The Real reason for picking up Madison Bowey, not what you think. And a Clarification

[Curmudgeon]

26 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

Then why did Benning draft him?

 

Then why did Benning draft him?

Because a draft pick is an asset that is often just as marketable as a roster player. Benning turned McCann into Pearson, who has provided more than McCann could have as a third centre. With McCann's alleged attitude issues, why would you keep him? He turned Madden into Toffoli, although that one ended rather ineptly on Benning's part, but my point is even though those players didn't make the grade in Vancouver, OTHER TEAMS were interested enough to give Vancouver something back. Certainly better than drafting someone that NOBODY else wants.

[Noble 6]

1 hour ago, Gollumpus said:

Unless Hammonic signs for a lesser amount than he is worth (again), I'm assuming that the team will need at least two new RD for next season.

 

UFA targets: While the team might be able to get them for less than what the Canucks are paying Myers, paying for even one of these guys will amount to a savings of maybe $1 million (+/- but probably -), nothing to sniff at, but not anything huge. What is their incentive to sign "here" when they would likely be closer to being on a competitive team somewhere else? Term would (probably) be a problem in some of those cases (eg. Savard at 4 yrs? that would rankle some) and others on the list will want more than what they are worth (which will rankle those not already rankled by term talk), so I'm thinking none of them come cheaper than $5 million per.

 

Trade targets: I would think that Buffalo and the Islanders still need these guys, so I'd assume that the price tag(s) will be high(ish). What sort of assets should the Canucks move out in order to acquire at least one of Miller and Mayfield? High pick(s), and/or a good level of prospect (eg. Lind)?

 

Meh, I've run out of steam. It's baseball season. Thanks for your time. 

 

                                                       regards,  G.

 

I think that you are overestimating the next contracts for most of those UFAs. Savard will probably be the most expensive one at the price/term you mentioned, but the others should get considerably less. The other three players on that list could be under 4M, which saves 2M+ against the cap with likely more flexibility in term/trade protection as well. Since the on ice change would likely be marginal, that's a pure win in my mind.

 

The "incentive to sign here" point could be made in every single offseason with every single player, yet players still choose to sign here. Why did Holtby choose us? Why did Hawryluk? Why did MacEwan, Roussel, Hamonic, Pearson (extension) want to sign here? Pearson could have signed a one year league minimum deal to join the Lightning, but chose not to. Dadanov signed in Ottawa, Hoffman took a 1 year deal, Hall chose Buffalo, etc. It's rare that a decision is made purely for competitive reasons and if Vancouver can present itself as a good fit (which it seems to have in the past, particularly for young players) then I'm not sure why it would randomly become a concern now. It's not like I listed one or two names and if we don't get them we're hooped, I listed 14+ names total of varying quality/price to choose from. 

 

For example, Montour in leaving Buffalo at the deadline said that things felt disorganized there. He felt he didn't have a clear role and there wasn't enough consistency in communicating what was expected from him. Vancouver in their pitch to him and his party could say that should he sign here, he would be the 2nd unit powerplay guy behind Hughes with the expectation of generating offense and moving the play forward from the back end. They would want him to play fast and aggressive, relying on his skating to push the pace. Moreover, his career was looking good in Anaheim but stagnated in Buffalo. Maybe a return to the west coast would be good for him and his family as well.  Montour could see this as an opportunity to play well in his defined role for 1-2 years with some good players in a hockey market and then hopefully set himself up for a bigger contract (with Vancouver or elsewhere) after proving he can perform. This would be similar to what Barrie did this offseason and is just one example of a potential pitch. 

 

Regarding the trade targets, Virtanen for Miller is a trade that Buffalo fans have generally been content with. I don't think that would deplete our assets. Mayfield would be a tougher grab, but like I said with Expansion they may be more willing to move him than normal. The Islanders already dumped Toews (who has been one of the best defensemen in the league) last year and they have Pulock and Dobson as RHD already. Again, all of those names were just ideas being thrown around. If we don't land the exact guy we want then there's no need to panic, that's how you end up overpaying and making foolish decisions. I'm sure that among the 14+ options I listed we can find 2 that work. 

