Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[messier's_elbow]

On 2017-05-30 at 10:59 AM, dpn1 said:

I still think Jake will be fine.  On a forum like this people have to be prepared to hear positive and negative stuff on a player because nobody is perfect and everyone has areas to improve in.  Granted sometimes I think people go a little to far with the Jake bashing but when people are passionate about their team people will over do it sometimes.  We are all here because we care about our team.  Be careful not to judge people too harshly for passion.

Most people are mad cause they passed on future stars Nylander and Ehlers. Most of it isn't Virtanens fault. He needs to mature though and who knows how long that will take. 

[dpn1]

It is a bit frustrating to discuss this because no matter where you are on this topic, there is no way to resolve it until we see how he does at camp.  I can speculate that he is in the NHL next year and scores 15 goals and you may say he is in the AHL lucky if he gets a call up.  This is a bit frustrating.  I want an answer sooner. 

[guntrix]

10 hours ago, Toews said:

I am pretty sure he prefers to live in reality instead. If you want to have a career in the NHL you have to do more than just hit and block shots. That can't be the extent of Jake's "game", even 4th liners now days are expected to produce.

 

Evidently not because Goldobin certainly didn't look mediocre in the 3 games he went down to Comets for. He scored 4 goals in 3 games with the Comets, Jake scored 9 goals in 65 games. Nearly half of Jake's goal output and Jake played 62 more games.

 

Jayson Megna and Michael Chaput made the Canucks roster. Not only would they make the Canucks they would be on the top line with Bo.

 

Granlund and Baerstchi aren't much bigger than Ehlers, how much do they get pushed around on a team like the Canucks? To an extent all smaller skilled players get mugged in the NHL. Just take a look at what has happened to Crosby in this playoffs. They learn to play through it though, just because Ehlers plays with Laine and Scheifele doesn't mean he faces less abuse. Neither of those guys are big time fighters either, nor do they have much sandpaper to their game.

 

Now you have entered the realm of the fanciful. Nylander has excelled at every level of hockey he has played at. He didn't suddenly improve because he played with Matthews. He always had the talent to be this good. If playing with a generational talent made a player significantly better Dane Fox would be sniping goals for the Canucks right now.

 

9 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

AHL level.

 

5th - Dal Colle 75 gp 41 points .55ppg

Jake virtanen 65 gp 19 points .29ppg

7th -  Fleury 69gp 26 points .42ppg

8th - Nylander 38 gp 45 points 1.18ppg

9th - Ehlers didn't play

10th - Ritchie 38 gp 30 points .789ppg

11th - Fiala 66 gp 50 points .757ppg

12th- Perlini 17 gp 19 points 1.12ppg

13th- Vrana 49 gp 36 points .734ppg

14th - Honka 50 gp 31 points .68ppg

15th Larkin didn't play

16th - Milano 63 gp 47 points .75ppg

17th - Sanhiem 76gp  37points .49ppg

18th - Tuch 57gp 37 points .65ppg

19th - DeAngelo 69gp 43 points .623ppg

20th - Schmaltz 12 gp 9 points .75ppg

21st - Fabbri didn't play

22nd - Kapanen 43gp 43 points 1.0ppg

23 Bleackley 45gp 10 points .22ppg

24th - McCann 42gp 25 points .595ppg

25th Pastrnak didn't play

26th - Scherbak 66gp 41 points .62ppg

27th - Goldobin 49gp 45 points .918ppg

28th - Ho sang 50gp 36 points .78ppg

29th Kempe 46 gp 20 points .434ppg

30th - Quenneville 58gp 46 points .79ppg

 

 

Only one player in the entire first round in his draft year has worse offensive production than him at the AHL level and Bleackley was such a bust that he got redrafted..  Everyone else is able to put up points, and they are doing so at quite a bit of a large rate than Jake......Hope the kid can turn it around but he's got a long long way to go and a lot to prove.  At this point he's closer to a massive disappointment than a success for the team,  he needs a massive summer of training, because it's contract season at the end of next year.

 

 

Damn. Couldn't have put it any better. 

 

Inb4 the passion-filled, rose-coloured response with little to no substance.

[Spitfire_Spiky]

9 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

AHL level.

