Expansion draft, who are you keeping ?

[kanucks25]

56 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

you won't get me to dump on Beagle, I'm a fan of his play and what he brings. Rooster... ugh, pre-knee injury it was looking good, now, not so much.

 

If you can show me who was out there, willing to come to us, that was better than Beagle for cheaper, I'm all ears.

 

If we must fire Benning, if we're going down that path for a moment, I'd say cap management. This year should have been better. That doesn't mean I wanted Marky and Tanev on their deals because I think letting them go was the right move, but still paying for Gagne and not finding a way to move Loui would be the reasons. I do not blame him for the Sedin re-jig crashing and burning, I put most of that on Linden and Aqua as they set the vision, Jim did his best to make it happen. 

 

But then that begs the question - who's better and available? Futa? another rookier GM? tell me who's out there that would be better for right now. 

These are questions you already know I don't have the answers to as I'm not privy to the inner workings of the NHL and their organizations at the management level. We'll never know what players or what options were available at any given time, but again I'm not willing to operate under the assumption that whatever Benning did was best-case scenario - nothing I've seen from him gives me that kind of confidence.

 

At this point, I'm willing to risk that the next guy is somehow even worse than continue being content with unhappiness and mediocrity. Let's not fear the unknown, let's shoot for the stars

[Gawdzukes]

31 minutes ago, mll said:

Would be surprised if Seattle picks an expensive contract from Vancouver.

 

To give an idea of what it would take to move an unwanted 3M contract.  Staples for The Athletic NYI asked fans to submit trade proposals and he had a couple of NHL executives assess them.

 

Executive 1 doesn’t think Hall can bring back a 1st at the TDL, but he doesn’t think that 2x 1st (2021 & 2022) + Komarov can get Hall.  The cost to dump Komarov’s 3M contract in this flat cap world is near impossible according to him.

 

Would expect teams to have a hard time moving unwanted contracts.  Seattle might be able to make out like bandits if that’s the cost to clear 3M - it’s not even 2M on the cap if he gets demoted to the AHL.

 

There will probably be good players available at a more efficient cap hit in free agency than the players Vancouver wishes to move.  The trade market might not be any better than last off-season with the cap staying flat for several years.

I was just thinking when it comes down to scraps just maybe they prefer a bottom 6 vet player who will expire compared 2 a rookie who they don't see as having a future. You're most certainly right but depending on what other 30 guys they end up with just a slight chance they could lean that way. After all this expansion draft should be unique like they all are.

[JM_]

8 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

These are questions you already know I don't have the answers to as I'm not privy to the inner workings of the NHL and their organizations at the management level. We'll never know what players or what options were available at any given time, but again I'm not willing to operate under the assumption that whatever Benning did was best-case scenario - nothing I've seen from him gives me that kind of confidence.

 

At this point, I'm willing to risk that the next guy is somehow even worse than continue being content with unhappiness and mediocrity. Let's not fear the unknown, let's shoot for the stars

[kanucks25]

1 minute ago, Jimmy McGill said:

Let's also not fear failure.

[JM_]

15 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

Let's also not fear failure.

I know. I just think a lot of the criticism of Benning relies on assumptions that we just can't prove. I also get that what we've seen is enough for people to want to can him.

 

I don't think right now is the time. His more recent RFA deals have been fine. He has stated publicly we won't see any more deals like the one for Roussel. Changing now would be a mistake imo, lets at least wait for the draft and post-expansion UFA market. There's really only one position we should be looking to fill with a UFA anyway at 3C.

 

If after that we need a GM better at making deals by all means lets look at that market. But I don't know who that would be at the moment. 

[kanucks25]

2 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

I know. I just think a lot of the criticism of Benning relies on assumptions that we just can't prove. I also get that what we've seen is enough for people to want to can him.

It goes both ways, there are assumptions on either side (the leadership discussion we just had, drafting, etc.)

 

2 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

I don't think right now is the time. His more recent RFA deals have been fine. He has stated publicly we won't see any more deals like the one for Roussel. Changing now would be a mistake imo, lets at least wait for the draft and post-expansion UFA market. There's really only one position we should be looking to fill with a UFA anyway at 3C.

