A realistic analysis of Jim Benning's tenure so far

[Nuxfanabroad]

1 minute ago, Convincing John said:

I love my kids but they piss me off too. The same applies to Benning. I can like him and want to slap his face at the same time, can’t I? 

Say the rosary enough & it's carte blanche..at least that's how my old man used to think.

[13231]

1 minute ago, Convincing John said:

Did Tampa spend to the cap when they drafted their core? 

I'm not sure, but I also don't see how this is relevant man. The fact is, Tampa won in 2020, 12 years after they drafted the first piece of their core. Teams go through ups and downs before they win it all. Washington & St. Louis being other recent examples. As it stands, we're in a good place to compete for many years to come, and it's completely unrealistic to believe we would be making a cup run last year no matter how to reassemble the roster.   

[oldnews]

Just now, Convincing John said:

Did Tampa spend to the cap when they drafted their core? 

which core?  the first or the second?

Florida (or California, or Arizona, etc) are not comparable hockey markets to Vancouver wadr.

those markets are full of casual, fair-weather, bandwagon fans....when those teams aren't winning, what happens in those markets.

The Kings last run for example couldn't even sell playoff tickets in the early rounds because folks were waiting for the finals....

people here are rabid - they spend their money on hockey regardless.

Benning doesn't make decisions in a vacuum - he serves more than one 'master' - and one of those is not a 'rebuild' - it's ownership.

[Fred65]

52 minutes ago, Alain Vigneault said:

He's probably at D+/C- if we're being honest.  I'm not sure you can give points for drafting in the top 5/top 10...aren't you expected to do well in that range?  Evidently, even that's been a tough job because the team dropped the ball on Juolevi & Virtanen and it remains to be seen with Podkolzin.

 

He's passing but only just.  There's probably much better guys out there, especially after 7 years.

I think we tend to look at the job he's done in isolation. I tend to think the job Sakic has done and Gorton in NY is ahead of Vcr. We can debate the merit of the Virtanen, Juolevi but considering where they were picked we should have  done better. I'm hoping for better from Podkolzyn but IMO it's a coin toss. JB strength we are told are his scouting abilities. IMHO the difference maker for JB was and is the selection of Pettersson. I do not believe in JB's wildest dream that he anticipated how well EP would turn out. Without EP Benning would fall far behind Sakic and Gorton. His management skills can rightfully be questioned. The impact of the Ericksson deal has and continues to be a huge huge hurdle and not far behind is Beagle and Roussel. Ask yourself this question what's the difference between Sautner and Benn. Heck Chatfield is ahead of Benn, that's not good Cap management IMHO. Finally ask if he is replaced do you believe that a replacement will be worse equal of better. I think the odds are a new GM will be better. For too many yeasr it appeared that there was no plan in Vcr .... years wasted

Edited January 28, 2021 by Fred65

[oldnews]

1 hour ago, Convincing John said:

I’ve been silently lurking these boards a long time as well and I’m just so tired of people either blindly defending Benning or blindly hating him.

If that's all you've seen  - the blindness is your own.

 

True only in generalization - that discussions tend to become 'bipolar' / and mimic mindless ideological squabbling.

 

Irony however - if you want the 'nuanced' version of discussion - don't initiate / bring the mindless ideological references in yourself - it wrecks your alleged goal/claim.

Edited January 28, 2021 by oldnews

[luckylager]

I don't typically weigh in on these JB threads because I'm torn. I love a lot of the stuff he's done, restocking the shelves was huge undertaking, and I think he's done a good job in that regard.

 

But man I hate some of the other stuff.. and I'm not gonna bother diving into it.

 

JB has put together what looks like a very promising young core, and thats a great thing, so I'll just be happy about that and skip giving him an overall grade.

[ruilin96]

1 hour ago, Zhukini said:

I mean he’s 6 years in, he may as well get a chance to see his plan through. 
 

Players peak younger than the 28-32 though. They don’t have to win the cup in the next two years but they need to show they can compete in a 7 game series with the heavyweights.

 

What Calgary did post 2015 is unacceptable. I’m sure he’ll get this off-season, and expectations will be and should be sky high for the coming season.

