The deserving(?) downfall of the Vancouver Canucks

[You Mad Bro?]

[spook007]

As for cap space....

 

Its easier to sign players to 'team friendly' contract, when you are a contending team, and then there is the tax issues...

 

But yes, being where we are, we should never have been capped out. 
 

Poor contracts handed out...

[fanfor42]

1 hour ago, NUCKER67 said:

After seeing Bo in an Islanders jersey and hearing the Isles fans chanting his name, so happy to have him. I can only imagine how good that must've felt, to finally be appreciated in that way by a fanbase. 

 

 

Bo will be hacked on by NYI fans as early as next year when the honeymoon is over and they have an 8.5M player who gets 60 points a year.

 

 

[Alflives]

2 hours ago, combover said:

Some of us have been saying this since 2012-2013.

 

It’s Painful and no coincidence that the team has been in disarray almost the entire time Francesco  has been the ceo/owner. 

I just see the same mistakes being made over and over.

once the playoffs became the goal and not a Cup this  team was a turd in a never ending flushing toilet.

Jb was a disaster the minute he said “ I think we have a window to win” it told us he was a clueless idiot And then he proved it over 8 seasons of stupid moves. 
 

best thing for this franchise is for to be sold or for Francesco’s bothers to remove him from any and all hockey ops fire him from the ceo position. 
till then it’s status quo and more of the same. 
 

I’ll keep watching on TV as I’ve always done my emotional attachment is near nil and I find it funny more than upsetting when the team fails.but  I won’t pay to see a game till Francesco’s gone because I refuse to support the person I hold responsible for ruining this franchise. 



 

 

 

Agreed that our owner has meddles in hockey ops since he bought the club.  But I’m wondering if the Boudreau firing (mid season after it’s clear JR wanted to make the coaching change last summer, but our owner refused) and the Horvat trad3 for futures (clearly a rebuilding return, and not what Aquilini prefers) might signal our owner has finally realized what his meddling has done, so he’s keeping his snout out for now?  

Maybe we see more rebuilding type trades?  I’m just hoping we don’t see that Islanders’ first traded for an established NHL player? 

[Crabcakes]

4 hours ago, 250Integra said:

Let me sum it up for you.

 

Being a contender / playoff team year over year is a fine goal.  Of course a cup is the ultimate goal.  It must be.

 

However, a team must pay it's dues in order to build a winner and dispatching Benning to make a quick turn around and always having to make the playoffs, when said like that is futile and over 8 years it was proven to be so.  Now, 10 years after Gillis called for a rebuild and even began one with the draft of Bo Horvat, they're in a real pickle.

 

 

[Mike Vanderhoek]

4 hours ago, Fanuck said:

On one hand I agree, fans don't deserve over a decade of futility.

 

On the other hand, it's those same fans, or the majority of them anyway,  who have financially supported this club throughout the decade plus of futility sending the message to ownership that he has their support.

 

So is it deserved, or isn't it - I'm not totally sure myself?

 

One thing is very likely - if the rink started to be half full (or worse) on most game days, and stayed that way - there would be some serious changes RIGHT QUICK as FA wouldn't accept that for very long. 

 

And that day will never happen because the amount of corporate support alone dictates how many seats are full just due to corporate giveaways etc. There is also a large portion of the fanbase that is diehard fans with an income level that does not support the ability to buy tickets but continues to buy merchandise, watch games on tv etc. These fans used to be known as the diehards, the real fans who added to the atmosphere of a game in the seats, cheered their team on and simply were priced out.

 

There will be empty seats sure, but you aren't going to see major change if say the rink is 65% full for a time. The team is drawing excitement now, an uptick due to the two changes in the Horvat trade and Tocchet hiring we've already seen.

 

The irony for the negative base here is that FA likely won't be moving on until he gets a championship in Vancouver, which again is what we want lol.

 

 

[ilduce39]

There’s been a ton of mistakes over the years but the “downfall” has been a historically bad PK and league worst goaltending. 

[The Lock]

4 hours ago, Dazzle said:

To me, his points point to an obvious bias and is not at all objective. It's pretty telling that the posters that think this video is great because it speaks to an audience that agrees with a certain point.

 

However, when he discussed the aftermath of the so-called "panic move" led to the trade of 9th overall (Guenther), who the video maker proceeded to show the goal of Guenther in WJC. Really? We don't know if Guenther will be a footnote in the NHL, but the video maker assumes that Guenther is some cornerstone player who would have helped this team. He's JUST a winger. Doesn't even address organizational need.

 

This seems nothing more than an obvious beating of the horse of points that haven't been discussed to death already.

I don't know if grasping at Guenthier really proves your points to be honest. He's one prospect/player who's showing a lot of potential. He's kind of just one aspect of all of this. Using him, and literally only him to say "obvious bias"... it's like looking at an article, picking out 1 or 2 sentences and going "AHA GOTCHA!" while literally ignoring everything else which is apparently "beating a dead horse". Does that make everything else not true?

 

Also, to say "beating of the horse" in the same vein as "obvious bias"... do you agree or not agree with what the person's saying here? In one statement you do. In another statement you don't? What is it?

