[Trade] Lightning trade J.T. Miller to Canucks for Marek Mazanec, 2019 3rd-round pick, 2020 conditional 1st-round pick

[theo5789]

4 minutes ago, Googlie said:

The only gripe I have with the (conditional) 1st round pick being lost is that it takes the offer sheet (for $4,228 million or more) out of our arsenal.  The first round pick must be 2020 and has to be indigenous, can't be one that we acquire, and can't be encumbered (can't be used twice)

 

The only saving grace is that if it is indeed a 2020 pick that TBL gets, it will be a 17th or later.

I doubt we see any offer sheets. It's quite uncommon and these deals hardly ever get past the match phase when they do happen. There really isn't anyone worth matching that isn't going to cost a bunch of picks and considering the crowd here getting all in a huff over a conditional 1st, it won't go over well anyway.

 

For example, I assume Kapanen is a guy some may think of offer sheeting, but I'm not offering more than 4 million for him anyway.

[Maketherightmove]

1 minute ago, oldnews said:

cool one-liners

'not an improvement' on what?  LOL

 I can't take them/your post seriously wadr. 

Thank you

On the Canucks' previous D corp. 

That's your isseu

 

[oldnews]

6 minutes ago, appleboy said:

The only leverage required is $$$$$$$$$.   Mind you they will need to pry some of that free from LE's clutches.  We don't have much to trade.

I think they need to look for a shut down guy. One who can eat up a ton of minutes.      (TRYAMKIN like) 

Hughes was drafted and signed to push the play. Lets se what he can do.

The 'money' is both leverage in the free agent market relative to teams that can' t realistically offer much - that flexibility is in fact leverage.

And 'money' is also leverage in the trade market, where a lot of teams need to move some (ie San Jose signing Karlsson has put Braun and Dillon on the market). 

That money is also the possibility of taking a draft pick - ie to eat a (shorter term) cap dump - a pick that could then be flipped as 'leverage' in any effort to add a D via the trade market - take a significant enough cap dump and you may have gained your principal in a Ristolained type deal.

That's enough leverage that I'm comfortable and confident they can get what they need to done = whether it's a mid to high end  trade, high to mid range UFA.

They also have the potential of retaining on Tanev and dangling him as a cap steal to a contender market that lacks 'leverage' in the current climate.

I like their 'leverage' far more than I see it as a  limiting factor - people are outsmarting themselves witht that stuff imo.

[oldnews]

2 minutes ago, Maketherightmove said:

 

On the Canucks' previous D corp. 

That's your isseu

 

then I laugh at all those 'not an uprgrade' comments.

Really?

The right side was Tanev, Stecher, Biega, Schenn to end the season, with Tanev on the limp.

If you believe none of those names are upgrades on Biega/Schenn, then you really like Biega and/or I can't take a word of your one-liners seriously wadr.

 

You clearly undervalue/underestimate - and are trying way too hard - to dismiss a lot of names on that list.

 

[theo5789]

13 minutes ago, Maketherightmove said:

 

I get a feeling you have no idea who Cernak is. Mayfield and Dillon would absolutely help us. Guys like Chiarot, Hainsey, Kronwall (still playing top 4 minutes with Detroit last season, finished?), and Benn would help out the bottom pairing considering we had guys like Pouliot, and AHL call-ups filling out there for long stretches of the year.

 

So no these guys aren't top pairing dmen, but to suggest they aren't improvements is misinformation. We can sign the lower end guys to be placeholders for if/when Tryamkin returns possibly at the end of next season and we could even see guys like Woo make a push next year. Even Rathbone may get signed by the end of this coming season should he want to make the jump.

[Maketherightmove]

1 minute ago, oldnews said:

then I laugh at all those 'not an uprgrade' comments.

Really?

The right side was Tanev, Stecher, Biega, Schenn to end the season, with Tanev on the limp.

If you believe none of those names are upgrades on Biega/Schenn, then you really like Biega and/or I can't take a word of your one-liners seriously wadr.