Calgary's 2015 team was a fluke if you ask me. Terrible corsi ratio as well as too many unsustainable 3rd period come back wins.

 

I have said it many times, with Gaudreau and Monahan has their best forwards, and Monahan as their #1 C, they will never win more than 1 round of playoffs.

[13231]

3 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

I think we tend to look at the job he's done in isolation. I tend to think the job Sakic has done and Gorton in NY is ahead of Vcr. We can debate the merit of the Virtanen, Juolevi but considering where they were picked we should have  done better. I'm hoping for better from Podkolzyn but IMO it's a coin toss. JB strength we are told are his scouting abilities. IMHO the difference maker for JB was and is the selection of Pettersson. I do not believe in JB's wildest dream that he anticipated how well EP would turn out. Without EP Benning would fall far behind Sakic and Gorton. His management skills can rightfully be questioned. The impact of the Ericksson deal has and continues to be a huge huge hurdle and not far behind is Beagle and Roussel. Ask yourself this question what's the difference between Sautner and Benn. Heck Chatfield is ahead of Benn, that's not good Cap management IMHO. Finally ask if he is replaced do you believe that a replacement will be worse equal of better. I think the odds are a new GM will be better. For too many yeasr it appeared that there was no plan in Vcr .... years wasted

Sakic inherited two huge pieces in Mackinnon and Landeskog, and deserves credit for the trades and draft picks that landed him players like Makar, Rantanen and Girard. But keep in mind Mack and Landeskog are 1st and 2nd overall picks. The highest pick from our core is a 5th. Benning has arguably drafted better than Sakic, with more players selected in a lower order succeeding at the NHL level. Gorton is a tbd scenario. Zibanejad came into his own last year in his 4th year in NY, Panarin literally selected to go to that team, and their prospects are largely unproven up to this point. We are right in the mix of the top recent rebuilds (I would also include Carolina in this)

[Convincing John]

12 minutes ago, oldnews said:

which core?  the first or the second?

Florida (or California, or Arizona, etc) are not comparable hockey markets to Vancouver wadr.

those markets are full of casual, fair-weather, bandwagon fans....when those teams aren't winning, what happens in those markets.

The Kings last run for example couldn't even sell playoff tickets in the early rounds because folks were waiting for the finals....

people here are rabid - they spend their money on hockey regardless.

Benning doesn't make decisions in a vacuum - he serves more than one 'master' - and one of those is not a 'rebuild' - it's ownership.

Again, I love Benning and 75% of what he has done. A lot of his moves are mind blowing. Motte, McEwen, Miller drafting some gems after round 1. He has done way more good than bad. But sometimes you gotta call out the bad. Let’s say it is ownership pressing him. What if on July 3rd Francisco says “Jim, why haven’t you spent all my money? And Jim says, I’m going to just sit on that $6M and see if I can acquire a expiring RFA that a GM can’t afford or a causality of a big contract. Do you think he’d be mad?  

[Dr. Crossbar]

11 minutes ago, luckylager said:

I don't typically weigh in on these JB threads because I'm torn. I love a lot of the stuff he's done, restocking the shelves was huge undertaking, and I think he's done a good job in that regard.

 

But man I hate some of the other stuff.. and I'm not gonna bother diving into it.

 

JB has put together what looks like a very promising young core, and thats a great thing, so I'll just be happy about that and skip giving him an overall grade.

Good take and well said! 

[Fred65]

1 minute ago, 13231 said:

Sakic inherited two huge pieces in Mackinnon and Landeskog, and deserves credit for the trades and draft picks that landed him players like Makar, Rantanen and Girard. But keep in mind Mack and Landeskog are 1st and 2nd overall picks. The highest pick from our core is a 5th. Benning has arguably drafted better than Sakic, with more players selected in a lower order succeeding at the NHL level. Gorton is a tbd scenario. Zibanejad came into his own last year in his 4th year in NY, Panarin literally selected to go to that team, and their prospects are largely unproven up to this point. We are right in the mix of the top recent rebuilds (I would also include Carolina in this)

