Drafts, trades, signings... Should be all about Defense

[NewbieCanuckFan]

34 minutes ago, N7Nucks said:

It’s honestly pretty amazing how people consider Tryamkin a potential number 1/2 d-man but Juolevi isn’t. Lol. He really wasn’t as good as you all think he was. 

If Juolevi can turn out to be someone like Hamhuis - that is a pretty good pick.  A VERY solid #2 in his prime (Hamhuis).  Even an over the hill Hamhuis is a #4 on a playoff team right now.

 

 

[Alflives]

7 minutes ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

Indeed. If it's not obvious to people by now, with what the team has gone through this season, I just....I dunno. The phrase "lost cause" comes to mind when thinking of those people who choose to try and undermine his significance.

 

Might be a simplistic way of looking at it, but again, just look at our record with Horvat as opposed to without him. This ragtag group of vets/young guns/journeymen is a bubble team with him in the lineup. Without him, we're literally the worst team in the league. He improves this team in almost every categorical way. Offense. Defence. FO percentage. PP. PK. Team speed. Leadership.

 

His significance cannot be overstated, and any thoughts of trading him should be met with universal disapproval and banishment from the fandom.

 

edit: I do agree with the OP though. Our most significant need right now is D, and outside of Horvat, Boeser, Pettersson and Demko (and maybe Gaudette if we're not talking about someone super high end), everything should be on the table for young, high end D.

You’re 100% correct.  To get that significant dman I see us trading Tanev plus, or getting lucky at the draft.  We do have a very young guy who might develop into a special D - Jack Rathbone.  

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, *Buzzsaw* said:

I don't agree with the idea of sacrificing any of our blue chip offensive talent for D...  Horvat, Boeser and Pettersson should be untouchable.

 

Horvat is the engine which drives this team... he give the kind of leadership which can't be overestimated.

 

But any of the others should be potential trade bait for a chance to sign/draft a legitimate #1 or #2 D.

Those guys you listed ARE the bait to snag a number one defenseman.

Edit: name the guys that fit that bill that have been traded over the last five years and who they were traded for. ...it's a very short list, two Norris caliber guys switching teams, and one average top c ( so around 15 the overall ) for a future 20 year man and possible all-star in Jones.

 

These guys just aren't available outside free agency or the draft very often.  And if they are they don't come cheap.

[Toyotasfan]

A centre to replace Henrick and give the team a bonefied 1-2 punch on offence would be nice.

[JeremyCuddles]

1 hour ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

No, he was better. Great potential, & I bet he'll be back.

He’s overrated. I liked him, but he was very overrated. 

[Pickly]

If the Canucks are gonna continue to draft in the top 5 which is likely for at least the next couple seasons than continue to draft the BPA and then once you are in a position where you need that piece to boost your team you trade a blue chipper like Nashville did with Seth Jones. Obviously the Canucks are in an opposite situation than Nashville who have had riches of defenceman for what seems like an eternity and the Canucks have none but I think they learned when they picked Juolevi out of organizational need vs BPA in Tkachuk and I bet they are regretting it to this day cause he is exactly what this team lacks. 

[Where's Wellwood]

I'd only trade Horvat in a Seth Jones-Ryan Johansen type trade where we know what we're getting back. Contract status also matters. I'd want that D locked up for a good price for at least as long as how ever many years Horvat has left at the time of that trade.

[ItsMillerTime]

2 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Horvat is not untouchable. 

 

This sentiment is a testament to the worship of false idols in Vancouver.

I like the guy, he’s a super second line center, cut from the same cloth as a Rod Brind’Amour, but he’s not untouchable, especially to a roster like this one.

 

I’m not saying give him up, I’m saying he has a price and it might be worth looking at. 

 

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Horvat isn't untouchable, nobody is after Gretzky.  Would you trade him for Ghost in Philly?  Hmmm.. wouldnt want to ( and Philly probably wouldn't either, Boeser maybe), but working from the goalie out is generally the way to do it and Demko should be here as soon as next year.  If Pettersson works out and is a Calder candidate as THN is predicting and we draft the BPA top ranked C this draft a deal like that has some validity next season.    