 

And I'm not trying to completely knock on your stance here. I get having the pride, but I have to call this out. Your argument needs work here as it only looks at one small thing while conveniently looks at everything else as a "dead horse" which makes me assume you don't want to talk about that stuff as it goes against your stance. You know I'm not one to just go against the Canucks (hopefully) and I hope you see I'm not just trying to blow smoke at you.

Edited February 9, 2023 by The Lock

[Dazzle]

1 hour ago, The Lock said:

I don't know if grasping at Guenthier really proves your points to be honest. He's one prospect/player who's showing a lot of potential. He's kind of just one aspect of all of this. Using him, and literally only him to say "obvious bias"... it's like looking at an article, picking out 1 or 2 sentences and going "AHA GOTCHA!" while literally ignoring everything else which is apparently "beating a dead horse". Does that make everything else not true?

 

Also, to say "beating of the horse" in the same vein as "obvious bias"... do you agree or not agree with what the person's saying here? In one statement you do. In another statement you don't? What is it?

 

And I'm not trying to completely knock on your stance here. I get having the pride, but I have to call this out. Your argument needs work here as it only looks at one small thing while conveniently looks at everything else as a "dead horse" which makes me assume you don't want to talk about that stuff as it goes against your stance. You know I'm not one to just go against the Canucks (hopefully) and I hope you see I'm not just trying to blow smoke at you.

None of his video introduces anything new. The prospect being highlighted is just a repeat of the ongoing discussion. What I'm criticizing is that the fuel is just being poured on an ongoing fire, all for the clicks.

[Dazzle]

4 hours ago, spook007 said:

As for cap space....

 

Its easier to sign players to 'team friendly' contract, when you are a contending team, and then there is the tax issues...

 

But yes, being where we are, we should never have been capped out. 
 

Poor contracts handed out...

Horvat has signed team friendly contracts throughout his career. The moment that he signed for market value is when the Canucks fans accuse him of cashing out for money. The entitlement in this city is ridiculous.

[DSVII]

7 hours ago, Dazzle said:

To me, his points point to an obvious bias and is not at all objective. It's pretty telling that the posters that think this video is great because it speaks to an audience that agrees with a certain point.

 

However, when he discussed the aftermath of the so-called "panic move" led to the trade of 9th overall (Guenther), who the video maker proceeded to show the goal of Guenther in WJC. Really? We don't know if Guenther will be a footnote in the NHL, but the video maker assumes that Guenther is some cornerstone player who would have helped this team. He's JUST a winger. Doesn't even address organizational need.

 

This seems nothing more than an obvious beating of the horse of points that haven't been discussed to death already.

Even if Guenther ends up an absolute bust. Coyotes still won that trade. That is how lopsided it is in the flat cap era.

[lmm]

10 hours ago, BlakeQuinnAndEggs said:

If majority of fans stopped purchasing tickets and merchandise in a protest against ownership we would end up losing the team all together.

 

It's not our fault at all.

 

 

you have n o proof of that theory

[lmm]

8 hours ago, fanfor42 said:

Bo will be hacked on by NYI fans as early as next year when the honeymoon is over and they have an 8.5M player who gets 60 points a year.

 

 

it is funny and kind of sad

that the Canucks traded for OEL just so they could stay in cap heckdarn for another 6 or 7 years

Bo comes into the league onto an old team that struggles for 9 years, then gets traded to an old team ready to tank

 

I just watched Groundhog Day, will the Canucks, Islanders, OEL, Horvat or the Canuck fans ever wake up beside Andie McDowell?

[RU SERIOUS]

13 hours ago, 250Integra said:

Let me sum it up for you.

 

PROBLEM #1 IN VANCOUVER

[RU SERIOUS]

8 hours ago, Mike Vanderhoek said:

 

There will be empty seats sure, but you aren't going to see major change if say the rink is 65% full for a time. The team is drawing excitement now, an uptick due to the two changes in the Horvat trade and Tocchet hiring we've already seen.

 

Speak for yourself, those two changes have done nothing what-so-ever to raise heartbeats in this city.   Until this teams decides once and for all that they are COMMITED TO A FULL REBUILD and proves that with actions, nothing will change around here.    They need to trade away several more forwards, ALL of our defence except QH  (unless they get an excellent offer for him) and get a descent B/U Goalie.   In other words - GUT - the whole bloody team.    Changing one or two chairs on the deck of the Titanic will do nothing and we've all witnessed what tinkering around the edges here & there has resulted in - in the past.......  Failure & Misery for over 10 years!  Stop foooling yourself!

 

 

 

[McBackup]

13 hours ago, Fanuck said:

On one hand I agree, fans don't deserve over a decade of futility.

 

On the other hand, it's those same fans, or the majority of them anyway,  who have financially supported this club throughout the decade plus of futility sending the message to ownership that he has their support.

 

So is it deserved, or isn't it - I'm not totally sure myself?

 

One thing is very likely - if the rink started to be half full (or worse) on most game days, and stayed that way - there would be some serious changes RIGHT QUICK as FA wouldn't accept that for very long. 