 

5th - Dal Colle 75 gp 41 points .55ppg

Jake virtanen 65 gp 19 points .29ppg

7th -  Fleury 69gp 26 points .42ppg

8th - Nylander 38 gp 45 points 1.18ppg

9th - Ehlers didn't play

10th - Ritchie 38 gp 30 points .789ppg

11th - Fiala 66 gp 50 points .757ppg

12th- Perlini 17 gp 19 points 1.12ppg

13th- Vrana 49 gp 36 points .734ppg

14th - Honka 50 gp 31 points .68ppg

15th Larkin didn't play

16th - Milano 63 gp 47 points .75ppg

17th - Sanhiem 76gp  37points .49ppg

18th - Tuch 57gp 37 points .65ppg

19th - DeAngelo 69gp 43 points .623ppg

20th - Schmaltz 12 gp 9 points .75ppg

21st - Fabbri didn't play

22nd - Kapanen 43gp 43 points 1.0ppg

23 Bleackley 45gp 10 points .22ppg

24th - McCann 42gp 25 points .595ppg

25th Pastrnak didn't play

26th - Scherbak 66gp 41 points .62ppg

27th - Goldobin 49gp 45 points .918ppg

28th - Ho sang 50gp 36 points .78ppg

29th Kempe 46 gp 20 points .434ppg

30th - Quenneville 58gp 46 points .79ppg

 

 

Only one player in the entire first round in his draft year has worse offensive production than him at the AHL level and Bleackley was such a bust that he got redrafted..  Everyone else is able to put up points, and they are doing so at quite a bit of a large rate than Jake......Hope the kid can turn it around but he's got a long long way to go and a lot to prove.  At this point he's closer to a massive disappointment than a success for the team,  he needs a massive summer of training, because it's contract season at the end of next year.

 

 

Those numbers speak volumes as to his lack of progression compared to his draft class. By no means did Jake have the ideal linemates in Utica to help him put up points but he should of been able to produce more then he has. Hopefully another year in Utica playing on the top line with some skilled linemates will help him get his offense going. 

[aGENT]

Nobody's saying Jake has lit the AHL on fire offensively and certainly still has work to do/a lot to prove but this page wreaks of stat watching and a lack of context. As usual.

 

Carry on CDC.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

43 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Nobody's saying Jake has lit the AHL on fire offensively and certainly still has work to do/a lot to prove but this page wreaks of stat watching and a lack of context. As usual.

 

Carry on CDC.

Nobody is writing Jake off as a bust (at least i'm not) but people are and have the right to be extremely disappointed with his progression since being drafted. 

 

To say you haven't be disappointed is just ignoring the reality that he hasn't transition into the pro game as smoothly as the entire first round of his draft class. 

 

Expecting him to be a 60+ points player 3 years post draft like Nylander and Ehlers is unrealistic, but expecting him to have shown some signs of consistent NHL quality progression is a very low bar for a 6th overall pick, and he hasn't done that yet. 

[aGENT]

14 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Nobody is writing Jake off as a bust (at least i'm not) but people are and have the right to be extremely disappointed with his progression since being drafted. 

 

To say you haven't be disappointed is just ignoring the reality that he hasn't transition into the pro game as smoothly as the entire first round of his draft class. 

 

Expecting him to be a 60+ points player 3 years post draft like Nylander and Ehlers is unrealistic, but expecting him to have shown some signs of consistent NHL quality progression is a very low bar for a 6th overall pick, and he hasn't done that yet. 

 

I WAS disappointed with Jake last fall. He needed to mature, get in proper shape and become a pro.

 

He appears to have gotten on the right track there for the most part. And despite not putting up numbers, I think he had a good year doing/learning the things he needed to, to get his career back on track.

 

So I'm back at 'even' with expectations for him. Now he needs to come to camp and at least look like a serious threat to get a spot on the big club. Even if he heads to Utica (which I'd actually prefer barring him absolutely blowing the doors off), he then needs to take steps in his offensive game. 

 

If those things don't happen, by all means disappointment can creep back in.

 

Right now, people should be in holding pattern IMO.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

18 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

I WAS disappointed with Jake last fall. He needed to mature, get in proper shape and become a pro.

 

He appears to have gotten on the right track there for the most part. And despite not putting up numbers, I think he had a good year doing/learning the things he needed to, to get his career back on track.

