishing a winner. That doesn't stop people from trying to call a bug a feature though. Establishing a winning culture is not about any individual player but rather it's about establishing a winning culture. Or in other words establishing the effort needed to win is just as important as having the right players. GCG! P.S. - As much as Canucks fans hate the Bruins, do you think that they would ever lose on purpose to try to get a better draft pick? I don't think so. They, and other top teams, manage to get the players they need through other means. It's the winning spirit that carries them not the draft pick order. Other than the Bruins, what are the other championship teams since the cap came in that didn’t get built at the top of the draft? No one strategy is foolproof, and we keep hiring fools. But your best chance to build towards a championship is through cycling between building a core and then tearing it down when it is not competitive. Ottawa did a great job of this, they tore apart a team that went deep into the playoffs because they new it was the end of its competitive cycle and are building it correctly now, Chicago also took a championship team and rebuilt it to win more. ‘Our core was never built before we started acting like a championship calibre team, signing UFA after UFA to fill gaps, trading away high draft pics for short term solutions to maintain a GMs job instead of build a potential cup team. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzukes Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 4 minutes ago, iinatcc said: The losing culture can't get any worse as this point. If there was something to salvage that can carry forward to next season, maybe but for now the team has hit rock bottom. Exactly. It's a work situation where morale has completely gotten to a point of unfixability. Do you just pretend every thing is alright or do you go fix it? It involves making some changes for the long-term. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nux_win Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 8 minutes ago, iinatcc said: The losing culture can't get any worse as this point. If there was something to salvage that can carry forward to next season, maybe but for now the team has hit rock bottom. Oh, it can get a lot worse. We're only medium-bad right now. Losing on purpose is always going to increase the losing culture. And adding a good player to a bad team doesn't always help. GCG! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldFaithfulCap Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 19 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said: Exactly. It's a work situation where morale has completely gotten to a point of unfixability. Do you just pretend every thing is alright or do you go fix it? It involves making some changes for the long-term. Bringing in tocchet, keeping inconsistent players like boeser and trading bo for win now guys so we can just miss the playoffs will keep us going nowhere. Seems that's where we are headed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucker 67 Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 Trade one of Horvat/Miller, and also Boeser, Garland and Myers (acquire 1-2 more 1st Round picks and 2-3 prospects, plus players for cap) The Canucks would then have 2-3 1st Round picks and additional prospects to boost their future And they would still have this core to build around. Pettersson Miller or Horvat Kuzmenko (re-sign to keep Petey happy) Mikheyev Podkolzin Hoglander Hughes Bear Demko Imagine adding Bedard, Fantilli or Carlsson. Canucks need to drop and a whole lotta lotto luck. But with 1-2 other 1st Round picks, maybe they also get a good Dman like Dragicevic or SandinPellikka. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
higgyfan Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 22 minutes ago, Alflives said: Yup. Don't get how we could actively cheer for us to lose games. Imagine we are playing, and our GDT is full of posts cheering for the opponent. Makes no sense to this old fan. Imo, cheering to lose in a GDT is somewhat like trolling and I would never do that. I don't think that the players would intentionally lose games, but coaches and GMs can do things that would affect the outcome of games. The lineup is being adjusted to get maximum performance for players that the GM wants to move. Mik playing on the 4th line? Really? After TDL, there will likely be a significant loss of talent, which will increase the potential for a loss. It's unlikely the return in a trade will have the same output (pts) as the departing player; at least not in the current season. There's no denying that landing a top 5 pick in the draft could support a better future for this team. Keeping such a player or creating a trade that returns a young prospect that plays a role that the Canucks are in desperate need of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzukes Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 Just now, OldFaithfulCap said: Bringing in tocchet, keeping inconsistent players like boeser and trading bo for win now guys so we can just miss the playoffs will keep us going nowhere. Seems that's where we are headed. Yeah it's sad days for sure. These guys and gals seem hellbent on forging a winner with this group. It ain't happening with the softest most defensively weak top 6 in the NHL. Miller, Boeser, Garland, Kuzmenko, and Bo, are as weak as they come. Petterson tries hard but he's still weak on the body at this point too. You can afford one maybe two of these guys if you want to stick against real teams, not 6. Then there is our defence ... yet management seems to think we're right there maybe 1 or 2 players away. It's a kerfuffle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconuts Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 Tank all the way, I've no shame in saying I'm hoping they lose as many games as possible 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 