Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[DownUndaCanuck]

3 games, 0 points. That's getting concerning now. I want this kid to succeed as much as the Jake-fanboys on CDC but this hasn't been a good tournament for him so far. Say what you want about shots, skating and posts but 0 points is 0 points and at the end of the day that's what matters the most. 

Granted, Canada aren't playing very well, but Jake HAS to be better than this. 

[Gstank29]

Some people need to hear this

Lisen to the Weisbrod interview

[CANUCK-EXPRESS]

32 minutes ago, Gstank29 said:

Some people need to hear this

Lisen to the Weisbrod interview

Which track?

 

Nvm found it

Edited December 30, 2015 by CANUCK-EXPRESS

[Caknuckle Puck]

7 hours ago, McCannon said:

I don't think even evaluating a kid at 19 years old power forward or not makes sense

A month ago, people were calling Baer a bust. Now the same people are saying wow wow look at baer he;s coming alive. He's got what 3, 4 years and AHL experience over Virtanen.

This kid is not Bure lol - he's not going to come in and show what he did in junior immediately for many reasons.

1. The coaches asked him to develop other parts of his game, that's what he focused on its VERY evident

2. He's getting 6-8 minutes a game and no real offensive ice time

3. He's learning to adjust to the speed, responsibility, the league, etc

4. He's YOUNG

5. Look around the league- how many 19 year olds step in and make an impact, I'd guess around 3% if you're lucky and they tend to be the first 2-3 picks 

6. I mentioned his draft peers in another post and yet many bashers here say you can't use others as comparables? LOL Look at his draft year, on a ppg basis he's in the same range excluding Ekblad, Larkin and McCann, and just by making the NHL he's ahead. One person argued that Nylander being in the AHL vs NHL is not fair - of COURSE it is. Is the NHL not harder? If Nylander is SOO much better why isn't he in the NHL then? these people want to cherry pick their arguments. 

Should Virt be in the AHL - probably but I am playing devils advocate on many of my points that refute these bashers and yet they can't handle it because it points out the absurdity of their arguments.

don't worry man I completely agree with you, I wish some of these hockey fans can too instead of bashing every player that does something wrong or takes a little time to develop, Virtanen is my favorite rookie

[Crabcakes]

8 hours ago, McCannon said:

I don't think even evaluating a kid at 19 years old power forward or not makes sense

A month ago, people were calling Baer a bust. Now the same people are saying wow wow look at baer he;s coming alive. He's got what 3, 4 years and AHL experience over Virtanen.

This kid is not Bure lol - he's not going to come in and show what he did in junior immediately for many reasons.

1. The coaches asked him to develop other parts of his game, that's what he focused on its VERY evident

2. He's getting 6-8 minutes a game and no real offensive ice time

3. He's learning to adjust to the speed, responsibility, the league, etc

4. He's YOUNG

5. Look around the league- how many 19 year olds step in and make an impact, I'd guess around 3% if you're lucky and they tend to be the first 2-3 picks 

6. I mentioned his draft peers in another post and yet many bashers here say you can't use others as comparables? LOL Look at his draft year, on a ppg basis he's in the same range excluding Ekblad, Larkin and McCann, and just by making the NHL he's ahead. One person argued that Nylander being in the AHL vs NHL is not fair - of COURSE it is. Is the NHL not harder? If Nylander is SOO much better why isn't he in the NHL then? these people want to cherry pick their arguments. 

Should Virt be in the AHL - probably but I am playing devils advocate on many of my points that refute these bashers and yet they can't handle it because it points out the absurdity of their arguments.

Opinions are subject to scrutiny here on CDC.  Welcome to the jungle.

[Toews]

My primary motivation to coming to this thread is to read about Virtanen's performance. Now there is a secondary attraction, watching McCannon rage at people.  

I have seen a lot of new posters in my time here yet this is the most entertaining start by far.

[Drakrami]

5 hours ago, Derp... said:

I think he is ramping up a bit. This tournament is as much about skill as it is about luck. Creating scoring chances is a better indicator of future success than scoring. See Jesse Pul from last year. Jakes already created more scoring chances than he did last year probably.

He has 9 shots on goal and probably would have scored if he was able to hit the net on 1 of the few that missed towards the end of game.

rofl. 

This guy probably thinks hes not a virgin anymore because hes looked at girls enough. 

[Edlerberry]

12 hours ago, J.R. said:

Pretty sure his shots fine. Didn't he blow it through the net or something, 

so does dion phaneuf and yannick weber

[alfstonker]

Jake IS young but he has been gifted a man's body at 19. For some prospects that can be difficult and put extra pressure on them to automatically have everything else that goes with an NHL/AHL sized player. Specifically the cerebral part, the hockey IQ.

If Jake was 180 lbs and 6'-0" we would not be having this debate.