Edited April 13, 2021 by Horvat is a Boss

[CR7]

14 hours ago, Arrow 1983 said:

Three words, Seattle Expansion draft.

 

According to Capfriendly, Rules for Defenseman 

 

under contract in 2021-22, AND played in 27 or more NHL games last season, OR played in 54 or more NHL games in the last two seasons

 

Madison Bowey, point 1 check, point 2 no check, point 3 check. He doesn't even have to play a game for the Canucks to qualify 

 

Prior to this trade, either Schmidt or Myers would have had to be unprotected. This way JB can protect them both now and 1 other my guess Juolevi.

 

One Clarification. 

 

I think there is a misconception around the expansion draft. So here is just a quick clarification on something I have notice,

 

Just because players fall under the Criteria for, Minimum Exposure Requirements, doesn't mean Seattle has to pick one of those guys the key word is Minimum.

 

For example the Canucks, protect 

 

1 Goalie 

Demko

3 dman

Schmidt Myers Juolevi

7forwards,

Horvat, EP, Miller, Pearson, Virtanen, Boeser, and Motte

 

Unprotected, Minimum Exposure Requirements at this point

 

1 Goalie

Holtby 

1 Dman 

Bowey

There is 4 forwards 2 are required

Eriksson, Beagle, Roussel and Highmore 

 

Seattle doesn't have to pick any of them. They could go with Chatfield, Or Kole Lind both will be RFA, or Vesey and he is a UFA there are rules about how many of these Seattle can pick but they can pick him if they want. Or they Can pick MacEwen who is under contract but might not meet the Minimum Exposure Requirements

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is exactly what I thought, but thank you for the clarification  

[canuktravella]

33 minutes ago, Josepho said:

 

It's really interesting you didn't seem to think so before Benning traded him.

 ya then i looked at how tiny he was  i could be wrong   he was good in ncaa but is he gonna be the same in nhl doubtful. hes 21 5’11 not short but weighs 152  does he not eat  like get on the gym and steak and guinness diet i was 5’1 120 when i was 17 by 18 i was 6’1 155  by the time i was 21 i was 6’4 179    and i didnt have a fancy pro hockey diet   but i was in good shape biked 70km 2 times a week and played hockey 4 nights

[canuktravella]

13 hours ago, Arrow 1983 said:

The truly sad part of Tanev leaving, is he will never replicate what he did for the Canucks in Calgary.

 

He came in as a young guy to a veteran core and became that Vet to the new young core. He was a true mentor. The respect he had in the locker room all the fans could see it because it literally could not be contained in the locker room and flooded out. It was sad to see that JB did not see how important a guy like that is to a team. I put Tanev right along side a guy like Linden

 

except tanev has no offensive talent or physicality great conparison  i totally see tanev as a defensive linden lol right notice the sarcasm

[IBatch]

15 hours ago, Petey_BOI said:

true story.

 

seattle could pick ovechkin, D.Hamilton.

 

there's lots of quality UFA's, but from my understanding they have 48 hour window to agree to a deal before the draft occurs.

True story.   Seattle won't waste a spot on either of them only to find them to go to whomever they want.   Why JB staggered his contracts to protect Edler this way. 

[IBatch]

15 hours ago, Arrow 1983 said:

he is 22 and never played an NHL game 

 

Green is willing to let young guys play Hoglander 

 

But Lind I guess Green does not like him, or Lind has not shown Green a reason to put him in the line up

OR maybe Lind is deliberately been hiding in the weeds like Rafferty.   I'm pretty sure management decided months ago that this is a year to get another good pick, and to protect prospects.    JB has done a good job of strategizing with the ED.   I highly doubt if it came down to protecting JV or Lind at this point that JVs getting it. 

