we need to develop players and/or players we have need to play better.

[IBatch]

On 7/7/2021 at 2:42 PM, Convincing John said:

This is going to piss some people off but the only player I’m convinced is “elite” is Thatcher Demko. We still need more time at the bottom with great draft picks while clearing out garbage contracts. Once all the turds are flushed down the toilet, we will have elite ELC talent ready to be infused with a veteran Horvat, EP, Hughes and demko. Making a run now is going to set us back another decade.

a lot of people here are excited to make the playoffs in a weak Pacific but I’m not really interested in that. I have the patience to wait for a dynasty. 

St. Louis won.   Not really elite level talent on that team if your talking Kucherov, Crosby, Ovi level stuff.   And a lot of teams in the final four match up nicely with them.    TB ... doubt they win a third cup but it's possible.   Next season they won't have nearly the talent they did this year, and talent for sure includes how your energy line stacks up, bottom pairing etc.   

 

As for the OP.   And you too.  Talking about patience.   The Sedins were 30 when they peaked, Naslund 27 when he started his peak.  Talking about development, there is also a development curve for young stars and you can bet that Horvat (vs O'Reilly one of the best in the business he matched him plus plus) BB (this year first half MVP, he's getting better with age), EP (Mr Post this season...) and QHs (he's to me a big question mark - defense includes, well defense) will all get better or for Horvat be clutch when it matters the most.     This is a cap world, nobody wants a team like TO.   Well except TO.   Top level talent gets paid like that .... Dubas ruined their chances really overpaying them.     

 

CHI - they won three cups, flat cap ruined their chances of ever winning another.   Because Toews and Kane got paid.   Ovi in his 13th season ... when they won, on his teams second core well into it actually.   Hedman and Stamkos (yes he only played one game in the bubble but it's relevant) was it ten seasons?    Point is the Canucks best player(s)  is 21-22 .... you both better have a ton of more patience then you say you need or your in for a lot of heartache.   

[MattJVD]

Well OP isn't wrong. We do need some more mid-round 'hits'. If Lockwood and Rathbone make the team next year, I think we'll be looking pretty good.

 

Good on mid round hits that is, not the whole composition of the roster.

Edited July 9, 2021 by MattJVD

[Alflives]

@grouse747

Tampa’s 6 top D in the playoffs were all acquired by trade, except Hedman.  

[kanucks25]

Yes, we need to draft better outside the top of the draft.

 

We've been supplementing our top players/picks with players from other teams via trade or free agency which usually means older and less cost-controlled depth.

 

It's just not the way you compose a team if your goal is quality depth (which it is for all teams).

[The Lock]

In other news, countries need to stop fighting with each other, global warming needs to stop happening, and Elvis needs to stop being dead.

 

Like okay then....

[komodo0921]

On 7/7/2021 at 11:01 AM, grouse747 said:

i've been looking at the final 8 NHL playoff rosters. so many key players who weren't drafted highly. many were developed by current team. some by a previous team.......... so much talk on this forum seems to revolve around getting more elite talent (which would be nice, and teams should always strive for this) as opposed to developing more talent ourselves.,

 

we seem to have a key core of six players. and i think most teams would be ecstatic to have that core 6 players.

 

excepting the goalie, all 5 of our core players were drafted in the first round. 3 in the top 10 picks.

 

we need to develop NHL calibre players........... and we need the players we have to play much better...... on both these criteria, i think the team/organization culture is really key. and i think our organizational/team culture is quite weak.

 

thanks in advance for any comments  ..... somewhat of a reversal for me as i've said before that elite talent is the ultimate differentiator between teams. but that is partially because i thought/think developing decent NHL 3rd and 4th liners shouldn't be that difficult. and partially i was wrong, i think.

The Vancouver Canucks have a lot of needs but, yes, the focus should still be draft and develop.

JB has had great success with top ten picks coming directly into the NHL but, I am not convinced that, at least, one of them is what we need.

If anything has been proven time and time again, it's that size does matter when it comes to winning championships due to the increased physical nature that comes with playoff hockey. Yes, there have been a few smaller players that have persevered in the past and provided key moments in winning a championship ( ie. Rocket Richard, Theo Fleury, Marty St. Louis) but, they are far and few between. 

I fear that, although JB has amassed some good talent, he's focused too much on skill and speed and not enough on the size and physicality that wins.

