[Trade] Canucks trade Andrey Pedan, 4th-round pick to Penguins for Derrick Pouliot

[IBatch]

On 03/10/2017 at 1:59 PM, Darius71 said:

 

Those penguins have no idea how to assess talent

 

 

They already have enough of what he offers IF he can even do it, where as they got wait they wanted in someone who can ride the press box and play when they want more toughness.  The Eastern Conference should learn something about Pedan before dropping the mits or taking a run at Crosby or Malkin ....

[stawns]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

They already have enough of what he offers IF he can even do it, where as they got wait they wanted in someone who can ride the press box and play when they want more toughness.  The Eastern Conference should learn something about Pedan before dropping the mits or taking a run at Crosby or Malkin ....

What's he going to do from the AHL?

[ForsbergTheGreat]

7 hours ago, oldnews said:

whose 'eye test' are you relying on? 

skeptical about how much you've watched Pouliot the past few years.  where exactly?

sounds more like parroting Rutherford's (or someone else you've read) 'eye test' tbh - or are you saying you've been watching a lot of the Wilkes-Barre/Scranton Pens - or the large sample 11 NHL games he played last year?

btw - the Sbisa story is a time warp from a few years ago as well - these 'big mistakes' you speak of weren't really the case last year (and ironically, the guy was selected in the expansion draft - so apparently either LV wasn't paying attention, or simply don't concur).

I'm curious, are you saying Pouliot hasn't struggled defensively in Pittsburgh or you just pulling straw over the terminology @JamesB used.

[spook007]

5 hours ago, Dazzle said:

We'll never know. But we can safely assume that Pouliot was a defenseman they had been looking at for quite some time. Even though Benning says Green's previous experience with him (Pouliot) wasn't considered during the trade, it makes no sense to trade for a player that you don't have intel on. I'm sure if the Pedan thing didn't work, Benning would've tried to trade another player to take advantage of this window of obtaining Pouliot.

Yeah... we will never know.

Actually it could be that Benning tried to make another trade, but Pens weren't satisfied, and it ended up being Pedan.

Green benched Pedan several times in the AHL, so don't think he was too distraught seeing him traded.

 

Of course Greens previous experience with him has been part of it... If you buy a car, someone you know owned before, of course you'll ask him about the car.

 

[Crabcakes]

8 hours ago, JamesB said:

I am not sure how nervous Pittsburgh fans are. They have just won back-to-back Stanley Cups. That is a problem I would love to have. If the Canucks could just win one Stanely Cup I would not complain if the next year they traded away all their good young players for Jaromir Jagr. (Well, maybe I would, but you get the idea.)

 

If Pittsburgh management has been "messing up", can we please mess up like that too?

 

As for Pouliot, he has really been struggling in Pittsburgh. Not so much in the "analytics" where is not too bad, but on the eye test, where he just seems to make too many big mistakes (kind of like Sbisa). Maybe Pouliot can turn things around. Maybe not. I have no problem taking the gamble, but the odds are against it working out.

 

And, frankly, I think Benning should be trying to accumulate draft picks, not trade them away. Yes a 4th round pick is not a big deal but, with low picks, the key is numbers. They are all lottery tickets and the more you get, the better.

 

 

 

 

The original trade to obtain the draft pick that Pittsburgh selected Pouliot with in 2012 was:

 

to:  Carolina, Jordan Staal

 

to: Pitt, Brandon Sutter, Brian Dumoulin, 2012 1st

 

I think we are seeing a team at the very top who is having to make some hard decisions to preserve their team.  I can't say how well they have been developing their players but I do recall some nice assets slipping through Gillis' fingers when the Canucks were at the top.  Hopefully the Canucks can reverse the development of this player who was showed tones of skill and was dominant in junior only 3 years ago when he put up 70 points in 58 games.  His AHL numbers have been good too. 

 

I can't see why Joe Sakic wasn't on the ball with this one.  Damn shame.

[Phat Fingers]

16 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

The original trade to obtain the draft pick that Pittsburgh selected Pouliot with in 2012 was:

 

to:  Carolina, Jordan Staal

 

to: Pitt, Brandon Sutter, Brian Dumoulin, 2012 1st

 

I think we are seeing a team at the very top who is having to make some hard decisions to preserve their team.  I can't say how well they have been developing their players but I do recall some nice assets slipping through Gillis' fingers when the Canucks were at the top.  Hopefully the Canucks can reverse the development of this player who was showed tones of skill and was dominant in junior only 3 years ago when he put up 70 points in 58 games.  His AHL numbers have been good too. 