 

You clearly undervalue/underestimate - and are trying way too hard - to dismiss a lot of names on that list.

 

That list was full of putrid names, guys that the Nucks don't have the assets to acquire, or guys that are in the range of Biega & Schenn. As I said, Stralman or Benn would be alright as they probably are going to be reasonable $ and term, or bringing back Schenn would be great. But the majority of your suggestions were vomit-inducing. We want the team to get better, friend. 

[Maketherightmove]

2 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

I get a feeling you have no idea who Cernak is. Mayfield and Dillon would absolutely help us. Guys like Chiarot, Hainsey, Kronwall (still playing top 4 minutes with Detroit last season, finished?), and Benn would help out the bottom pairing considering we had guys like Pouliot, and AHL call-ups filling out there for long stretches of the year.

 

So no these guys aren't top pairing dmen, but to suggest they aren't improvements is misinformation. We can sign the lower end guys to be placeholders for if/when Tryamkin returns possibly at the end of next season and we could even see guys like Woo make a push next year. Even Rathbone may get signed by the end of this coming season should he want to make the jump.

I think the hope is we improve the top 4 which drops a D man down and relegates Biega back to where he should be (7th or 8th option) and hope Juolevi can step up shortly into the season and improve the depth further, so that we don't have to be subjected to watching a dinosaur like Kronwall or Hainsey. Pretty simple. 

[captainhorvat]

2 hours ago, Losing With Pride said:

People get it.

 

It's not a guaranteed mid to late 1st rounder.  That is the issue.  If the pick was lottery protected both years, I would completely understand.  The issue is that it leaves us exposed.

It takes ball and some risk to make a trade like this. I rather take this risk and go for the playoffs. We were only 5 wins away from getting into the playoffs. Were alot closer to playoffs thn most people think in this market. If this ends up being a lottery pick in 2021 thn we have alot bigger problems. But that wont be the case.

[Gaudette Celly]

56 minutes ago, Provost said:

Read slower and maybe move your lips and it will help you with your comprehension.

 

... you are welcome for the free tip.  Hope it helps you going forward.

JT Miller being "a slight upgrade in Sutter"?  It's one thing to not know who he is, but another to not even look at something as basic as scoring stats when comparing players.

[Maketherightmove]

4 minutes ago, captainhorvat said:

It takes ball and some risk to make a trade like this. I rather take this risk and go for the playoffs. We were only 5 wins away from getting into the playoffs. Were alot closer to playoffs thn most people think in this market. If this ends up being a lottery pick in 2021 thn we have alot bigger problems. But that wont be the case.

And 5 losses from finishing last in the West.

[RRypien37]

1 hour ago, Hutton Wink said:

 

His assessment is correct so not sure what you are confused about? He said WORST case scenario. 

[theo5789]

3 minutes ago, Maketherightmove said:

I think the hope is we improve the top 4 which drops a D man down and relegates Biega back to where he should be (7th or 8th option) and hope Juolevi can step up shortly into the season and improve the depth further, so that we don't have to be subjected to watching a dinosaur like Kronwall or Hainsey. Pretty simple. 

Only reason we would really entertain Hainsey or Kronwall anyway is if we move Hutton to hopefully be part of a deal to improve us elsewhere as those guys are LD. They would be one year deal type players that hold the fort until Juolevi is ready and/or as mentioned earlier if Rathbone gets a look at the end of the season. I much rather have them than see Pouliot again. There's a reason why they were still getting top 4 minutes on their respective teams, but would get less here to mitigate any decline in their game and a 1 year deal poses no risk to the team.

 

 

Biega is certainly a 7 or 8 dman regardless if we make any improvements or not. He knows this and has accepted his role.

[Dixon Ward]

All the talk about building through the draft, dumping older players for draft picks, etc.. for the past few years has, imho, lead many on cdc to overvalue draft picks.  I have heard many on hear talk about offer sheeting high end guys.  This would require a ridiculous cap hit, term and giving up a number of top draft picks.  I have also heard many people talk about signing "top" Free Agents like Lee, Ferland, Dzingel, etc... which we all know would cost big $$ and at least 7 years.  I would much prefer Miller at his cap hit and term, to any of these free agents at their cap hits and terms.  He is a proven top 6 player who is still young enough to play a big role in our next step.  Gives Petey and Bo a great winger to play with, kills penalties, etc...