[Ghostsof1915]

26 minutes ago, canuktravella said:

 ya then i looked at how tiny he was  i could be wrong   he was good in ncaa but is he gonna be the same in nhl doubtful. hes 21 5’11 not short but weighs 152  does he not eat  like get on the gym and steak and guinness diet i was 5’1 120 when i was 17 by 18 i was 6’1 155  by the time i was 21 i was 6’4 179    and i didnt have a fancy pro hockey diet   but i was in good shape biked 70km 2 times a week and played hockey 4 nights

I wish I had your genes, I would have loved a growth spurt like that. Then again your knees and joints much have been screaming at times. 

[canuktravella]

12 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

I wish I had your genes, I would have loved a growth spurt like that. Then again your knees and joints much have been screaming at times. 

 ya i was ultra lil til i was 17 then a foot in a yr i blew my knee iut in mens soccer in osoyoos because a week earlier me and my  buddy from chad  had competition in pe class who would score more. 1 buck a goal  so wed play hard d on each other  i went in for a slide tackle and our shins collided  really hard must have weakened my knee a bit cuz i ripped cartilage in half  and had surgery 2 weeks before  grad. Lots of peopke didn't recognize me after highschool because i was like no where the same size like im 6’4 245  now  haha so much better than 5’1 120 just wish i had been that size when i was 17 coulda dominated junior a  with that size o well  

[canuktravella]

Just now, canuktravella said:

 ya i was ultra lil til i was 17 then a foot in a yr i blew my knee iut in mens soccer in osoyoos because a week earlier me and my  buddy from chad  had competition in pe class who would score more. 1 buck a goal  so wed play hard d on each other  i went in for a slide tackle and our shins collided  really hard must have weakened my knee a bit cuz i ripped cartilage in half  and had surgery 2 weeks before  grad. Lots of peopke didn't recognize me after highschool because i was like no where the same size like im 6’4 245  now  haha so much better than 5’1 120 just wish i had been that size when i was 17 coulda dominated junior a  with that size o well  

gotta love irish  english scottish german swedish  genes im like euromix 

[wildcam]

Bowey 6'2, 210lbs, might shock some people..He skate well and right now would be #6 D man here in Vancouver..

Like the edge he plays with..

1. Hughes 2. Scmidt, 3. Myers, 4 Hamonic 5. Edler 6.Bowey  7. Juolevi, Rathbone Rafferty, Brisebois

Next 19 games will give management a good look at several propects and new players brought in over the last 3 weeks..

[RU SERIOUS]

4 minutes ago, wildcam said:

Bowey 6'2, 210lbs, might shock some people..He skate well and right now would be #6 D man here in Vancouver..

Like the edge he plays with..

1. Hughes 2. Scmidt, 3. Myers, 4 Hamonic 5. Edler 6.Bowey  7. Juolevi, Rathbone Rafferty, Brisebois

Next 19 games will give management a good look at several propects and new players brought in over the last 3 weeks..

Yes, I hope that the Mgmt allows some of the prospects to get on the ice and show their stuff for a change, especially that we are certainly not making the playoffs this year and might as well lose as much as possible to move up the draft pick chart.    That will at least make things entertaining, as there's nothing like watching the young guns bust their backs to earn a spot on a team.

[Gollumpus]

1 hour ago, Horvat is a Boss said:

 

Fast answers, on my out for lunch. Need fud.

 

1 hour ago, Horvat is a Boss said:

I think that you are overestimating the next contracts for most of those UFAs. Savard will probably be the most expensive one at the price/term you mentioned, but the others should get considerably less. The other three players on that list could be under 4M, which saves 2M+ against the cap with likely more flexibility in term/trade protection as well. Since the on ice change would likely be marginal, that's a pure win in my mind.