On the positive side, I see two smaller players on our team that possess the attributes needed for them to have success on the big stage.

Nils Hoglander- What can be said about this kids will and determination? 

He pushes through body checks like he's 6'4, He goes into scrums and, more often then not, comes out with the puck, he plays with an edge that most smaller players avoid, he scores, makes big plays that make a difference and small plays with big outcomes. I am really excited to see what he brings in a full season.

Jack Rathbone- Although it was a short showcase, JR showed his abilities at both ends of the ice. He, like Hoglander is not afraid of the physical side of the game and is willing to engage the opposition in the defensive zone. He provided offence in his 8 games of play and showed the ability to make smart decisions with the puck. Like Hoglander, I am very excited to see him in a full season.

Quinn Hughes- Now for my, highly critical and, unpopular take on our premiere defender. 

QH came as advertised. Highly skilled with the puck. Provides a blueline offensive threat every time he's on the ice and can bring fans to their feet. All that's great but, unfortunately, all this comes at a price with him. He's prone to bad decision making when pinching to keep plays alive, he's not overly physical, and he doesn't defend with the same enthusiasm that he has when in the offensive zone. For me, this is a great concern. I've always maintained that a defensemen's primary concern should always be on the defensive side of the red line. Take opportunities when presented but never at the expense of defensive responsibilities. QH, imo, spends too much time playing like a fourth forward and must pay more attention to his defensive play. Yes, this may take away from his offensive numbers but it would, imo, make him a better blueliner. I would rather have a 40 pnt Quinn Hughes with great defensive awareness then a 60 pnt Quinn Hughes that gives up just as pnts as he gets. Of all the defenders on the ice last season, I don't recall seeing anyone hanging his head more as opponents celebrated goals then him.

This does not, however, mean all is doom and gloom with Mr. Hughes. Ne has made it clear that he's aware of his defensive deficiencies and the need for him to make the needed adjustments to fully round out his game and become reliable in front of his goalie. I like his attitude and maturity in admitting this and really want to see him succeed in his quest to become a complete player.

Having three smaller players on the team, imo, creates a necessity to, now, add size, grit and, a lot of bad attitude to to team that showed way too much complacency last season. I am really hoping Podkolzin brings the same sandpaper game he showed in Russia. We need a guy like Gadjovich to develop into an everyday NHLer. My wishlist for this draft include players like McTavish, Pastujov, Mailloux, and Scmidt, specifically because they play a gritty, mean-spirited game that we need to fill out our roster. 

I am hoping that JB stays away from the ufa market this year and concentrate more on adding young depth players and prospects. We have our young superstars; now it's time to build around them and provide the support that will allow them to fully make use of their skills.

 

 

[Alflives]

Just now, komodo0921 said:

The Vancouver Canucks have a lot of needs but, yes, the focus should still be draft and develop.

JB has had great success with top ten picks coming directly into the NHL but, I am not convinced that, at least, one of them is what we need.

If anything has been proven time and time again, it's that size does matter when it comes to winning championships due to the increased physical nature that comes with playoff hockey. Yes, there have been a few smaller players that have persevered in the past and provided key moments in winning a championship ( ie. Rocket Richard, Theo Fleury, Marty St. Louis) but, they are far and few between. 

I fear that, although JB has amassed some good talent, he's focused too much on skill and speed and not enough on the size and physicality that wins.

On the positive side, I see two smaller players on our team that possess the attributes needed for them to have success on the big stage.

Nils Hoglander- What can be said about this kids will and determination? 

He pushes through body checks like he's 6'4, He goes into scrums and, more often then not, comes out with the puck, he plays with an edge that most smaller players avoid, he scores, makes big plays that make a difference and small plays with big outcomes. I am really excited to see what he brings in a full season.

Jack Rathbone- Although it was a short showcase, JR showed his abilities at both ends of the ice. He, like Hoglander is not afraid of the physical side of the game and is willing to engage the opposition in the defensive zone. He provided offence in his 8 games of play and showed the ability to make smart decisions with the puck. Like Hoglander, I am very excited to see him in a full season.

Quinn Hughes- Now for my, highly critical and, unpopular take on our premiere defender. 