 

I am very happy with this trade.  At some point the picks need to translate into real players who can win a hockey game.  We only have 6 spots in the top 6 and now 4-5 of them are taken for awhile.  This year Pearson, Baertschi, Spooner, Leivo, Goldobin and maybe Nyquist will be fighting for them.  Podkolzin, Hoglander, Madden, Lind will be fighting for them in future.

[Darius]

2 hours ago, Losing With Pride said:

Okay but then I look at a team like Colorado that has:

 

MacKinnon

Landeskog

Rantanen

Barrie

Girard

Newhook

Makar

Byram

Timmins

Kamenev

Jost

Grubauer

Colorado 2020 1st Round Pick

 

I don't see Joe Sakic trading away 1st round picks. He knows the capabilities of his team and the closest thing to mortgaging the future was the trade for Brassard for a third round pick. They are a stronger team than us and have more prospect depth than we do. (Yes I get a lot of it was from the Duchene trade)

That's the kind of depth you want when you start trading away first round picks.  I can't see anyone being happy with this team just making the playoffs and losing out in the first round.

[/quote]

 

To be fair though Colorado has had 2 advantages

1.  They started drafting high back in 2009 (10 years ago)

2.  They have had the luxury of drafting 1st overall (McKinnon who is arguably a  top 3 talent  in the league), 2nd overall (Landeskog) and 3rd overall (Duchene). In other words their best pieces were drafted from a position the Canucks never have been in.  Not only have they never been in that position getting into that position is a lot harder now with the revised draft lotto rules.

 

But this may be beside the point.  My point was how long do people want the team to fumble in the basement just so that they can make a list of prospects (like you have above)  10 years? 11 years?  Colorado, outside of a couple years, hasnt been very good for a decade.

 

What effect does this have on the players?  Well, lets hear it/read it from the horses mouth (the same Duchene you bring up)

 

Why did Duchene want out of Colorado?

https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/21315211/asking-idol-joe-sakic-trade-avalanche-tough

Quote

 

"It was something I sat on for a long time. I wanted to wait and see how things panned out," Duchene said. "Last year when it happened, it was around the time I saw the writing on the wall in terms of the future of that franchise, in terms of the rest of my contract. We had a horrific year last year, and I could see a rebuild coming. It was something I've been a part of, multiple times, and I just couldn't do it."

 

Do you think Bo Horvat, Brock Boeser, Elias etc want to stick around and keep losing for the next 5 years just so that the org can collect highly touted prospects? 

 

Not only that, i think some fans forget that the bottom line is that the NHL is a business.  Vancouver is a fickle market.  Do you expect any business owner wants to keep losing gate revenue year after year?  This puts tremendous pressure on GMs to not stay in the basement for a decade.

 

 

Quote

 

If Colorado added JT Miller to their offence, it would make a lot more sense than us.  (Colorado was an offside away from making the Western Finals.  We can't even come close to making the playoffs)

 

But alright, I'll go with the people on this board raving on how the Miller trade was a move in the right direction.  Hopefully he can put up 25 goals and/or 50 points. 

 

 

Well, I like this move.  Im tired of losing.  No playoff wins since 2011.  Do you want to keep losing till 2021 so that our prospect pool looks nice?  Colorado's pool looks nice, probably nicer than the Stanley cup champs...but draft day trophies alone do not bring you the cup....many factors go into it like giving up assets to fill needs.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Darius

[Ray_Cathode]

18 hours ago, Hutton Wink said:

Shush you, trying to dredge up worst-possible-case scenarios to discredit the trade...