I understand why people want to let Benning see it through - it's "his" team now for the most part and what's happened in the past are sunk costs. "We may as well let him finish what he started".

 

I guess we can agree to disagree on this. IMO we've seen exactly how a hard decision in this almost exact same situation benefited us in the past (firing Nonis for Gillis).

 

Also, for what it's worth, 3C is vital going forward but I think this D still needs an overhaul, bringing us back full circle to the actual discussion for this thread

 

2 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

But I don't know who that would be at the moment. 

IMO if we were to go the Futa route, I would want us to hire a PoHO as a buffer between him and ownership.

 

If instead we went with someone like Lombardi, we probably wouldn't need that.

Edited March 24, 2021 by kanucks25

[The Lock]

2 hours ago, kanucks25 said:

IMO we've seen exactly how a hard decision in this almost exact same situation benefited us in the past (firing Nonis for Gillis).

I just want to point one thing out with this. How are we to know that Nonis wouldn't have taken us to the cup? For example, while he did trade away picks for rentals (lol remember Carney and Weinrich?), he also established much of the core with Luongo, Schneider, Edler, Hansen, Raymond, etc.

 

Just something to think about. Maybe the exact same situation with Nonis being fired helped us, or maybe it's something we'll never actually know.

Edited March 24, 2021 by The Lock

[kanucks25]

7 minutes ago, The Lock said:

I just want to point one thing out with this. How are we to know that Nonis wouldn't have taken us to the cup? For example, while he did trade away picks for rentals (lol remember Carney and Weinrich?), he also established much of the core with Luongo, Schneider, Edler, Hansen, Raymond, etc.

 

Just something to think about. Maybe the exact same situation with Nonis being fired helped us, or maybe it's something we'll never actually know.

You're right, it's possible Nonis would have taken us there but considering how hard it is to make it there (just 3 times in 50+ years for us), I think odds are we wouldn't have. Lots of things have to line up correctly for you to make it that far and IMO Gillis was a big one of those "things".

 

I would never say that if Benning is replaced the next guy is definitely going to be better. Who knows, he could actually be worse. My point is that this worry should not stop us from making hard decisions.

[The Lock]

7 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

You're right, it's possible Nonis would have taken us there but considering how hard it is to make it there (just 3 times in 50+ years for us), I think odds are we wouldn't have. Lots of things have to line up correctly for you to make it that far and IMO Gillis was a big one of those "things".

 

I would never say that if Benning is replaced the next guy is definitely going to be better. Who knows, he could actually be worse. My point is that this worry should not stop us from making hard decisions.

I guess my response is to just keep in mind, it is still a decision, meaning one of the options is to keep Benning if it's been looked into and there's not much better out there at the moment.  lol

[mll]

6 hours ago, Gawdzukes said:

I was just thinking when it comes down to scraps just maybe they prefer a bottom 6 vet player who will expire compared 2 a rookie who they don't see as having a future. You're most certainly right but depending on what other 30 guys they end up with just a slight chance they could lean that way. After all this expansion draft should be unique like they all are.

I wonder if a UFA like Baertschi could not end up being their pick.  League minimum contract and if it doesn’t work out he can be sent to the AHL.  He’s had a great attitude in Utica and would be a solid vet to help out their prospects.  Graovac, Sautner could also be taken as AHL veterans. 

 

I don’t see them voluntarily taking an inefficient contract without an incentive.  There could be several teams trying to strike a deal to move some cap space.

[Chris12345]

3 minutes ago, mll said:

I wonder if a UFA like Baertschi could not end up being their pick.  League minimum contract and if it doesn’t work out he can be sent to the AHL.  He’s had a great attitude in Utica and would be a solid vet to help out their prospects.  Graovac, Sautner could also be taken as AHL veterans. 

 

I don’t see them voluntarily taking an inefficient contract without an incentive.  There could be several teams trying to strike a deal to move some cap space.

Why wouldn't they just sign Baer?

 

 

[mll]

7 minutes ago, Chris12345 said:

Why wouldn't they just sign Baer?

 

 

Canucks might not leave any quality players available.  They might feel it’s better to take a player for their farm than a long shot prospect or a bad contract.  Prospects with little upside are not necessarily worth their development cost - it takes resources away from players who have upside.  Seattle can only pick players who have been pros at least 3 years.

