Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[Ballisticsports.]

3 hours ago, CRAZY_4_NAZZY said:

Not sure why the Vancouver Brass are trying to force players to be something they aren't.

 

It seems to be clear that Virtanen wants to be a pure bread scorer over being a ploughhorse type of guy.  I get they are trying to develop good habits in playing a complete game, but maybe trying to bulldoze every guy and be physically challenging/intimidating isn't exactly what Virtanen wants to be.  He was physical in junior because he was physically more developed than the rest of the teenagers in the WHL, so he used it to his advantage, but you look out there now, he looks hesitant to make big hits or to use that style of game now.  Attribute that to either he is leary of reinjuring his shoulder or just doesn't want to engage in that kind of physicality now, but they need to start giving him some looks with more offensively inclined guys and try him out in offensive situations.  Im not saying he can't do those things, but it apparently seems to be he doesn't want to do those things.  If he isn't going to be a bruiser, utilize his speed, shot, and power in a different way. 

 

It just looks like the same situation with Tryamkin, trying to force him into a style of play "Pronger style" which he wasn't remotely comfortable doing.  Could be the same for Jake, you just look at where his eyes are at, and it doesn't scream wanting to initiate that mean streak.

 

 

lol

When i read this

It sounded like Jake was/is a bully while growing up playing hockey

Didn't mind being the bully, when he was the biggest and got drafted for that style

But, now as you say

When at the top league, everyone else is faster, bigger, conditioned, and bully tactics won't work and step up to the once bully,  and like in school, when the bully is confronted ...

Lol, that my take on your story

 

[coastal.view]

5 hours ago, CRAZY_4_NAZZY said:

Not sure why the Vancouver Brass are trying to force players to be something they aren't.

 

It seems to be clear that Virtanen wants to be a pure bread scorer over being a ploughhorse type of guy.  I get they are trying to develop good habits in playing a complete game, but maybe trying to bulldoze every guy and be physically challenging/intimidating isn't exactly what Virtanen wants to be.  He was physical in junior because he was physically more developed than the rest of the teenagers in the WHL, so he used it to his advantage, but you look out there now, he looks hesitant to make big hits or to use that style of game now.  Attribute that to either he is leary of reinjuring his shoulder or just doesn't want to engage in that kind of physicality now, but they need to start giving him some looks with more offensively inclined guys and try him out in offensive situations.  Im not saying he can't do those things, but it apparently seems to be he doesn't want to do those things.  If he isn't going to be a bruiser, utilize his speed, shot, and power in a different way. 

 

It just looks like the same situation with Tryamkin, trying to force him into a style of play "Pronger style" which he wasn't remotely comfortable doing.  Could be the same for Jake, you just look at where his eyes are at, and it doesn't scream wanting to initiate that mean streak.

 

 

is any other young player getting the same level of special attention as virt?

his game is not fully nhl ready

there is an effort to groom him so he can be reliable and consistent and provide some productive value to the team

it's not a matter of just turning him loose to play his game

his game does not work at this level and has to be modified for the pro game

why do you think he can just play at a high offensive level on this team???

 

the team did not hold bo back.. they worked to groom him, he played 4th line, then 3rd. and now has taken over the 1st line

bo earned his stripes and his promotions through dedicated hard work....... we all saw his development

brock almost immediately earned 1st line status, he was ready right out of the chute.. he was not held back when it was clear he was ready

 

but you think the team is somehow picking on virt?

he has shown he has that same ability as brock and bo? you think so?

but the team does not care

and is holding him back in your view

really?  you believe this ?

Edited February 1, 2018 by coastal.view

[Westcoasting]

I would be surprised if Jake is still a Canuck a year from now. 

 

[Ballisticsports.]

3 hours ago, captainhorvat said:

Since jake has to clear waivers next season. I can see benning deal him at the deadline or at the draft. Im sure management and coaching staff have realized that he doesnt get it and its better now then to wait.

Yes

 

I can see how having to clear waivers, would deter a team from showing patience

How can you show patience and wait till he is 25 (as his defenders want to give him ?)

 

If he is on your roster and not doing as is asked - You now have a player controlling the team for fear of waiving him for nothing in return (Imagine the heat on Benning  of asset mismanagement if we lost a 6th overall for nothing)

In hindsight, maybe it was not a good idea giving him the 10 games and full year in NHL instead of juniors after all?

 

Also, how much can you get in a trade for him now, when other teams will be having the same concerns with his waiver status?