The trade is already discredited on its face and in comparison to other deals that went down. The undeniable record of Canuck drafting failures is right here: Overview Piece On Our Recent Drafting 

 

[oldnews]

45 minutes ago, Maketherightmove said:

That list was full of putrid names, guys that the Nucks don't have the assets to acquire, or guys that are in the range of Biega & Schenn. As I said, Stralman or Benn would be alright as they probably are going to be reasonable $ and term, or bringing back Schenn would be great. But the majority of your suggestions were vomit-inducing. We want the team to get better, friend. 

you clearly don't have the ability to assess players that's necessary to 'maketherightmove'

that you lump all of them as putrid, unattainable and/or replacement level is absurd.

carry on with the archair that takes no positions act, that is unless you have any 'right moves' ideas.

[rekker]

Listening to NHL Network today and of the four pundits that commented on the Miller trade all were good with it. Maybe a touch much but none called it a cap dump but a hockey trade and all agreed the Canucks got a youngish, gritty  player that they needed. Even Boomer who is usually down on the Canucks said it was a fair trade. 

 

 

[DeNiro]

6 minutes ago, rekker said:

Listening to NHL Network today and of the four pundits that commented on the Miller trade all were good with it. Maybe a touch much but none called it a cap dump but a hockey trade and all agreed the Canucks got a youngish, gritty  player that they needed. Even Boomer who is usually down on the Canucks said it was a fair trade. 

 

 

I think alot of people who may have been against it in the beginning are coming around.

 

Once the shock wears off of us trading a first round pick, you realize that Miller is a good player on a good contract that you gotta give something valuable to acquire.

 

I think too often in this market fans think that we're going to get good players for scraps. Everything has to be a "steal" otherwise our GM sucks.

[Me_]

1 minute ago, DeNiro said:

I think alot of people who may have been against it in the beginning are coming around.

 

Once the shock wears off of us trading a first round pick, you realize that Miller is a good player on a good contract that you gotta give something valuable to acquire.

 

I think too often in this market fans think that we're going to get good players for scraps. Everything has to be a "steal" otherwise our GM sucks.

Dead on.

[Smashian Kassian]

2 hours ago, aGENT said:

Most trades involve some risk.

 

1 hour ago, danaimo said:

Agreed, Most trades carry risk.  Being too afraid to make trades guarantees mediocrity. Pick your poison.

 

In this case its not just 'some risk'. Its a perfect example of mortgaging the future.

 

Expansion draft will throw a wrench into things too, we'll see how it goes. 

 

2 hours ago, appleboy said:

There is always risk involved in moving a top pick for a 26 year old. You give up 8 years of potential playing time. That's why it is usually a move that is done by clubs that are close. Teams that are looking for that last piece or two. We are a building team . One with more holes then swiss cheese.  If and it is a big if that pick becomes a lotto pick and it lands a top 3 pick we will all be very upset. We could miss out on a franchise player. 

Every time a team try's to speed up a rebuild it is at the risk of setting things back.  Now , it is a gamble and it might work out. I have been trying to get some info on the 2021 draft round but it is hard to say yet.

I think Benning and the owners are rolling the dice and hopping for the best. Is that the kind of management you can trust?  This would have been a good year to , say land another first not sell one. 

We will see how the year unfolds but I don't think it will end up with a playoff birth.  

 

Its not going to be a playoff team with this defense. Hence why there all-in on Tyler Myers.

 

Its a bit early to tell on the 2021 draft, Luke Hughes for example is just going to be starting with his junior club (USNTDP) that he'll be with leading into the draft. Same goes the other prospects I'd assume. I just know 2020 is protected to be really good.

 

The risk involved for me isn't so much getting a 26 year old, because he's still prime aged & he's under club control for awhile.

 

The cost is giving up a truly great young player with that draft pick. Even if we sneak in next year & give up a 16th - 18th overall pick, its still a strong year. In 2015 those picks were Matthew Barzal, Kyle Connor, and Thomas Chabot. And then of course in 2021 it could be a lottery pick.

 

If its a later 1st, like 20+ I think its a fine trade. Its just can we take big steps like that so soon.