Anyone who saw Jake in Vancouver would have realised it's his IQ which is immature. Knowing where to go, when to step in, when to pass, when to shoot, when to defend etc. All these things are not so obvious when you are playing against boys with a man's body. They need to be developed, coached and encouraged. I have no doubt it will come but it will take time.

What I don't like is that JB imo has made a mistake with Jake. The kind of mistake Buffalo made with Zack, however it is not too late to rectify it and get him back on track, which should be another season in the minors and at least one season under Green in Utica.

I can blame CDC for all the clamour to put Jake in the NHL but JB should have known better.

I think if handled patiently (like Gaunce, Grenier, Shink) Jake will be a hugely important player for us 3 years down the line but JB must stop this tendency to rush prospects or we risk setting back their confidence and their development.

Ironically you can tell Willie doesn't really like it and he gets vilified on here for it, while JB is praised for forcing young prospects into the team. The fact is Gaunce and maybe Grenier and Jensen/Shink/Archie should have been the players called up to Vancouver but maybe JB wants his own drafts in, I doubt it but who knows.

There is another factor here. After the next draft we will be promoting more players into Utica. If we are not promoting Utica players to Vancouver then we will never know whether they have what it takes or if they are just taking up someone else's place.

Willie is imo a good coach and I would like to see what he could do with Jensen, Gaunce and Grenier. I would have liked to see what he could do with Archie too but we now don't own him so that would be difficult.

You can't cheat the system. JB is trying to accelerate a process just because of the vacuum created in 20-24 year old players caused by Gillis's failures and if he doesn't watch out it could backfire massively. Worse still it could set some good young prospects back in their development.

Edited December 30, 2015 by alfstonker

[73 Percent]

1 hour ago, alfstonker said:

Jake IS young but he has been gifted a man's body at 19. For some prospects that can be difficult and put extra pressure on them to automatically have everything else that goes with an NHL/AHL sized player. Specifically the cerebral part, the hockey IQ.

If Jake was 180 lbs and 6'-0" we would not be having this debate.

Anyone who saw Jake in Vancouver would have realised it's his IQ which is immature. Knowing where to go, when to step in, when to pass, when to shoot, when to defend etc. All these things are not so obvious when you are playing against boys with a man's body. They need to be developed, coached and encouraged. I have no doubt it will come but it will take time.

What I don't like is that JB imo has made a mistake with Jake. The kind of mistake Buffalo made with Zack, however it is not too late to rectify it and get him back on track, which should be another season in the minors and at least one season under Green in Utica.

I can blame CDC for all the clamour to put Jake in the NHL but JB should have known better.

I think if handled patiently (like Gaunce, Grenier, Shink) Jake will be a hugely important player for us 3 years down the line but JB must stop this tendency to rush prospects or we risk setting back their confidence and their development.

Ironically you can tell Willie doesn't really like it and he gets vilified on here for it, while JB is praised for forcing young prospects into the team. The fact is Gaunce and maybe Grenier and Jensen/Shink/Archie should have been the players called up to Vancouver but maybe JB wants his own drafts in, I doubt it but who knows.

There is another factor here. After the next draft we will be promoting more players into Utica. If we are not promoting Utica players to Vancouver then we will never know whether they have what it takes or if they are just taking up someone else's place.

Willie is imo a good coach and I would like to see what he could do with Jensen, Gaunce and Grenier. I would have liked to see what he could do with Archie too but we now don't own him so that would be difficult.

You can't cheat the system. JB is trying to accelerate a process just because of the vacuum created in 20-24 year old players caused by Gillis's failures and if he doesn't watch out it could backfire massively. Worse still it could set some good young prospects back in their development.

Wooooow great post. Nice work man. Fully on board with everything you said here especially the parts about benning and WD. 

Edited December 30, 2015 by Gooseberries

[ice orca]

2 hours ago, alfstonker said:

Jake IS young but he has been gifted a man's body at 19. For some prospects that can be difficult and put extra pressure on them to automatically have everything else that goes with an NHL/AHL sized player. Specifically the cerebral part, the hockey IQ.

If Jake was 180 lbs and 6'-0" we would not be having this debate.

Anyone who saw Jake in Vancouver would have realised it's his IQ which is immature. Knowing where to go, when to step in, when to pass, when to shoot, when to defend etc. All these things are not so obvious when you are playing against boys with a man's body. They need to be developed, coached and encouraged. I have no doubt it will come but it will take time.

What I don't like is that JB imo has made a mistake with Jake. The kind of mistake Buffalo made with Zack, however it is not too late to rectify it and get him back on track, which should be another season in the minors and at least one season under Green in Utica.

I can blame CDC for all the clamour to put Jake in the NHL but JB should have known better.