[DSVII]

Boeser

Horvat

Miller

Motte

Lind

Guadette

Petterson

 

Schmidt

Juolevi

Rafferty

 

Demko

 

Use the extra slot at Defense to try and swing a hockey trade for a Dman we can protect from a team that is going to lose a defenseman for nothing. Otherwise keep this as is.

 

I really think Myer's contract will guarantee Seattle passes on him for Jake.. And if Seattle takes him, we have cap space to maneuver in a free agency that has Dmen like Parayko, Seth Jones, Lindholm, Rielly, Pulock, Manson to name a few.

[Chris12345]

Just now, mll said:

Canucks might not leave any quality players available.  They might feel it’s better to take a player for their farm than a long shot prospect or a bad contract.  Prospects with little upside are not necessarily worth their development cost - it takes resources away from players who have upside.  Seattle can only pick players who have been pros at least 3 years.

I'd take Holtby. 

 

 

[mll]

10 minutes ago, Chris12345 said:

I'd take Holtby. 

 

 

There will be better goalies available.   Goalies like Cal Petersen, Fleury or Kuemper have been performing beyond their environment per the private tracking company CSA - posted the overview a few pages back.  Holtby has been performing below expected.

 

He’s owed 5.7M next season in salary.  At the signing several pointed out that it was savvy by Benning as it will make him less likely to be picked by Seattle.  That was before the season started and with hope that Clark could get him back on track.  He’s been relegated to a backup role.

 

Edited March 25, 2021 by mll

[ABNuck]

Apologies if discussed somewhere in the previous 15 pages...what is the status of Ferland? If the NHL rules him to be an eligible player then we MUST burn a spot to protect him do we not (full NMC)?

[DSVII]

12 minutes ago, ABNuck said:

Apologies if discussed somewhere in the previous 15 pages...what is the status of Ferland? If the NHL rules him to be an eligible player then we MUST burn a spot to protect him do we not (full NMC)?

His contract turns to a modified no trade clause after this year instead of NTC, so it doesn't look like we need to protect him. (Some forethought there at least!)

Edited March 25, 2021 by DSVII

[Gawdzukes]

On 3/12/2021 at 11:48 PM, mll said:

How do you get another D to meet the requirement.  Players probably have the leverage in extension talks and in a trade other GMs can see full well that Vancouver would be missing a D to expose.

 

Can't we make a real cheap acquisition at the deadline or waiver pickup at the end of the year? Someone we can waive or play as number 7 dman next year if need be.

[Gawdzukes]

13 hours ago, mll said:

I wonder if a UFA like Baertschi could not end up being their pick.  League minimum contract and if it doesn’t work out he can be sent to the AHL.  He’s had a great attitude in Utica and would be a solid vet to help out their prospects.  Graovac, Sautner could also be taken as AHL veterans. 

 

I don’t see them voluntarily taking an inefficient contract without an incentive.  There could be several teams trying to strike a deal to move some cap space.

While you obviously are right on this Cap, player stuff, and despite your reports of Seattle's analytics viewpoint they are still going to select some inefficient contracts. They are not just going make a pure money ball best bang for your buck team. There are going to be some couple guys taken that way(Johansen/Duchene), especially if they're short contracts it's not going to hurt them at all. It could be us if we bring in another defender and only offer Gaudette. It doesn't really hurt them for one year of Beagle if you pencil him in above Gaudette or Gadjovich for next year anyway. At least Beagle would be a great mentor/glue guy for them in their first year. 

 

I agree it's pretty unlikely but I think we have a better shot than most teams at dumping one of those contracts. Personally I don't think they're going to do near as well as Vegas. First of all Vegas just absolutely hit it out of the park, identifying 10-15 quality guys, including goal scorers, role players, defenders, and a top notch goalie. Other teams aren't going to make the same mistakes this time and load them up with players. Also, looking at the players available ... it doesn't look good for them other than a couple forwards and a good goalie or three.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Gawdzukes

[kanucks25]

12 hours ago, DSVII said:

His contract turns to a modified no trade clause after this year instead of NTC, so it doesn't look like we need to protect him. (Some forethought there at least!)

The bar is low.