 

So I'm back at 'even' with expectations for him. Now he needs to come to camp and at least look like a serious threat to get a spot on the big club. Even if he heads to Utica (which I'd actually prefer barring him absolutely blowing the doors off), he then needs to take steps in his offensive game. 

 

If those things don't happen, by all means disappointment can creep back in.

 

Right now, people should be in holding pattern IMO.

The odd few games to end a season doesn't put him at even. That's some pretty low expectations. If that was Jensen gaunce or shinkaruk maybe but Not for a 6th overall pick. Jake needs to make the team out of camp and contribute at the NHL level or be the best player in Utica game in and game out next year before he's even close to be back at even. 

[aGENT]

5 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

The odd few games to end a season doesn't put him at even. That's some pretty low expectations. If that was Jensen gaunce or shinkaruk maybe but Not for a 6th overall pick. Jake needs to make the team out of camp and contribute at the NHL level or be the best player in Utica game in and game out next year before he's even close to be back at even. 

Nothing to do with 'the odd few games to end a season'.

 

He worked hard, got in shape, dedicated to his craft, put his head down and did what he was told to get better, appears to have matured and learned to play a puck pursuing, constant attack/pressure game on a checking line for most of the year.

 

I don't particularly care what his stat lines said in any of the games. He needed to get in to shape and learn to play non lazy, non bad junior habits hockey. Now that he has that base, he can build off of it.

Edited June 1, 2017 by J.R.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

Just now, J.R. said:

Nothing to do with 'the odd few games to end a season'.

 

He worked hard, got in shape, dedicated to his craft, put his head down and did what he was told to get better, appears to have matured and learned to play a puck pursuing, constant attack/pressure game on a checking line for most of the year.

I don't particularly care what his stat lines said in any of the games. He needed to get in to shape and learn to play non lazy, non bad junior habits hockey. Now that he has that base he can build off of it.

Coming to camp in shape is a pro expectation, i don't know in what world you think that's called progression. 

 

Any player not a 6th overall pick would have had the cord cut by now.  This is his summer to shut up and prove his worth because another "disappointing" year is likely the end for him in Vancvouer.  There's only so much individual focus a team can afford to give before they award someone else that opportunity.. 

[aGENT]

3 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Coming to camp in shape is a pro expectation, i don't know in what world you think that's called progression. 

 

Any player not a 6th overall pick would have had the cord cut by now.  This is his summer to shut up and prove his worth because another "disappointing" year is likely the end for him in Vancvouer.  There's only so much individual focus a team can afford to give before they award someone else that opportunity.. 

Hence the past disappointment.

 

I don't think anyone has disputed he needed to mature and become a pro. Now that he appears to have taken steps there, how about we see what the kid with the NHL shot, skating and physicality can bring now that he's matured and realized he's actually going to have to work to do this?

[SilentSam]

The cliche' .. "What difference a Summer can make" , speaks volumes with Jake this year.

Watching some of his late season hilights, and knowing he dropped to a good skating weight shows his integrity of mind is now here.. hopefully his body now follows.

Giver Jake!

[guntrix]

5 hours ago, J.R. said:

Nothing to do with 'the odd few games to end a season'.

 

He worked hard, got in shape, dedicated to his craft, put his head down and did what he was told to get better, appears to have matured and learned to play a puck pursuing, constant attack/pressure game on a checking line for most of the year.

 

I don't particularly care what his stat lines said in any of the games. He needed to get in to shape and learn to play non lazy, non bad junior habits hockey. Now that he has that base, he can build off of it.

This isn't Timbit hockey. Players don't get gold stars and blue ribbons for doing their best and learning the game. It's usually those who get things done who go on and have meaningful careers in the NHL.

 

Which is why it's bewildering to see you oppose the use of stats to gauge his progress. Would you rather we measure him by walks around the sea wall? Foot longs eaten? Push ups at the local gym? Sure, he improved his forechecking and intensity at the end of the season but how is that going to get him with the main team when we can sign another Dorsett who can do all that and put up points as well. 

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, guntrix said:

This isn't Timbit hockey. Players don't get gold stars and blue ribbons for doing their best and learning the game. It's usually those who get things done who go on and have meaningful careers in the NHL.