What's seperates Sakic is the defence has has  assembled. For a number of seasons MacKinnon was not as prominent as he is now, ex  Duchene. Sakic played the Duchene trade like a violin. He got a 1st round pick ( Bowen Byron and Samuel Girard ) and dumped $6 mill. the Avs are the team of the future and likely the best D in the league. NY brought in a GM that as clearly heavily researched ( a relatively unknown ) and cleared out a lot of Cap Space and the drafted well

[BCNate]

Benning has made some awful moves, no real debate there.  He has also made some fantastic moves, even the blindest haters have to recognize those as well.  I think he has learned and improved each year, and drafted well from the start.  Almost all of his bad/awful moves are gone next year, and the great moves are still on the roster going forward.  I think he has done a good job overall for us through the rebuild.  However we arrived at this point, we will have some real money to build around a very good core right when we are ready to legit compete.  I think it's hard to argue that we are set up for a potentially very bright period in the coming years.

 

He overpaid and gave too much term for Vets to shelter our young guys.  We are paying for it right now, but I still think it was the right move long term.  Look at Ottawa, and how their young guys are progressing without that leadership. Most teams fail at rebuilding because they don't bring in the right guys to shelter their prospects and let them develop, Benning did a pretty good job of that.

[oldnews]

7 minutes ago, Convincing John said:

Again, I love Benning and 75% of what he has done. A lot of his moves are mind blowing. Motte, McEwen, Miller drafting some gems after round 1. He has done way more good than bad. But sometimes you gotta call out the bad. Let’s say it is ownership pressing him. What if on July 3rd Francisco says “Jim, why haven’t you spent all my money? And Jim says, I’m going to just sit on that $6M and see if I can acquire a expiring RFA that a GM can’t afford or a causality of a big contract. Do you think he’d be mad?  

it's impossible to agree with all the decisions any GM makes.  and all of them make 'mistakes' - it's part of the game when you make as many decisions and take as many risks as they all necessarily do.

 

I've made it plenty clear over the years the ones I agree with - and those I don't - and can't be bothered to rehash or qualify them.

 

Why would Benning be 'mad' for that (hypothetical) strategy?  I find the question borderline meaningless.  What RFA that a GM couldn't afford are you proposing?

 

What isn't in 'style' imo - are overkilled, cheap Trump references = so if you're going to talk about what's in vogue - mind numbing political/ideological references with no real place in a hockey discussion don't cut it... are 'liberal' motivation to make use of the ignore function.  I imagine we can manage a decent hockey discussion otherwise.

[13231]

1 minute ago, Fred65 said:

What's seperates Sakic is the defence has has  assembled. For a number of seasons MacKinnon was not as prominent as he is now, ex  Duchene. Sakic played the Duchene trade like a violin. He got a 1st round pick ( Bowen Byron and Samuel Girard ) and dumped $6 mill. the Avs are the team of the future and likely the best D in the league. NY brought in a GM that as clearly heavily researched ( a relatively unknown ) and cleared out a lot of Cap Space and the drafted well

Agreed. And holy, that Duchene trade was a masterclass. From my point of view, all three GMs in question had completely different starting points and teams they inherited. Sakic had Mack and Landeskog & Duchene as a massive trading chip (it was inevitable he was leaving). Gorton had Zibanejad emerge, the huge fortune of Panarin choosing the NYR, and high, hard to miss draft picks like Kakko, Lafreniere. And Benning inherited only Horvat as a key prospect & an ownership group determined to stay competitive. But as I've originally pointed, since the rebuild became definitive as of 2017-2018, we have trended upwards in a huge way, and in the mix as one of the fastest and most impressive rebuilds without the luxury of 1st and 2nd overall picks, the leverage of huge trading chips or top 10 talent level free agent signings. 

[Convincing John]

2 minutes ago, oldnews said:

it's impossible to agree with all the decisions any GM makes.  and all of them make 'mistakes' - it's part of the game when you make as many decisions and take as many risks as they all necessarily do.

 

I've made it plenty clear over the years the ones I agree with - and those I don't - and can't be bothered to rehash or qualify them.

 

Why would Benning be 'mad' for that (hypothetical) strategy?  I find the question borderline meaningless.  What RFA that a GM couldn't afford are you proposing?