 

I can't see why Joe Sakic wasn't on the ball with this one.  Damn shame.

DP is the defence man we have been looking for, between him and OJ we have talent that this club has lacked on the blue line in its entire history.  

 

Pits was over a barrel and GMJB pounced. Had Shultz not signed a sweetheart one year deal, DP would be on Pits roster this year. 

 

This move over will pay major dividends over the coming years. 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

32 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

The original trade to obtain the draft pick that Pittsburgh selected Pouliot with in 2012 was:

 

to:  Carolina, Jordan Staal

 

to: Pitt, Brandon Sutter, Brian Dumoulin, 2012 1st

 

I think we are seeing a team at the very top who is having to make some hard decisions to preserve their team.  I can't say how well they have been developing their players but I do recall some nice assets slipping through Gillis' fingers when the Canucks were at the top.  Hopefully the Canucks can reverse the development of this player who was showed tones of skill and was dominant in junior only 3 years ago when he put up 70 points in 58 games.  His AHL numbers have been good too. 

 

I can't see why Joe Sakic wasn't on the ball with this one.  Damn shame.

Sakic doesn't really need another pure offensive D.  They already have Barrie in the line up, The have Makar in the wings, and they also have Bigras who put up 71 points in 62 games in junior only 2 seasons ago. 

 

I think if they could have got him for free they might have taken a gamble on him, but it wouldn't make sense to pay anything for that risk, they have a bunch of their own high risk players to already worry about

[Warhippy]

8 hours ago, JamesB said:

I am not sure how nervous Pittsburgh fans are. They have just won back-to-back Stanley Cups. That is a problem I would love to have. If the Canucks could just win one Stanely Cup I would not complain if the next year they traded away all their good young players for Jaromir Jagr. (Well, maybe I would, but you get the idea.)

 

If Pittsburgh management has been "messing up", can we please mess up like that too?

 

As for Pouliot, he has really been struggling in Pittsburgh. Not so much in the "analytics" where is not too bad, but on the eye test, where he just seems to make too many big mistakes (kind of like Sbisa). Maybe Pouliot can turn things around. Maybe not. I have no problem taking the gamble, but the odds are against it working out.

 

And, frankly, I think Benning should be trying to accumulate draft picks, not trade them away. Yes a 4th round pick is not a big deal but, with low picks, the key is numbers. They are all lottery tickets and the more you get, the better.

 

 

 

 

I completely agree in that we should be trying to garner more picks, frequently.

 

But I think this is the kind of deal or risk that almost every GM makes 10 times out of 10.

 

Puliot had no room or place on a championship Pens squad.  Their fans aren't looking much further than the next game or this season.  Crosby and Malkin are starting to move on to the wrong ends of 30.  Letang 30 now with some injury questions.  Kessel 30.  We saw just this scenario unfolding after 2012.  They're still going to be studs in 4-6 years from now without question.  But if Pens fans aren't seriously starting to think of succession plans they're going to possibly find themselves in the same situation as 2002-2004 the darkest years post Mario

 

At no point did I or anyone say Pitts brass has been messing up.  But fans would be crazy to not look at this trade and be nervous.  Why didn't he work out?  What did they do to help him succeed?  How and why does all that talent and skill just end up so muted, not gone but muted.

 

This is the picture perfect trade in which you see that proverbial change of scenery help a player reach their potential.  If I was a Pittsburgh fan I'd be looking at this with some amount of nervousness

[ice orca]

2 hours ago, Eastcoast meets Westcoast said:

DP is the defence man we have been looking for, between him and OJ we have talent that this club has lacked on the blue line in its entire history.  

 

Pits was over a barrel and GMJB pounced. Had Shultz not signed a sweetheart one year deal, DP would be on Pits roster this year. 

 

This move over will pay major dividends over the coming years. 

Really? better than Ohlund or Salo.

[Neko]

Not a bad trade at all.  This has been a good news week including Megna being sent to Utica.

[Phat Fingers]

21 minutes ago, ice orca said:

Really? better than Ohlund or Salo.

We will see. 

[oldnews]

3 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

or you just pulling straw

Derp.  Straw is when you put words in someone else's mouth.

This is a fair question - referring precisely to what JamesB said.

Carry on FTG - probably best for you to go your own way.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

2 hours ago, Eastcoast meets Westcoast said:

DP is the defence man we have been looking for, between him and OJ we have talent that this club has lacked on the blue line in its entire history.  