Would much rather win the lottery and draft Dahlin, if Juolevi works out we've got enough to get out soon.  If not we draft a defenseman that could be draft plus three, or get something like Pouliot was for PIT, underwhelming but maybe a player.  

Its not the only way to do it, but it does work just ask Nashville and their embarrassment of riches, Weber, Josi, Ekblom, Ellis, Seth Jones etc...Solid top pairings get primo market return which helps later when trying to plug holes like a first line center.

 

The OP is correct in the fact our D is not very good, well below average, and aside from Juolevi and maybe Brisbois the system is barren.  We will have to concentrate on D, and draft plus three to get to the show plus three years to become impact puts this year's pick ready for prime time after Horvats contract is up.  

 

On the bright side PIT won a cup with a very average defense last year...so maybe things aren't so bad either and we should just stay the course, draft the BPA and trade when we get too deep in a certain area.

Gretzky was in his prime all teams knew what he was all about. Horvat is still developing and getting better every year. You're crazy to say he isn't untouchable this year. Maybe when he stopped developing. Also why does Philadelphia want to give ghost up for another center. Thank god you guys aren't the Canucks gm in my eyes Horvat is a future Selke winner and can be a 1st liner. Instead of giving up a proven center give up a 1st round pick instead. I love Boeser and all but looks like you are forgetting on how good Horvat is. 

[189lb enforcers?]

7 minutes ago, ItsMillerTime said:

 

Gretzky was in his prime all teams knew what he was all about. Horvat is still developing and getting better every year. You're crazy to say he isn't untouchable this year. Maybe when he stopped developing. Also why does Philadelphia want to give ghost up for another center. Thank god you guys aren't the Canucks gm in my eyes Horvat is a future Selke winner and can be a 1st liner. Instead of giving up a proven center give up a 1st round pick instead. I love Boeser and all but looks like you are forgetting on how good Horvat is. 

It’s not about giving up on Horvat as much as it is of finding a way to land a premier Dman to add to an emerging core, which would surely cost a Horvat. You dont need to convince anyone how valuable Horvat is to the Canucks. 

 

Since the team is only in the very beginnings of a rebuild, I’ve suggested that no player is untouchable, especially if a #1 D was potentially in play, prospect or not. 

 

There are no Crosbys or McDavids on the Canucks. More on point, there are no Hedmans either. 

 

 

 

 

 

[hammertime]

2 hours ago, *Buzzsaw* said:

Its 90% this team will not make the playoffs... probably 99%.

 

While the year and the team's likely final position in the standings are a disappointment considering the talent which was available, it has been a really good year for evaluating the overall strengths and weaknesses of the team, especially its depth.  A lot of the reason for the poor performance has been due to injuries to its core forwards... Horvat, Sutter and Baertschi, as well as the season ending injury to Derek Dorsett.  The team has also suffered injuries to its defense, but not as severe.

 

The team has shown weakness in the number of goals allowed, and especially with its penalty killing.  It is also in the lower end of the standings in goals for, but quite as bad.

 

In examining the young forwards pool there is a lot of room for optimism... Boeser, Horvat and Baertschi should be able to improve their offensive output for next year.  Even Gaunce is trending up.  And the offensive prospects are also looking good, with Elias Pettersson, Kole Lind, Adam Gaudette and even Jonah Gadjovitch will add a lot.

 

Where my concerns are is in the area of defense.  Edler is getting old, Tanev is too injury prone, and the rest of the younger crop are realistically at best 3/4 D. 

 

And Olli Juolevi might also be a decent 3/4, but is he a potential #1 or #2...?    I don't think so.

 

We had one potential #1 or #2 D, and that was Tryamkin... and his status with the Canucks is one big question mark.  Maybe he will change his mind and consider returning, maybe the Canucks can buy out his KHL contract, but those are two big maybe's.

 

Canucks need to look around the league and see who is available to be signed, and need to start looking at the 2018 Draft for Defensemen.  Rasmus Dahlin, Noah Dobson, Jared McIsaac and Evan Bouchard should be on the Canuck's radar as picks.