 

What isn't in 'style' imo - are overkilled, cheap Trump references = so if you're going to talk about what's in vogue - mind numbing political/ideological references with no real place in a hockey discussion don't cut it... are 'liberal' motivation to make use of the ignore function.  I imagine we can manage a decent hockey discussion otherwise.

I wasn’t trying to be political when I compared you to Shapiro, I apologize. I was saying you debate like he does. I have sincerely enjoyed a lot of your posts over the years. You pay attention. I’ve not agreed with you in the past, read a few of your posts and you’ve changed my mind. 
 

I would like to see us make more Schmidt and Miller deals rather than Beagle and Myers deals. That’s what I mean by big contract casualties. It’s a progressive move, signing 28 year olds to big contracts are near term decisions that almost always bite back. 

[Davathor]

1 hour ago, 13231 said:

I agree, the next wave of free agency signings will be a big part of his legacy. For the first time he'll be in a position to assemble a true contender, as opposed to looking for role players to shelter and mentor the youngins. 

 

Not gonna quote your OP, but I will day i wish more 'new' posters thought their posts out like you have.

 

Looking forward to your thoughts on Jim's evil brother, Jam Banning.

[oldnews]

19 minutes ago, Convincing John said:

I wasn’t trying to be political when I compared you to Shapiro, I apologize. I was saying you debate like he does. I have sincerely enjoyed a lot of your posts over the years. You pay attention. I’ve not agreed with you in the past, read a few of your posts and you’ve changed my mind. 
 

I would like to see us make more Schmidt and Miller deals rather than Beagle and Myers deals. That’s what I mean by big contract casualties. It’s a progressive move, signing 28 year olds to big contracts are near term decisions that almost always bite back. 

Thanks and no worries - I'd have to google Ben Shapiro to know who the guy is - but first I'd have to care enough about Trump's chorus to bother --which I don't.

 

Btw - if you agree with 75% of Benning's moves - be careful - I think that would put you in homer territory haha.

 

I don't see Beagle as a significant enough contract - or term - to be too concerned -and I think he's a necessary 'foundation' piece over that duration.  I don't see those kind of hard minutes as mere 'mentoring' - and I agree with rewarding Beagle, Dorsett types in general for being the 'warriors' they've been. On the contrary - I'd much rather see the millions shaved off the Matthews, Nylanders etc of the NHL and go to their team-mates, who work harder than they do.   I'd sign the Beagle deal all over again in a heartbeat - and probably add yet another veteran depth center to the mix (if I could have signed Richardson this offseason, I would have - and moved wingers.  The deal I didn't care for that summer was the Roussel deal - explained my reasons at the time and feel pretty much the same way about it today.

I don't have a problem with the Myers deal - I would have if it had been in the dramatically projected range of $50 million / 7x7.  

It was 5 years by the way - and $30 million is quite a huge chunk away from $49/50.

Edited January 28, 2021 by oldnews

[ImConfused]

Great post, should be on NHL.com

 

+1 upvote

[Patel Bure]

2 hours ago, 13231 said:

I've been following this forum since 2008 and it's always great to read different perspectives about this team that we all love. Although I've hardly posted over the years, I feel compelled to now because I think we have a team that is unlike any other we've had before; at least within the time frame that I've been following the Canucks (the 02-03 season, the glorious WCE days). 

 

The person at the crux of moulding this roster is the ever polarizing Jim Benning. Love him or hate him, you have to admit that his run as GM, from what he inherited to what he is building up, has been unprecedented. The following is my personal perspective on what his run has been like, and why we must be a little more patient and let him see his vision through. 

 

The end of the Gillis era was one of the most frustrating times for me as a fan. The team had no clear direction, random trades were made on a whim, the embarrassing goalie "controversy" & how that was handled, on top of the fact that we all knew the Sedins had a few more good years in them that were being completely wasted had all of us pretty exhausted. When Benning came in as GM in 2014, it was clear through interviews with him & Linden that the team was still aiming to compete, and moves made in the subsequent couple of years were a clear indication of that objective. Good or bad, it's pretty accurate to ascertain that ownership believed that the team could still be competitive, and moved steadily in that direction. I see every move made in this era as an attempt at a long shot playoff run, whether it's the Loui signing, the various trades, and all else. But things just did not work out, and finally during the 2017-2018 it became clear that we were undergoing a full fledged rebuild. This is where my assessment of Benning's tenure truly starts. 