 

Pits was over a barrel and GMJB pounced. Had Shultz not signed a sweetheart one year deal, DP would be on Pits roster this year. 

 

This move over will pay major dividends over the coming years. 

This move wasn't made because of pits overflowing D depth,

 

If pits was as high on this kid as the most canucks fans seem to be, they wouldn't have gave up on him.  It wasn't like they were forced to waive him, they could have easily kept him as the extra D and waived Ruhwedel or even Rowney.  And it wasn't like they were desperate for Pedan and 4th round pick that Pouliot was the price they had to pay to get.

 

Really it comes down to a team tried over and over to give him the opportunity to succeed and break out, he just wasn't there, this training camp was his last chance and he didn't bring it.  He wasn't progressing at the NHL so they cashed in what they could for him.

 

A fresh environment could be exactly what he needs, lots of players get stuck in rut and need a second chance.  That's exactly what he's going to get this year.  He could seize this opportunity or he could falter.  For canucks sake lets hope he puts it together and we can cash in on that gained value. 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

6 minutes ago, oldnews said:

Derp.  Straw is when you put words in someone else's mouth.

This is a fair question - referring precisely to what JamesB said.

Carry on FTG - probably best for you to go your own way.

 

straw man

ˌstrô ˈman/

noun

 

1. 1.

   an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

   "her familiar procedure of creating a straw man by exaggerating their approach"

 

 

Hmm sounds exactly like what you did regarding his use of the term "eye test". I'm starting to understand why derp so much. 

 

Yes carrying on king of straw..

 

[oldnews]

16 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

The ironing - that you're grasping at straw.

 

Anyhow, as always, it's been fun, but have very little time for a prolific time vampire like yourself.

 

[JM_]

12 hours ago, JamesB said:

As for Pouliot, he has really been struggling in Pittsburgh. Not so much in the "analytics" where is not too bad, but on the eye test, where he just seems to make too many big mistakes (kind of like Sbisa).

that's an interesting comparison. The "eye test" on Sbisa over the last 2 seasons in particular was wrong and didn't match up with the actual data. He was a solid #5 in terms of metrics like giveaways. Last year he had 50 giveaways (112th overall on total giveaways). Same as Orlov. (https://www.sportingcharts.com/nhl/stats/player-giveaways-statistic/2016/)

 

So maybe like Sbisa, Pouliot is also a victim of confirmation bias and people freak out every time he makes a mistake and think it happens more that it really did.

 

 

 

 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

On 10/3/2017 at 11:18 AM, Fantomex said:

If I'm Jim Benning, I trust Travis' opinion on the two players involved. He has coached both players and would know better than anyone what they bring to the table. If Travis says "I think Pouliot has a better chance to succeed at the NHL level than Pedan" I'd listen. I think Travis has more say in personnel decisions than we're led to believe.

I think Gillis made that mistake with Keith Ballard  (re: Rick Bowness).

 

But seriously, while I'm sure he asked Travis for his opinions on the player; Pouliot was probably on Benning's radar for a while.  That is what Benning does (scout, scout and scout).

[Dazzle]

26 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

I think Gillis made that mistake with Keith Ballard  (re: Rick Bowness).

 

But seriously, while I'm sure he asked Travis for his opinions on the player; Pouliot was probably on Benning's radar for a while.  That is what Benning does (scout, scout and scout).

Ballard was never really given a chance to succeed. It's funny because his career died after Vancouver. There were a lot of mistakes in handling a player like him. Canucks were lucky with Grabner, but they squandered that hard. Same with Florida.

[Dazzle]

32 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

that's an interesting comparison. The "eye test" on Sbisa over the last 2 seasons in particular was wrong and didn't match up with the actual data. He was a solid #5 in terms of metrics like giveaways. Last year he had 50 giveaways (112th overall on total giveaways). Same as Orlov. (https://www.sportingcharts.com/nhl/stats/player-giveaways-statistic/2016/)

 

So maybe like Sbisa, Pouliot is also a victim of confirmation bias and people freak out every time he makes a mistake and think it happens more that it really did.

 

 

 

 

It could also be, and I'm completely speculating here, that it's gotten into Pouliot's head too. He maybe second guesses himself and that ends up screwing himself over. Maybe it's all mental.

[Gollumpus]

3 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

It could also be, and I'm completely speculating here, that it's gotten into Pouliot's head too. He maybe second guesses himself and that ends up screwing himself over. Maybe it's all mental.

Can't be all mental. As Yogi said, "90% of the game is mental, and the other half is physical".

 

                                                       regards,  G.