 

Which is why it's bewildering to see you oppose the use of stats to gauge his progress. Would you rather we measure him by walks around the sea wall? Foot longs eaten? Push ups at the local gym? Sure, he improved his forechecking and intensity at the end of the season but how is that going to get him with the main team when we can sign another Dorsett who can do all that and put up points as well. 

Again, nobody is saying he didn't screw up by not doing those things before. He did. He coasted through junior with his size and speed and needed to learn he won't be able to do that in the NHL. Everyone would have clearly preferred he matured and figured that out sooner. He did not.

 

His last season wasn't about putting up stats (in a checking role on a crappy team no less). It was about unlearning his bad junior habits and becoming a pro. A foundation to build off of.

 

I'd suggest judging him on how he committed to that process and how much better his conditioning, compete etc are. Now he needs to take the next step.

[Dekey Pete]

i don't see why some struggle so hard with the fact that he actually did improve when you compare to how he started last season.  Ideally Jake would have never come to camp overweight and out of shape, but he did.  And he didn't work hard enough early on to keep a spot on the Canucks.  Fast forward to his first 1/2 season in Utica, and he didn't seem to get it.  He was making bad remarks to the press, his attitude didn't seem great, not working hard enough on the ice and it was showing.  But by the second 1/2 things were starting to click for him.  By all accounts he was starting to become his old self again, but at the pro level. (notice the underline).  

 

and let's not forget that he played almost the entire Utica season among essentially 3rd line career AHLers on a crappy Utica team.  I'm not saying he should have been playing on the 1st line with the top scorers, because clearly Jake didn't deserve it for most of the season, but you have to consider this when you look solely at his stats for the year.  Let's also not forget that he had one of the lowest shooting %'s on the team, while still managing a good number of shot attempts.  That just screams a player who is having a little trouble trying to figure out what works and what doesn't at the professional level.  

 

So when these horse beaters post Jake's stats for his 2016/17 Utica season it looks very disappointing, yes.  No one is arguing that.  All people are saying is that he clearly made improvements at some point, late, during that season and we're all hoping he can continue that into training camp and next season.  It's no question Jake regressed last year when you compare to the previous, but that doesn't mean that he can't come back and turn it all around.  

 

ramble over

[dpn1]

More than anyone we should  be listening to what Greener has said about Jake.  Green obviously has had a huge impact on Jake abd he thinks Jake is now in the right head space and has made major strides in understanding what it means to be an NHL player.  If Green says he is on track, then I believe him.  Also, not every prospect is going to develop like Bo.  Some just are not as mature as Bo was.  That is to be expected from 18, 19 and 20 year old kids.

[The Lock]

3 hours ago, guntrix said:

This isn't Timbit hockey. Players don't get gold stars and blue ribbons for doing their best and learning the game. It's usually those who get things done who go on and have meaningful careers in the NHL.

 

Which is why it's bewildering to see you oppose the use of stats to gauge his progress. Would you rather we measure him by walks around the sea wall? Foot longs eaten? Push ups at the local gym? Sure, he improved his forechecking and intensity at the end of the season but how is that going to get him with the main team when we can sign another Dorsett who can do all that and put up points as well. 

People don't get gold stars and blue ribbons for doing their best. Instead, they make a career in the NHL. Doing one's best is HOW people get things done because doing one's best means they are working hard every shift and growing more and more as a player; thus, they have meaningful careers in the NHL.

 

The thing is, let's say Virtanen develops into a grinder for us. We don't have to sign another Dorsett at that point and there's more potential for Virtanen to develop further than an older player like Dorsett who is less likely to be able to develop further. You can keep signing random grinders, but who ends up more valuable for the team in the end: the Dorsetts and Cracknells we recruit or the Hansens and Burrowses that we've developed and end up sticking with the team for a long time as they prove to have just that much more potential?

 

It's really going to be up to Virtanen in the end what path he ends up taking. If you don't think Virtanen will amount to anything, well that's your opinion. I guess I don't really understand why one needs to give up hope and be so pessimistic to the point where they're looking for negativity in stats, but hey, to each their own. In the end, it's a kid's future that we're talking about and nobody has a crystal ball.