 

If you guys recall, the 2017-2018 season started off quite strong until injuries decimated us. But Boes & Bo had solid seasons and there was this guy named Pettersson that was tearing it up and breaking records in the SHL. I remember feeling optimistic having 3 legitimate young players on the come up, right as the Sedins played their final season. When was the last time we had something like that? Keep in mind this was just about three years ago, which is not that long of a time span at all. We have witnessed a team that lost its two faces of franchise, was going through misguided hopes of playoff runs, and a guaranteed basement dweller go into its deepest run since 2011 and legitimately in talks of being a long term contender within the span of three years. 

I think a lot of fans would benefit to broaden their perspective on what is going on here. Everything seems to be evaluated on such black & white terms, whereas we have a team in hand that is so ahead of schedule and the envy of many fan bases around the league (whether they want to admit it or not). I look at Detroit, Colorado, Carolina, Toronto, Arizona, Buffalo, Minnesota, Edmonton, even Calgary & Montreal, and how long it took some of them to become competitive. I can't help but feel that some of us really take our situation for granted.

 

On a few critiques that Benning gets, especially pertaining to this off season: There is no way I would be comfortable in having Marky & Tanev to those contracts long term. The only guy we lost that would make sense to still have is Tofolli, but you can't overlook the flat cap & the shady Lou recapture situation that blind sided us. Regardless, I have immense faith in Hog & it wouldn't surprise me if he ends the season with more points than Tofolli. His overall 200 foot game has so much potential as well. On the topic of the bottom six contracts, I agree they might be a bit overpaid, but look at where we were when we signed those guys, that veteran presence was essential. And there is no way we make a playoff run last summer without the likes of Sutter & Beagle. That's another aspect you cannot look at in black and white terms because the value of these guys is what teams like Edmonton, Buffalo, Arizona, and currently Ottawa have all lacked. It is entirely unreasonable to believe that this season or last would be seasons we'd be competing for the cup; the time frame when these contracts hold their greatest weight on the cap overall. When it's said & done, especially with majority of those contracts coming off the books as soon as this off season, I think our team long term in context of creating a team culture and helping our young players develop, has been better off with those guys being around than without them.

 

I want to close by again underscoring the fact that we are in an unprecedented situation. The WCE era and the Sedin era are the two most prolific times our team has had in the past 20 years. But both eras had a 3-4 year window, as those players peaked a bit later in their careers. With the team we have now, we have already gone further than the WCE ever did, and this is a team that has truly only been assembled and taken direction in the last 3 years. The window here to be legitimate contenders seems to be open for several years to come. Our core is young, and they are coming into their own in a positive and competitive team culture & environment, that many other rebuilding teams lacked. And the man at the helm of this has had his ups & downs but he's done something in the last three years that majority of teams around the league would take in a heart beat. So let's keep our perspective focused on the long term, understand the gray areas that challenged our team, and ultimately enjoy this era. I will openly admit I was wrong if management takes a blatant wrong turn, but with the hand that was dealt turning into what we have now, I am greatly looking forward ahead to being a Canucks fan. 

 

Cheers & take care guys

 

 

Great post.  Oddly enough, you would probably receive a warning or an infraction at HF Canucks for this post of yours on the basis of trolling since anyone that dares to praise Benning over there is seen as a troll.  :-o

[Jetliner]

Acquisition of quality players thru draft/free agency/trade is a huge plus for Benning.  the positives outweigh the negatives

 

However, our system of play is a big fail tho, defensively. We can't play well consistently. Our recent success against the bottom tier Sens masks the fact that we are a team that struggles defensively, mightily. This is been the case for the past 3-4 years. You can argue that it's Green's fault, but its the collective coaching staff. In the bigger perspective, a large part of the fault is on Benning. for not hiring more experienced assistant coaches to support Green.

 

I would give Benning a B-