 

Tough decisions right now to be made with him

I don't see how they will come out good in this (unless he pays more attention to Bo And Boesers commitments to excel)

They will never get a 6th pick for him (so will be slammed for whatever they get in return)

They keep him and he  takes up a roster spot and they aren't happy with his play and feel they want to promote someone who is, then they risk losing him for nothing?

Maybe keep him on the roster and hope for the best (especially, if the trade return is insignificant) is the only option now?

 

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, ba;;isticsports said:

Yes

 

I can see how having to clear waivers, would deter a team from showing patience

How can you show patience and wait till he is 25 (as his defenders want to give him ?)

 

If he is on your roster and not doing as is asked - You now have a player controlling the team for fear of waiving him for nothing in return (Imagine the heat on Benning  of asset mismanagement if we lost a 6th overall for nothing)

In hindsight, maybe it was not a good idea giving him the 10 games and full year in NHL instead of juniors after all?

 

Also, how much can you get in a trade for him now, when other teams will be having the same concerns with his waiver status?

 

Tough decisions right now to be made with him

I don't see how they will come out good in this (unless he pays more attention to Bo And Boesers commitments to excel)

They will never get a 6th pick for him (so will be slammed for whatever they get in return)

They keep him and he  takes up a roster spot and they aren't happy with his play and feel they want to promote someone who is, then they risk losing him for nothing?

Maybe keep him on the roster and hope for the best (especially, if the trade return is insignificant) is the only option now?

 

Stalled prospects with potential seem to return a low first to a high second, depending on the potential that prospect still has.  We gave up two high seconds: one for Baer, and one for Vey.  Or you can trade stalled guy for stalled guy, like Shinkaruk for Granlund.  I see Jake’s value at a high second/ low first for a pick, and a guy like Delcolle (sp?) on the Islanders for a stalled guy.  

[CRAZY_4_NAZZY]

6 hours ago, coastal.view said:

is any other young player getting the same level of special attention as virt?

his game is not fully nhl ready

there is an effort to groom him so he can be reliable and consistent and provide some productive value to the team

it's not a matter of just turning him loose to play his game

his game does not work at this level and has to be modified for the pro game

why do you think he can just play at a high offensive level on this team???

 

the team did not hold bo back.. they worked to groom him, he played 4th line, then 3rd. and now has taken over the 1st line

bo earned his stripes and his promotions through dedicated hard work....... we all saw his development

brock almost immediately earned 1st line status, he was ready right out of the chute.. he was not held back when it was clear he was ready

 

but you think the team is somehow picking on virt?

he has shown he has that same ability as brock and bo? you think so?

but the team does not care

and is holding him back in your view

really?  you believe this ?

 

Im not saying that Virtanen should be given special attention, its the style of play that the Canucks brass want him to be, but it is clear that Virtanen doesn't want to engage in that style of game.

 

They want him to be a bruiser and a rough and tumble type of powerforward, but the fact is maybe thats not the way Jake wants to be known as.  Like i've said before possibly his shoulder injuries have gotten him spooked to throw it out again.  If you watch the games, Virtanen generally stays clear of making the big hits and the grinding game.  You see him let up on hits, or choose to circle back instead of finishing the check.  Its just an observation, meaning that he is likely not being utilized to his full potential of skills.  Never did I say Virtanen deserves special treatment or should be treated like Bo or Brock...not sure how you deduced my post to that.

[Phil_314]

Would like to see Jake get tethered with Bo and Vanek.  Bo and Thomas definitely have the straight-line speed to complement Jake's and the vision to set him up so hopefully he can start finishing off chances.  Could see it already, Bo on the rush dishing it to Jake who's flying alongside him and Jake finishing off those chances.  Hope it becomes reality.

[aGENT]

12 hours ago, CRAZY_4_NAZZY said:

 

Im not saying that Virtanen should be given special attention, its the style of play that the Canucks brass want him to be, but it is clear that Virtanen doesn't want to engage in that style of game.

 

They want him to be a bruiser and a rough and tumble type of powerforward, but the fact is maybe thats not the way Jake wants to be known as.  Like i've said before possibly his shoulder injuries have gotten him spooked to throw it out again.  If you watch the games, Virtanen generally stays clear of making the big hits and the grinding game.  You see him let up on hits, or choose to circle back instead of finishing the check.  Its just an observation, meaning that he is likely not being utilized to his full potential of skills.  Never did I say Virtanen deserves special treatment or should be treated like Bo or Brock...not sure how you deduced my post to that.

I think they just want him to have a well rounded and consistent game. He's still working on those things, particularly the consistency, and has time to figure them out.

 

Would it be better if he had them figured out sooner than later? Absolutely. 