 

Even signing Erik Karlsson has to be looked at... if the Sedins do not return, or if they return at a low salary cap, there could be room for Karlsson.  At 27, he is still young enough to be around for a Cup run with Bo, Boes, Demko and Pettersson.

 

Comments?

 

 

Boqvist??

 

My hope with pick 5-6 is to have one of Boqvist, Zadina, Tkachuck, Svechnikov drop to the Canucks. In that order. 

 

I also want JB to do his best to acquire an additional 1st even if it costs to go after one of Veleno, Bouchard, Woo. I believe these 3 will be among the top 10 from this draft though may drop outside the top 10. 

[J.I.A.H.N]

Bouchard and Dobson are now moving up the rankings.......keep in mind this is just Feb. and rankings will change.............but I think they are both around 6 or 7 OA

Both Offensive Dmen, with sound defensive play. Both high IQ, and above average skaters, above average first pass players. 

 

 

[kloubek]

5 hours ago, Toyotasfan said:

A centre to replace Henrick and give the team a bonefied 1-2 punch on offence would be nice.

We have this guy in our system named Pettersson.  Many think he'll be pretty good.

 

And it's Henrik.

Anyway, of course we need to focus on our D. Most of the trade proposals on here are forwards, but before we do too much more tinkering on the forward lines (unless we trade someone to get d) he really needs to do something on the blueline.  A few things, really. We still don't have a pmd, when by all rights we probably *should* have one true star and one secondary guy. If we're lucky, Juolevi can be that second guy. We could use another player who is truly defensive, as Tanev can't do it all and Guddy tries but let's face it - he's really just a hitter and might be gone anyway. We also have very little prospects - though that could be solved via drafting.

 

I like Benning and feel he has done a good job, but I just don't get how our forward prospect pool can look so good while the d was largely ignored.

[Gollumpus]

8 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

I’m a D-first type, wannabe builder. 

 

I'd even go as far as to sell a off Horvat to get both Swedish Dmen at the top of this year’s draft, if the Canucks were to win the lottery, which they will. 

 

Yup, the Canucks are going to win the lottery, folks. You read it here first. 

Just to make things clear here:

 

Assuming the Canucks lucked out and got the 1st OA, you would look to trade Horvat (and assumed ++) to Arizona, or Buffalo, or Ottawa, or Montreal (all currently below the Canucks in the standings) in exchange for their 1st round pick, and this assumes that Boqvist was available for that selection. Right?

 

Now, let's reverse this. If Arizona, or Buffalo, or some other team wound up with the 1st OA pick (which they intended to use), and they offered a similar deal, for Vancouver's 1st (the 2nd OA?), would you do it? Arizona could offer Domi (++). Do you take that deal? Buffalo could offer Girgensons (++). Do you pull the trigger on that deal? 

 

I don't believe there's a lot of folks here who would do that deal. So if the Canucks wouldn't, or shouldn't make such a deal to move such a pick, why would the other team do it?

 

                                                  regards,  G.

[IBatch]

9 hours ago, ItsMillerTime said:

 

Gretzky was in his prime all teams knew what he was all about. Horvat is still developing and getting better every year. You're crazy to say he isn't untouchable this year. Maybe when he stopped developing. Also why does Philadelphia want to give ghost up for another center. Thank god you guys aren't the Canucks gm in my eyes Horvat is a future Selke winner and can be a 1st liner. Instead of giving up a proven center give up a 1st round pick instead. I love Boeser and all but looks like you are forgetting on how good Horvat is. 

Just examples, even said I wouldn't want to do it, to say Horvat is 

untouchable is naive, and I used Gretzky to prime readers who were around that long ago given no trade was even close to as emotionally distraught.  When Senators try to legally bad a trade you know it's serious right?

 

Courterier hasn't been replaced and Horvat fills that role while they wait on Patrick, plus Giroux before he got on that line looked like he was about done ....and Philly has loads of defense.  

 

To be clear you wouldnt take that deal if it was available?  Id be a bad GM for trading a excellent 2nd line center  for a future Norris caliber d- man?