 

The "incentive to sign here" point could be made in every single offseason with every single player, yet players still choose to sign here. Why did Holtby choose us? Why did Hawryluk? Why did MacEwan, Roussel, Hamonic, Pearson (extension) want to sign here? Pearson could have signed a one year league minimum deal to join the Lightning, but chose not to. Dadanov signed in Ottawa, Hoffman took a 1 year deal, Hall chose Buffalo, etc. It's rare that a decision is made purely for competitive reasons and if Vancouver can present itself as a good fit (which it seems to have in the past, particularly for young players) then I'm not sure why it would randomly become a concern now. It's not like I listed one or two names and if we don't get them we're hooped, I listed 14+ names total of varying quality/price to choose from. 

 

For example, Montour in leaving Buffalo at the deadline said that things felt disorganized there. He felt he didn't have a clear role and there wasn't enough consistency in communicating what was expected from him. Vancouver in their pitch to him and his party could say that should he sign here, he would be the 2nd unit powerplay guy behind Hughes with the expectation of generating offense and moving the play forward from the back end. They would want him to play fast and aggressive, relying on his skating to push the pace. Moreover, his career was looking good in Anaheim but stagnated in Buffalo. Maybe a return to the west coast would be good for him and his family as well.  Montour could see this as an opportunity to play well in his defined role for 1-2 years with some good players in a hockey market and then hopefully set himself up for a bigger contract (with Vancouver or elsewhere) after proving he can perform. This would be similar to what Barrie did this offseason and is just one example of a potential pitch. 

 

Regarding the trade targets, Virtanen for Miller is a trade that Buffalo fans have generally been content with. I don't think that would deplete our assets. Mayfield would be a tougher grab, but like I said with Expansion they may be more willing to move him than normal. The Islanders already dumped Toews (who has been one of the best defensemen in the league) last year and they have Pulock and Dobson as RHD already. Again, all of those names were just ideas being thrown around. If we don't land the exact guy we want then there's no need to panic, that's how you end up overpaying and making foolish decisions. I'm sure that among the 14+ options I listed we can find 2 that work. 

1.) Perhaps I am overestimating, but I feel that being a bit "negative" (not my normal style) leads to happiness should things work out in the Canucks' favour.

 

2.) The incentive for a lot of the guys listed is that Benning overpaid them (ask around, it's a regular complaint  ).

 

In other cases, eg. Hamonic, he wanted someplace on the left side of Canada and that was not Calgary or (iirc) Edmonton. He was even prepared to take a pay cut in order to make things work. Will he be as willing to take a cheap deal for this year, and at only one year? Maybe, maybe not.

 

3.) While I'm not as onside with the anti-Baumgartner camp as some, players can make their own assessments as to what a team says will be the player's role and what might happen once he gets here. Putting on my Negative Nabob hat, if the Canucks aren't overpaying in some way, are they that attractive a destination, at least right now rather than in a few years, even with a clear understanding of roles?

 

4.) The Virtanen for Miller trade would be fine by me (even the Mayfield suggestion):

- assuming that Virtanen is still here to be moved (ie. not taken in the draft which could be a likely thing if he is left exposed, so this deal would have to happen before said draft).

- assuming Buffalo agrees to the deal. As I see it/understand it, the Sabres have Ristolainen and Miller as the guys who fit the trade rules. If they trade Miller then they would have to leave Ristolainen exposed, which I don't believe they want to do, so they would have to keep Miller for the draft or find another d-man to use who fits the exposure requirements. If they find that guy before the draft, then all is well.

- assuming the Canucks could take on the additional cap with Miller (an additional $1,325 million). 

 

Anyhoo, I suggest going out for a walk. It looks great out there.

 

                                                  regards,  G.

[khay]

I honestly don't know why JB "promised" Pearson that he will be protected.

 

I wouldn't waste a spot on Pearson, and use that spot to protect Lind. Seattle ain't going to pick Pearson anyways.