 

If you think you deserve to suffer that's fine. But keep it in the bedroom and don't imply the rest of us do too. 

Edited February 9, 2023 by McBackup

[The Lock]

12 hours ago, Dazzle said:

None of his video introduces anything new. The prospect being highlighted is just a repeat of the ongoing discussion. What I'm criticizing is that the fuel is just being poured on an ongoing fire, all for the clicks.

The thing is, the person runs a youtube channel about hockey. Of course he's going to want clicks. Is this a bad thing? Should he not have a youtube channel just because he wants clicks? What's the person supposed to talk about?

 

Whether you like it or not, this is going to be an ongoing fire for a while. People are going to talk about it and how you react to it is only going to affect yourself in the end. Just something to think about.

[BlakeQuinnAndEggs]

6 hours ago, RU SERIOUS said:

Speak for yourself, those two changes have done nothing what-so-ever to raise heartbeats in this city.   Until this teams decides once and for all that they are COMMITED TO A FULL REBUILD and proves that with actions, nothing will change around here.    They need to trade away several more forwards, ALL of our defence except QH  (unless they get an excellent offer for him) and get a descent B/U Goalie.   In other words - GUT - the whole bloody team.    Changing one or two chairs on the deck of the Titanic will do nothing and we've all witnessed what tinkering around the edges here & there has resulted in - in the past.......  Failure & Misery for over 10 years!  Stop foooling yourself!

 

 

 

I would say they have finally proved that  is their intention by trading their captain who is just entering his prime.

[Dazzle]

1 hour ago, The Lock said:

The thing is, the person runs a youtube channel about hockey. Of course he's going to want clicks. Is this a bad thing? Should he not have a youtube channel just because he wants clicks? What's the person supposed to talk about?

 

Whether you like it or not, this is going to be an ongoing fire for a while. People are going to talk about it and how you react to it is only going to affect yourself in the end. Just something to think about.

See, that's the thing, if someone posts something on here that talks about Mike Gillis being a bad GM, I'd really be curious if that person gets the same type of positive reaction. What I'm highlighting is that once a point aligns with people's beliefs, there isn't a complaint even if it's redundant.

[Dazzle]

19 hours ago, kilgore said:

You really want to use the OEL trade as some kind of counter? 

Guenther may not be a superstar, but he definitely looks like he's going to be a good NHL player. Who will be able to play at a younger age earlier, and any team that gets him will have a valuable ELC for 3 seasons, to ease the cap with other signings.

 

Lets see

To Vancouver

#Canucks D Oliver Ekman-Larsson ($990k retained [12%]) F Conor Garland (RFA)

 

To Arizona

#Yotes 2021 1st round pick (VAN - 9th overall) 2022 2nd round pick 2023 7th round pick F Jay Beagle F Loui Eriksson F Antoine Roussel

 

All for about 13 million in cap space, exchanged between them.  But Vancouver used that up in one year for Garland and OEL. And their contracts continue. While Arizona's 13 mill, is off the books after one season. Who exactly was the team that came out with the bigger cap savings dump again?  I never did understand that reasoning.

 

Garland, is overpaid, but not by a lot. He's smaller, and so may not be a great playoff performer, but he's got a unique set of skills and a good addition.  Especially lately he's putting in a lot of effort.

 

OEL, who by all accounts, Benning was already salivating about over a year before he landed the deal. And kept up his enthusiasm all through the season trying to make a deal for him even as OELs numbers sank further in Arizona.  JB had some kind of peculiar faith in OEL being the rejuvenated star defenceman he just had to have.

 

So he gets his man.  For a 7.3 cap for 6 years. Who I think can play smart with the puck, but only if he's not overloaded with minutes. Then he can be like another chaos (pick your animal) and with Myers its a disaster.

 

So besides losing the cap savings after only one year, JB also takes on this cap hit for 5 more years after for a player who should be playing 5th D minutes right now. 

 

For that privilege we not only lose a promising prospect like Guenther, who racked up 91 points in 59 WHL games last season, and has 15 points in 33 games with the Coyotes this season. But that second round pick last draft, traded to Minnesota and picked by Brackett, who got fired here for showing up Jimmy, hasn't been too shabby either.  Hunter Haight has has 27 points in 23 OHL games as an 18-year-old this season.  I'm almost scared to find out what happened with that 7th round pick JB also threw in.

 

There  is no other way to describe that trade, comparing the value added and subtracted to each team, as a devastating trade for Vancouver. I didn't think Benning could top his 6 million dollar empty net specialist deal, but I think this one tops it.

 

 

The trade is honestly not that bad. Definitely not as bad as people keep making it out to be.

 

Guenther could be a good player or not. It's still really too early. I've mentioned before that Benning's worst trade is the Forsling one. We could've used that guy. As for Guenther, we have a plethora of wingers. We don't really NEED him.

 

I'm curious to see how OEL or Garland does in this offseason under this coaching staff. If they come back unproductive, then we can start having this discussion again. Garland is doing pretty good in this short stint.