 

Except Ghost could be a norris candidate this year, and Jones hasn't done as much yet..and bad example. 

 

 A more realistic one would be Jones for Horvat, now that they have Werenski they might want to trade that chip for someone else.  Heck who am I kidding we aren't getting a #1 d man anywhere but the draft and by the time he's making an impact Horvat will be either signing with us again or moving on.   

 

 

[IBatch]

9 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

It’s not about giving up on Horvat as much as it is of finding a way to land a premier Dman to add to an emerging core, which would surely cost a Horvat. You dont need to convince anyone how valuable Horvat is to the Canucks. 

 

Since the team is only in the very beginnings of a rebuild, I’ve suggested that no player is untouchable, especially if a #1 D was potentially in play, prospect or not. 

 

There are no Crosbys or McDavids on the Canucks. More on point, there are no Hedmans either. 

 

 

 

 

 

I understand.  And look how long it took Hedman (2 overall) to rise to his powers, a lot of years.  Patience isn't a virtue on this site, offer a solution that doesn't include fan faves and it will debated endlessly no matter how impossible (Edler and Tanev are not getting a young number one no matter what NHL16-18 might allow), even Horvat is a stretch.   Sergechev, McAvoy, Werenski types are this teams best chance at this point, draft plus two types and those are pretty rare.  That means for the next few years Benning should be doing what he did in 2016 and hoping this time he picks the right one ( as another thread so eloquently shows that happens about 33% of the time, a first pairing D from all the d drafted in upper half of the first round).  Odds are it could take two consecutive years for it to bite, maybe even three.  And the bite won't have much affect until Horvat is in his last year.

 

Another way is to buy one entering UFA status.  Which could help too. OEL maybe next year?  Karlsson?  We'd be so lucky.

[spook007]

31 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I understand.  And look how long it took Hedman (2 overall) to rise to his powers, a lot of years.  Patience isn't a virtue on this site, offer a solution that doesn't include fan faves and it will debated endlessly no matter how impossible (Edler and Tanev are not getting a young number one no matter what NHL16-18 might allow), even Horvat is a stretch.   Sergechev, McAvoy, Werenski types are this teams best chance at this point, draft plus two types and those are pretty rare.  That means for the next few years Benning should be doing what he did in 2016 and hoping this time he picks the right one ( as another thread so eloquently shows that happens about 33% of the time, a first pairing D from all the d drafted in upper half of the first round).  Odds are it could take two consecutive years for it to bite, maybe even three.  And the bite won't have much affect until Horvat is in his last year.

 

Another way is to buy one entering UFA status.  Which could help too. OEL maybe next year?  Karlsson?  We'd be so lucky.

+1...

Its one thing to draft a D man, but it mostly takes a fair few years for him to turn into a stud.

I fear, that if we have to wait for drafted D-men to lead from the back end, Horvat will be over the hill... I hope not, cause he really does deserve better. 

I can't think of anyone, I'd rather have lead us to the promised land.

[TheGuardian_]

12 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I understand.  And look how long it took Hedman (2 overall) to rise to his powers, a lot of years.  Patience isn't a virtue on this site, offer a solution that doesn't include fan faves and it will debated endlessly no matter how impossible (Edler and Tanev are not getting a young number one no matter what NHL16-18 might allow), even Horvat is a stretch.   Sergechev, McAvoy, Werenski types are this teams best chance at this point, draft plus two types and those are pretty rare.  That means for the next few years Benning should be doing what he did in 2016 and hoping this time he picks the right one ( as another thread so eloquently shows that happens about 33% of the time, a first pairing D from all the d drafted in upper half of the first round).  Odds are it could take two consecutive years for it to bite, maybe even three.  And the bite won't have much affect until Horvat is in his last year.

 

Another way is to buy one entering UFA status.  Which could help too. OEL maybe next year?  Karlsson?  We'd be so lucky.

Believe me some complaining isn't because of wanting instant gratification, for me it is because I know it will be years before some players make it, especially on defence. Good forwards, the really high skilled scoring type, can usually step right into the meat grinder.