 

[HockeyHarry]

He’s a young Righthanded D man. So.....I’m not 100% convinced he’s was just picked up for the expansion draft.

if Bowey was a lefty then I would say yes to he was brought in for the expansion draft.

 

but maybe that’s Jimbo plan. A young righty is more attractive for Seattle to take. So all in all....I don’t know. It’s a wait and see.

Edited April 13, 2021 by HockeyHarry

[Noble 6]

24 minutes ago, Gollumpus said:

 

Fast answers, on my out for lunch. Need fud.

 

1.) Perhaps I am overestimating, but I feel that being a bit "negative" (not my normal style) leads to happiness should things work out in the Canucks' favour.

 

2.) The incentive for a lot of the guys listed is that Benning overpaid them (ask around, it's a regular complaint  ).

 

In other cases, eg. Hamonic, he wanted someplace on the left side of Canada and that was not Calgary or (iirc) Edmonton. He was even prepared to take a pay cut in order to make things work. Will he be as willing to take a cheap deal for this year, and at only one year? Maybe, maybe not.

 

3.) While I'm not as onside with the anti-Baumgartner camp as some, players can make their own assessments as to what a team says will be the player's role and what might happen once he gets here. Putting on my Negative Nabob hat, if the Canucks aren't overpaying in some way, are they that attractive a destination, at least right now rather than in a few years, even with a clear understanding of roles?

 

4.) The Virtanen for Miller trade would be fine by me (even the Mayfield suggestion):

- assuming that Virtanen is still here to be moved (ie. not taken in the draft which could be a likely thing if he is left exposed, so this deal would have to happen before said draft).

- assuming Buffalo agrees to the deal. As I see it/understand it, the Sabres have Ristolainen and Miller as the guys who fit the trade rules. If they trade Miller then they would have to leave Ristolainen exposed, which I don't believe they want to do, so they would have to keep Miller for the draft or find another d-man to use who fits the exposure requirements. If they find that guy before the draft, then all is well.

- assuming the Canucks could take on the additional cap with Miller (an additional $1,325 million). 

 

Anyhoo, I suggest going out for a walk. It looks great out there.

 

                                                  regards,  G.

 

Fair enough on expecting less to be pleasantly surprised. But if your estimates are too far off then you're not evaluating anything realistic. Budgeting Pearson in at 5M instead of 3M would do more harm than good because that extra 2M could be used somewhere else in the meantime. 

 

Benning has overpaid for UFAs. That is absolutely true. Beagle and Roussel reportedly could not get 4 years from any team other than the Canucks. But it is also true that players like MacEwan, Michaelis and Rafferty all chose to sign here for reasons other than money/term. Those players would have gotten the exact same contract anywhere else, but they chose Vancouver. Do you have any ideas why?

 

Regarding point 3, I'm not sure what I can say that I haven't already. I guess every player who doesn't sign in Vegas or Tampa Bay operates on some plane that can't be understood. 

[Bad_BOI_pete]

5 hours ago, Conscience said:

Eww gross to think that Pearson, Virt and Motte are in our top 7 forwards, that alone explains a lot.

actually virtanen doesn't make the list,

 

ep40

boeser

miller

horvat

hoglander

pearson

motte

 

 

virtanen and gaudette are our 2 worst performing forwards this year

[Bad_BOI_pete]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

True story.   Seattle won't waste a spot on either of them only to find them to go to whomever they want.   Why JB staggered his contracts to protect Edler this way. 

exactly seattle is likely only, going to have a list of 10 players or so who they will have time to talk with, edler probably doesn't make this list.

[xereau]

He's also a diamond in the rough. Remember him at the world juniors? The guy's been beat down in Chiraq, so I for one am glad to see what he brings to the table.

[Phil_314]

3 hours ago, stawns said:

Nevermind the steady progression over his career this far.  Once against n, let this season die as any kind of standard for performance

Okay, ignoring this season, what about last season's play-in's?