I think if handled patiently (like Gaunce, Grenier, Shink) Jake will be a hugely important player for us 3 years down the line but JB must stop this tendency to rush prospects or we risk setting back their confidence and their development.

Ironically you can tell Willie doesn't really like it and he gets vilified on here for it, while JB is praised for forcing young prospects into the team. The fact is Gaunce and maybe Grenier and Jensen/Shink/Archie should have been the players called up to Vancouver but maybe JB wants his own drafts in, I doubt it but who knows.

There is another factor here. After the next draft we will be promoting more players into Utica. If we are not promoting Utica players to Vancouver then we will never know whether they have what it takes or if they are just taking up someone else's place.

Willie is imo a good coach and I would like to see what he could do with Jensen, Gaunce and Grenier. I would have liked to see what he could do with Archie too but we now don't own him so that would be difficult.

You can't cheat the system. JB is trying to accelerate a process just because of the vacuum created in 20-24 year old players caused by Gillis's failures and if he doesn't watch out it could backfire massively. Worse still it could set some good young prospects back in their development.

I agree with most of your post but the part about Gillis kind of irks me. We made it to the 7th game of the cup final with some of his moves. He was also all in in 2012 when he tried to get Shane Doan who just about signed here, was also in on the Weber sweep stakes as a hard player, had an offer sheet ready but couldn't compete with Philly [ Comcast corp.] He also got us Utica a great move on his part. When and if Benning gets us into that 2-3 year window for a cup run he will mortgage some of the future for pieces to bolster the club as well.

[Toews]

I wonder if the reluctance to send him back to junior stems from some acrimony between the Canucks and the Hitmen over his role last year. It is not uncommon for NHL teams to have a say in a prospect's development. Perhaps the Canucks had some concerns but the Hitmen were not willing to accommodate? I am not jumping to conclusions and I realize this is pure speculation. But based on Benning's insistence that they want to keep Virtanen close, I do think there might be some discord there. Although I doubt either party will ever discuss any of this explicitly.

1 minute ago, ice orca said:

I agree with most of your post but the part about Gillis kind of irks me. We made it to the 7th game of the cup final with some of his moves. He was also all in in 2012 when he tried to get Shane Doan who just about signed here, was also in on the Weber sweep stakes as a hard player, had an offer sheet ready but couldn't compete with Philly [ Comcast corp.] He also got us Utica a great move on his part. When and if Benning gets us into that 2-3 year window for a cup run he will mortgage some of the future for pieces to bolster the club as well.

I agree with you in part on this. Gillis did mortgage the future to try to push the team over the top. Despite that, he should have done a better job with the picks that he did hold onto. The Canucks had a run of something like 3 drafts that yielded nothing and that is unacceptable.

David Poole has mortgaged the Preds future every time in order to go for it but they haven't been nearly as broke as the Canucks were.

[ice orca]

2 minutes ago, Toews said:

I wonder if the reluctance to send him back to junior stems from some acrimony between the Canucks and the Hitmen over his role last year. It is not uncommon for NHL teams to have a say in a prospect's development. Perhaps the Canucks had some concerns but the Hitmen were not willing to accommodate? I am not jumping to conclusions and I realize this is pure speculation. But based on Benning's insistence that they want to keep Virtanen close, I do think there might be some discord there. Although I doubt either party will ever discuss any of this explicitly.

I agree with you in part on this. Gillis did mortgage the future to try to push the team over the top. Despite that, he should have done a better job with the picks that he did hold onto. The Canucks had a run of something like 3 drafts that yielded nothing and that is unacceptable.

David Poole has mortgaged the Preds future every time in order to go for it but they haven't been nearly as broke as the Canucks were.

Poile hasn't got the Preds anywhere near the cup final tho. I agree about Gillis drafting but he did clean house and drafted decent in his last 2 years.

[MJDDawg]

Jake will be NHL ready when he:

• learns to stop doing those big looping turns he's been doing out of the corners, ending up in no man's land out near the blue line.
• starts to work harder when trying to recover pucks in puck battles in the corners, behind the net...etc. Right now all I'm seeing is him getting near puck battles but backing away and passively waiting for pucks to squirt loose. His teammates appear to be working much harder at retrieving pucks and he's been much more passive in waiting for pucks to come to him. And when it does come to him, not much has happened.
• regularly starts going to the front of the net as soon as his team has possession of the puck. He's not a Dylan Strome or Mitch Marner who can stickhandle and dart in and out of tight spots Yes he can skate, but he has to realize that he can give other players space by aggressively going to the net.

I've been a bit concerned watching his play during this tournament, especially the first two periods yesterday. Much too passive and not enough battle level. But that third period he seemed to have his mojo back and the coaches got him on the ice much more regularly because of it. It made me feel a whole lot better about him. He was using his speed, his body and going to the net hard. Exactly what he'll have to do on a more consistent basis if he wants a regular NHL gig.