[N4ZZY]

55 minutes ago, aGENT said:

I think they just want him to have a well rounded and consistent game. He's still working on those things, particularly the consistency, and has time to figure them out.

 

Would it be better if he had them figured out sooner than later? Absolutely. 

Yeah. I think a lot of people in Canuck Nation wanted Jake to have gotten his game together almost right away shortly after he was drafted. But I honestly think with Desjardins, and a rookie management team (or fairly inexperienced), mishandled Jake to some degree. I think there is a lost of confidence in Jake's game, and Green is attempting to work with him as best he can. But at the end of the day, Jake's gotta take his boostraps and get back up! He's a polarizing figure to be sure. Just look at this topic on Jake - 1006 pages last count, and that's absolutely crazy. No other Canuck on these boards comes even close. 

 

I still am holding up hope for Virtanen. I think if he can get his game and confidence together even somewhat , he'd be a decent player on this team. If he can get his game and confidence together completely, he's a star without a doubt. Time will tell. But in hindsight, he should have stayed in Junior to dominate, and then after that,  be brought up to the AHL. He's not a Horvat, and I think this fanbase was so starving for more star players, that we projected that on to him. Wasn't Jake's fault he was drafted 6th overall. That was management's decision. He's got oozing talent, it's just a matter of him "clicking" and "getting it" - if he does. Watch out! If he doesn't, I can see management eventually trading him, and another franchise taking a chance on him, as a reclamation project. We'd likely get a second round pick for him, maybe a third at that point. a loss no matter how you slice it. 

 

 

[aGENT]

2 minutes ago, N4ZZY said:

Yeah. I think a lot of people in Canuck Nation wanted Jake to have gotten his game together almost right away shortly after he was drafted. But I honestly think with Desjardins, and a rookie management team (or fairly inexperienced), mishandled Jake to some degree. I think there is a lost of confidence in Jake's game, and Green is attempting to work with him as best he can. But at the end of the day, Jake's gotta take his boostraps and get back up! He's a polarizing figure to be sure. Just look at this topic on Jake - 1006 pages last count, and that's absolutely crazy. No other Canuck on these boards comes even close. 

 

I still am holding up hope for Virtanen. I think if he can get his game and confidence together even somewhat , he'd be a decent player on this team. If he can get his game and confidence together completely, he's a star without a doubt. Time will tell. But in hindsight, he should have stayed in Junior to dominate, and then after that,  be brought up to the AHL. He's not a Horvat, and I think this fanbase was so starving for more star players, that we projected that on to him. Wasn't Jake's fault he was drafted 6th overall. That was management's decision. He's got oozing talent, it's just a matter of him "clicking" and "getting it" - if he does. Watch out! If he doesn't, I can see management eventually trading him, and another franchise taking a chance on him, as a reclamation project. We'd likely get a second round pick for him, maybe a third at that point. a loss no matter how you slice it. 

 

 

 

I honestly think he wasn't getting the coaching he needed in CAL/junior (some of that being on Jake/his maturity as well). And that keeping him here, even with hindsight, was probably the right call. I think they could certainly have handled that year better though and done a better job ensuring he was working on the right things, training the right ways, a more strict play vs practice schedule etc.

 

And some (most?) of the rest is on Jake, not coaches etc. He's simply not a mature person yet, and he was certainly less so a couple years ago. That, more than anything, including his supposed lack of IQ (he's no Sedin but he's not completely deficient either), is what's held him back thus far IMO. He's had to mature to even get to this point which is still not where he needs to be. That has affected his training, his consistency, his confidence etc, etc, etc.

 

IMO, the argument is, will he ever mature/mature fast enough to realize his potential? He has the skill set, he only lacks the maturity and hence the consistency, confidence etc to actually put it together. That's not to say I think he'll be a top 3 forward if/when he matures, I think he likely falls in the middle 6 and at worst bottom 6 depending on how much he 'figures it out' and excels (or doesn't).

 

I also feel strongly that he's always been a complimentary player and not a play driver (not dissimilar to Eriksson's issues IMO). Right now we lack play drivers on the Canucks (as we did his season in Utica). People expecting him to produce offense in that scenario are bound to be disappointed. That should improve as we get more guys like Gaudette, Pettersson, Dahlen etc on the team. Guys who drive play.

[Rob_Zepp]

19 hours ago, Westcoasting said:

I would be surprised if Jake is still a Canuck a year from now. 

 

[Westcoasting]

2 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

You think he's here for the long term? I think he might be traded just for the fact of media and fans constantly whining about him. Much like other top 5 picks who don't turn out to be much right away, they seem to get shuffled off to other teams.