 

Again with the Benning drafting, Winnipeg had 2 - 2015 picks playing and 2 staring in the AHL, Tampa had another 2016 dman skate through the team. Yes the Nucks have Boeser and this team was talking about how him in the minors for awhile wouldn't be bad for him.

 

I post constantly that the Nucks will have to over pay to get young elite talent combined with taking on bad contracts. OEL might be available for many picks/prospects.

 

Enter fantasy land;

 

The Yotes may even trade the #1 overall if money can be included some how, maybe like trading a player like Horvat and retaining half his salary, a 13.75 mil cash deal over the term of his contract and taking back Dave Bolland' 5.5 mil. for a  Baertschi and Granlund and couple of 2nd round picks. Even with paying both Granlund and Sven it is a 15+ mil deal. This would be a wildly over pay but the question come in how much does the future of the team look with the player being traded for? How valuable if the kid is another Karlsson or Doughty.

[IBatch]

2 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Believe me some complaining isn't because of wanting instant gratification, for me it is because I know it will be years before some players make it, especially on defence. Good forwards, the really high skilled scoring type, can usually step right into the meat grinder.

 

Again with the Benning drafting, Winnipeg had 2 - 2015 picks playing and 2 staring in the AHL, Tampa had another 2016 dman skate through the team. Yes the Nucks have Boeser and this team was talking about how him in the minors for awhile wouldn't be bad for him.

 

I post constantly that the Nucks will have to over pay to get young elite talent combined with taking on bad contracts. OEL might be available for many picks/prospects.

 

Enter fantasy land;

 

The Yotes may even trade the #1 overall if money can be included some how, maybe like trading a player like Horvat and retaining half his salary, a 13.75 mil cash deal over the term of his contract and taking back Dave Bolland' 5.5 mil. for a  Baertschi and Granlund and couple of 2nd round picks. Even with paying both Granlund and Sven it is a 15+ mil deal. This would be a wildly over pay but the question come in how much does the future of the team look with the player being traded for? How valuable if the kid is another Karlsson or Doughty.

Is the fantasy portion about OEL?  I would think Horvat straight up would suffice,plus maybe one small piece.   Horvat is the logical asset to try and use in acquiring a #1 d,  and PHI or maybe CAR are deeper in young D.  Also the team could try and sell high on Gaudette, for maybe Slavin,  Hanifin, Sanheim, Theodore, or Kilngbergs eventual replacement (ok maybe not the first two).  

 

I suggested Ghost for Horvat but maybe Provorov is more realistic.  Werenski is having a down year so maybe target him too, but PLD seems to be taking over their first spot and making them forget about Johansen.  

 

The point is you have to offer " untouchable" value to get these guys, aside from the Hall trade which is just ridiculous.  Maybe we could offer Tanev straight up for Reilly ha ha.  Lopsided trades do happen (Henrique for Vatanen looks like one too) both ways, but they are exceptions, usually it takes talent to get talent, and Vancouver at some point may have to pull the trigger to get a real quality top defenseman or the next core is facing the real likelihood of plodding along and losing games as a result.

 

If Demko is top shelf it won't matter as much.   If Horvat turns into Kesler 2.0 or Bergeron same thing.  If Pettersson and Boeser do their best Hull and Oats impression same thing.  

[ice orca]

13 hours ago, N7Nucks said:

It’s honestly pretty amazing how people consider Tryamkin a potential number 1/2 d-man but Juolevi isn’t. Lol. He really wasn’t as good as you all think he was. 

I would take Tryamkin over Juolevi any day..lol back at ya.

[TheGuardian_]

1 minute ago, ice orca said:

I would take Tryamkin over Juolevi any day..lol back at ya.

No kidding, Tryamkin stepped right into the NHL without benefit of even skating on that size of rink. Sometimes "poise" screams that this guy already finds the game "slowed down"

His limited PP time was a real disservice, he has a wicked wrist shot and we hardly even saw a slap shot. Funny, good enough for PK work but not PP.

If the team was rolling the dice between Groot and Guddy at 4 mil a season, I would offer Big T more.