As a result, I've come around to agreeing with those saying that going back to Calgary after the tourney then spending a year or two in Utica might be better for his longer term development.

 

Edited December 30, 2015 by MJDDawg

[Edlerberry]

1 hour ago, ice orca said:

I agree with most of your post but the part about Gillis kind of irks me. We made it to the 7th game of the cup final with some of his moves. He was also all in in 2012 when he tried to get Shane Doan who just about signed here, was also in on the Weber sweep stakes as a hard player, had an offer sheet ready but couldn't compete with Philly [ Comcast corp.] He also got us Utica a great move on his part. When and if Benning gets us into that 2-3 year window for a cup run he will mortgage some of the future for pieces to bolster the club as well.

thats not what happened. he knew a massive multiyear offer sheet would be matched, which is why he offered a max 1yr all-bonus contract - no way nashville gives up 4 1sts for a year of weber. it was the only way...

 

... and then along came holmgren... what a beauty...

 

 

[ice orca]

1 minute ago, Edlerberry said:

thats not what happened. he knew a massive multiyear offer sheet would be matched, which is why he offered a max 1yr all-bonus contract - no way nashville gives up 4 1sts for a year of weber. it was the only way...

 

... and then along came holmgren... what a beauty...

 

 

I thought it was an offer sheet, my mistake but he tried to get him anyhoo.

[aGENT]

4 hours ago, alfstonker said:

What I don't like is that JB imo has made a mistake with Jake. The kind of mistake Buffalo made with Zack, however it is not too late to rectify it and get him back on track, which should be another season in the minors and at least one season under Green in Utica.

I can blame CDC for all the clamour to put Jake in the NHL but JB should have known better.

I think if handled patiently (like Gaunce, Grenier, Shink) Jake will be a hugely important player for us 3 years down the line but JB must stop this tendency to rush prospects

I don't believe this is accurate. I firmly believe Jake was kept up to largely have more control of his development as the primary objective. Secondarily, two give him a "taste" and show him where be needs to get to. Thirdly, to see if he could jump in and go from serviceable bottom 6 to excelling bottom 6 in his 40 games. Then make a call from there. 

I REALLY don't think there's any petty, selfish, shortsighted motivation at work here to "rush" him. 

I also believe he will likely spend some (if not most/all) of next year in Utica short of some miraculous development over the summer. 

People need to be patient. 

Edited December 30, 2015 by J.R.

[Edlerberry]

14 minutes ago, ice orca said:

I thought it was an offer sheet, my mistake but he tried to get him anyhoo.

it was lol, its just that actually he had the only real chance of signing him and weber knew that, but weber wanted to be locked in for 13 years 'cause the rules were changing and that meant nashville matches. in truth his choice was with van but sign a shorter deal after cba, or lock in an insane contract thanks to holmgren and force nashvilles hand

Edited December 30, 2015 by Edlerberry

[babych]

6 hours ago, Toews said:

My primary motivation to coming to this thread is to read about Virtanen's performance. Now there is a secondary attraction, watching McCannon rage at people.  

I have seen a lot of new posters in my time here yet this is the most entertaining start by far.

Come for the Virtanen talk, stay for the McCannon rage.

[Warhippy]

10 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

3 games, 0 points. That's getting concerning now. I want this kid to succeed as much as the Jake-fanboys on CDC but this hasn't been a good tournament for him so far. Say what you want about shots, skating and posts but 0 points is 0 points and at the end of the day that's what matters the most. 

Granted, Canada aren't playing very well, but Jake HAS to be better than this. 

Based on what exactly?

 

0 points in 3 games?  

 

Matthews a supposed generational talent only has 2 points in 2 games.  Debrincat 0 points.  Sanheim, McKeown, Fleury, Hickey, Perlini all 0 points.

 

Stop putting so much emphasis on a frigging WJC.  Especially over 3 games.  This does not now nor has it EVER dictated what kind of career a player will have.  The amount of players who have lit up the WJC only to do less than nothing in their careers is massive.  

 

So if you're concerned, I for am happy.  It gives you something to do besides post endless line and defensive pairings.

 

But this is for everyone.  If you're basing a barely 19 year old kids entire career off of 3 whole games in the WJC, less than 40 games in the NHL than you need to go find a frigging hobby.

 

In fact, here's some fun stats.  75 games played, 12 goals, 21 assists -10.  This player was famously quoted as being a waste for his supposed skill and was almost traded halfway through his rookie season for a skilled Islander.

 

Props to you if you can guess the player, bigger props if you got to watch his rookie season.  And further props if you understand the point  am trying to make.

 

Simply put, if you think 3 WJC games will tell you everything about a players career, you're the exact kind of guy who was happy with the Hodgson/Schroeder picks as well right?