[Gaudette Celly]

1 hour ago, Westcoasting said:

You think he's here for the long term? I think he might be traded just for the fact of media and fans constantly whining about him. Much like other top 5 picks who don't turn out to be much right away, they seem to get shuffled off to other teams.

That'll soon leave us with about 3-4 prospects.

[Rob_Zepp]

1 hour ago, Westcoasting said:

You think he's here for the long term? I think he might be traded just for the fact of media and fans constantly whining about him. Much like other top 5 picks who don't turn out to be much right away, they seem to get shuffled off to other teams.

I think trading away his combination of size, skill and speed before it has a chance with a really good team would be a massive mistake.   He seems to be the type of player who had little coaching and could dominate based on his combination and then hit pros and all of of sudden needed a reset.  He has looked like an NHL player this year.   He still seems to be overthinking as it isn't coming naturally yet - that takes time.   I am old enough to remember Kesler's first few seasons and though wasn't a huge Canuck follower remember wondering what Canucks saw in him as he could skate but did little else.   Until Virtanen is at least 23 or 24, he is far too valuable in terms of potential to give up on him.   He isn't hurting the team (in fact, one of the most responsible players on the team and stats back that up) and is chipping in offense here and there at a rate /60 mins that is pretty respectful (roughly same as Cam Atkinson, Nick Ritchie, Brock Nelson and several other similars).   

 

I am just saying, I would be surprised if management of your team was that short-sighted to give upon him when he is really made some nice strides.   

[Westcoasting]

29 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

I think trading away his combination of size, skill and speed before it has a chance with a really good team would be a massive mistake.   He seems to be the type of player who had little coaching and could dominate based on his combination and then hit pros and all of of sudden needed a reset.  He has looked like an NHL player this year.   He still seems to be overthinking as it isn't coming naturally yet - that takes time.   I am old enough to remember Kesler's first few seasons and though wasn't a huge Canuck follower remember wondering what Canucks saw in him as he could skate but did little else.   Until Virtanen is at least 23 or 24, he is far too valuable in terms of potential to give up on him.   He isn't hurting the team (in fact, one of the most responsible players on the team and stats back that up) and is chipping in offense here and there at a rate /60 mins that is pretty respectful (roughly same as Cam Atkinson, Nick Ritchie, Brock Nelson and several other similars).   

 

I am just saying, I would be surprised if management of your team was that short-sighted to give upon him when he is really made some nice strides.   

I am not sure why you are referring to my team... i actually like Jake, what i am saying is that so many teams get rid of an underperforming high draft pick within the first few years and don't keep them long term. I think the Canucks will be at that point within the next year. 

[Westcoasting]

56 minutes ago, Hutton Wink said:

That'll soon leave us with about 3-4 prospects.

What other top picks are you talking about?

 

[Rob_Zepp]

5 hours ago, Westcoasting said:

I am not sure why you are referring to my team... i actually like Jake, what i am saying is that so many teams get rid of an underperforming high draft pick within the first few years and don't keep them long term. I think the Canucks will be at that point within the next year. 

You seem to be a Canuck fan hence I am guessing it is your team.   Teams that give up on high picks more often than not regret it.   Your team has done this very thing many times in its history.   It would be unfortunate if your Canucks did that with this player next year.   This night, for example, he was an excellent player who created chances, played with purpose and was very strong positionally even when his line-mates appeared to not have that same commitment.

[-AJ-]

With two assists in his last two games, Jake is now at 12 points, one behind his career best of 13 set in his rookie season, but in 10 less games. His +/- has also improved from -7 to -1 since then. The improvements are small and subtle, but they're there.

[reyezone]

Real nice, well rounded game by Virt against Chicago. Hos speed and anticipation were noticable on the defensive end and transfered into some nice chances. This is what it looks like when 18 plays from instinct and doesn’t second guess every play. 

[Westcoasting]

12 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

You seem to be a Canuck fan hence I am guessing it is your team.   Teams that give up on high picks more often than not regret it.   Your team has done this very thing many times in its history.   It would be unfortunate if your Canucks did that with this player next year.   This night, for example, he was an excellent player who created chances, played with purpose and was very strong positionally even when his line-mates appeared to not have that same commitment.

Yes he had a really good game last night  I think the way i worded my earlier post got you off track from my thoughts a bit... it wasn't about giving up on a pick, more of a lateral move with another team and both teams and players  get new starts. Not necessarily about lack of production either. A lot of times you have to give up a prospect like that in package deals for another player etc.