Edited June 2, 2017 by The Lock

[Boudrias]

13 hours ago, dpn1 said:

More than anyone we should  be listening to what Greener has said about Jake.  Green obviously has had a huge impact on Jake abd he thinks Jake is now in the right head space and has made major strides in understanding what it means to be an NHL player.  If Green says he is on track, then I believe him.  Also, not every prospect is going to develop like Bo.  Some just are not as mature as Bo was.  That is to be expected from 18, 19 and 20 year old kids.

Very excited that both Green and Virtanen will be bumping into one another this summer in Vancouver. Green can continue his mentoring and keep Jake directed.  

[Alflives]

1 hour ago, Boudrias said:

Very excited that both Green and Virtanen will be bumping into one another this summer in Vancouver. Green can continue his mentoring and keep Jake directed.  

Heard Ray Ferraro say the Green's NHL career included a time when he too, like Jake, wasn't a proper pro - especially his commitment to fitness.  Then he matured and became a very good player, who played a lot of years.  Maybe Green sees some of his younger self in Jake, and that helps with the two connecting?

[ForsbergTheGreat]

15 hours ago, The Sedge said:

i don't see why some struggle so hard with the fact that he actually did improve when you compare to how he started last season.  Ideally Jake would have never come to camp overweight and out of shape, but he did.  And he didn't work hard enough early on to keep a spot on the Canucks.  Fast forward to his first 1/2 season in Utica, and he didn't seem to get it.  He was making bad remarks to the press, his attitude didn't seem great, not working hard enough on the ice and it was showing.  But by the second 1/2 things were starting to click for him.  By all accounts he was starting to become his old self again, but at the pro level. (notice the underline).  

The point is, the state Jake is at now, is where he should have been the day after we drafted him.  It took 3 years in a ultra competitive work place to figure out that he needs to,  that's 3 years of other areas that we've missed out on development.  Where someone else is fine tuning their game to be an impact player in the NHL, he's back to square one, that's not progression. 

 

15 hours ago, The Sedge said:

and let's not forget that he played almost the entire Utica season among essentially 3rd line career AHLers on a crappy Utica team.  I'm not saying he should have been playing on the 1st line with the top scorers, because clearly Jake didn't deserve it for most of the season, but you have to consider this when you look solely at his stats for the year.  Let's also not forget that he had one of the lowest shooting %'s on the team, while still managing a good number of shot attempts.  That just screams a player who is having a little trouble trying to figure out what works and what doesn't at the professional level.  

Yes he struggled but we need to stop with the excuses for him or he will never figure it out. Every player drafted in his first round has the same issues to go through and if they want to make a living, they have to over come it.  They all have at a much quicker rate.  

 

15 hours ago, The Sedge said:

So when these horse beaters post Jake's stats for his 2016/17 Utica season it looks very disappointing, yes.  No one is arguing that.  All people are saying is that he clearly made improvements at some point, late, during that season and we're all hoping he can continue that into training camp and next season.  It's no question Jake regressed last year when you compare to the previous, but that doesn't mean that he can't come back and turn it all around. 

 

After reading your last sentence, I think there is a clear miss communication on your part. Me posting those stats isn't writing off the kid, it's just showing how far the kid has fell.  Why do people have to act like he's exactly where we wanted him to be 3 years post draft.  He's not, he's not even close and it's fair for people to be upset.  Just because he was drafted by the canucks doesn't have to mean he's all the sudden everyone's favorite player.  We are allowed to be critical of a player who is not meeting the 6th overall expectations. 

 

Can he turn it around? sure, but so could Yakupov, the doesn't mean people can't discuss the disappointment he's been, especially when they have enough evidence to justify it. 

 

The problem is, (and it's to be expected on a canucks forum) is that everyone is so defensive of this team.  The coach, the player, the prospects, the GM. For some reason everyone wants to act like everything is roses and every move, decision, player is turning out perfectly.  Then when anyone has a doubt/criticism or an issue with something done. People can't handle it.  They're ok with calling out other teams prospects stalled development with less justification but the moment someone mentions something even remotely negative about this team, fire alarms ring and

 

On draft day if someone told you 3 years post draft that this is where Jake would be, no one here would call that a success, so why are we still trying to sugar coat it?  Jake has been a disappointment so far,  yes he can turn it around and hopefully he does, but so far he's done nothing for us to get excited about.  Not in the NHL, or AHL.