I didn't vote because, although I know it's best to tank at this point with us being so far out of the playoffs, I don't support team intentional tanks. I don't know that many (any) team would try to lose for possible long term gain (that isn't even guaranteed). Most players don't want to count on other guys and a purposeful tank would sort of show defeat in them. Giving up (on themselves as well as the team). Most want to prove themselves, they're competitors who generally don't accept losing. For any reason. I want the team to win for their sake...for their overall psyche and state of mind. Guys will want out fast if we're just constant losers (and/or don't upgrade accordingly). So my hope is that the team doesn't sink too low (ha, Blue Monday today too) and can find something to motivate them. If not now, for next season. If they lose, I'm perfectly ok with what could come of that at the end of the season. Not all bad. So I'm of the "let the chips fall where they may" thinking. Whatever will be will be. But middle of the pack as we strive for playoffs wouldn't serve us well...although that's what seems to happen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 1 minute ago, -DLC- said: I don't know that many (any) team would try to lose for possible long term gain Imo; Buffalo is the most recent, blatant, tank job, for Mc David- they ended up with Eichel. Buffalo was winning to many games so they traded their #1 goalie. They got so focused on McDavid, they were heart broken getting Eichel- who is a damn fine hockey player himself. The way that was handled eventually cost the GM his job. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconuts Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 3 minutes ago, Gurn said: Imo; Buffalo is the most recent, blatant, tank job, for Mc David- they ended up with Eichel. Buffalo was winning to many games so they traded their #1 goalie. They got so focused on McDavid, they were heart broken getting Eichel- who is a damn fine hockey player himself. The way that was handled eventually cost the GM his job. Montreal is the most recent example, they embraced being bad last season and sold off quite a few assets Amazing how quickly a team that had somehow made it's way to the cup final embraced a change of direction 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB5 Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 Given the options of to tank or not to tank I choose tank. I provide the caveat that players won't intentionally lose so my support of tanking is conditional on management doing the right thing in managing their assets. Move expiring contracts, move players who don't buy-in, improve the defense, get rid of bad contracts. This probably will result in a tank-like effect whereby the team is temporarily weakened but it could have the opposite and the team starts to gel and plays as a more cohesive unit. Bottom line is this team needs to become sellers prior to the TDL so if that results in tanking, so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconuts Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, nux_win said: What's wrong with Canucks "fans"? We've gone from wanting to win the cup to wanting to win the draft lottery. That's not the big prize people. In our fervent desire to win something, anything, I think we're forgetting that tanking involves losing on purpose. I'll never be on board with that. GCG! Nothing. There's nothing wrong with folks having different views and opinions than you. You aren't a better fan for not being on board with it, I'm not a better fan for being pro-tank and pro-rebuild. The players won't go out and try to lose, that's not what a tank is. A tank is management calling a spade a spade and recognizing that their team isn't competitive and either allowing things to unfold organically or by removing pieces from the roster to make said roster less competitive. The players always want to win, but management can trade guys out and plug depth pieces or AHL players into the roster. They can trade valuable pieces on their roster that help make said roster more competitive for picks, prospects, and players. They can sell. We'll almost certainly see that with a Horvat trade. We already have a losing culture, look at the past decade. We've been mediocre at best, our prospect pool needs help at all positions, we've repeatedly traded picks and failed to properly draft and develop prospects in-house. It could even be argued that Hughes and Pettersson were simply too naturally talented for us to screw up, they stepped right in and hit the ground running, most prospects don't. They didn't see a lick of development time anywhere but the NHL. Everyone here wants a cup, but there are several different takes on how to get there. Edited January 16, 2023 by Coconuts 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wai_lai416 Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 ive been on team tank since the matthew draft but every year they manage to screw themselves.. this was a perfect year to tank for bedard after the diasterous start but they won't.. and frankly it's too late to tank as i think at best they'll finish in the 6-7th worse slot and need some miracle to win the lottery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mando27 Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 Been on team tank and wanting a proper rebuild since after the cup final. The teams refusal to commit to one is just dragging out the pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpyone Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 I say no, because GB will NEVER allow us to win the lottery. The best we can hope for is 3rd pick. & that's from 50+ years of watching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24K PureCool Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 OK did JR officially admit to tanking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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