QH came as advertised. Highly skilled with the puck. Provides a blueline offensive threat every time he's on the ice and can bring fans to their feet. All that's great but, unfortunately, all this comes at a price with him. He's prone to bad decision making when pinching to keep plays alive, he's not overly physical, and he doesn't defend with the same enthusiasm that he has when in the offensive zone. For me, this is a great concern. I've always maintained that a defensemen's primary concern should always be on the defensive side of the red line. Take opportunities when presented but never at the expense of defensive responsibilities. QH, imo, spends too much time playing like a fourth forward and must pay more attention to his defensive play. Yes, this may take away from his offensive numbers but it would, imo, make him a better blueliner. I would rather have a 40 pnt Quinn Hughes with great defensive awareness then a 60 pnt Quinn Hughes that gives up just as pnts as he gets. Of all the defenders on the ice last season, I don't recall seeing anyone hanging his head more as opponents celebrated goals then him.

This does not, however, mean all is doom and gloom with Mr. Hughes. Ne has made it clear that he's aware of his defensive deficiencies and the need for him to make the needed adjustments to fully round out his game and become reliable in front of his goalie. I like his attitude and maturity in admitting this and really want to see him succeed in his quest to become a complete player.

Having three smaller players on the team, imo, creates a necessity to, now, add size, grit and, a lot of bad attitude to to team that showed way too much complacency last season. I am really hoping Podkolzin brings the same sandpaper game he showed in Russia. We need a guy like Gadjovich to develop into an everyday NHLer. My wishlist for this draft include players like McTavish, Pastujov, Mailloux, and Scmidt, specifically because they play a gritty, mean-spirited game that we need to fill out our roster. 

I am hoping that JB stays away from the ufa market this year and concentrate more on adding young depth players and prospects. We have our young superstars; now it's time to build around them and provide the support that will allow them to fully make use of their skills.

 

 

You do realize Tampa just won two Cups with some small forwards who were really important to winning, right?  

Braden Point, Yanni Gourde, and Nikita Kucherov or example.  

[komodo0921]

Just now, Alflives said:

You do realize Tampa just won two Cups with some small forwards who were really important to winning, right?  

Braden Point, Yanni Gourde, and Nikita Kucherov or example.  

I am aware. 

You do realize that final four teams were four of the biggest teams in the league.

That's not a coincidence.

I believe that, until we start addressing the lack of aggression in our lineup, we will be a good regular season team but will be a frustrating team to watch in the playoffs and will not win a cup with the current core.

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, komodo0921 said:

I am aware. 

You do realize that final four teams were four of the biggest teams in the league.

That's not a coincidence.

I believe that, until we start addressing the lack of aggression in our lineup, we will be a good regular season team but will be a frustrating team to watch in the playoffs and will not win a cup with the current core.

Sure, all things being equal, bigger is better.  But not all things are equal in many cases.  Little guys need to be tough as hell, and have elite skill.  Big guys need to be able to play the game.  The Loser Leafs had four top d at or over 220 pounds.  Morgan Reilly is 220.  

Big is not the only part of the recipe to success.  Skill, and compete are more important.  

[lmm]

On 7/7/2021 at 11:26 AM, King Heffy said:

Gadjovich, Lind, MacEwen, Hoglander, Motte.

Bob + Ted + Carol + Alice + Motte

[Wayne Glensky]

On 7/7/2021 at 11:26 AM, King Heffy said:

Gadjovich, Lind, MacEwen, Hoglander, Motte.

Kind and Gajovich are questionable. 

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, Alflives said:

Sure, all things being equal, bigger is better.  But not all things are equal in many cases.  Little guys need to be tough as hell, and have elite skill.  Big guys need to be able to play the game.  The Loser Leafs had four top d at or over 220 pounds.  Morgan Reilly is 220.  

Big is not the only part of the recipe to success.  Skill, and compete are more important.  

There is nothing worse then a team of 6'2-6"4 pussycats.   Not really inspiring is it.     There are so many guys 190lbs 5'11-6'0 that played 6'5" 250lbs that it would take hours to bother writing it up.

 

Chelios, Domi, Wendel Clarke...Once you get to close to six feet and 200lbs it really does come down to the fight in the dog - not the size.   As long as we have players that punch above their weight  class we will be fine. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by IBatch

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, komodo0921 said:

The Vancouver Canucks have a lot of needs but, yes, the focus should still be draft and develop.

JB has had great success with top ten picks coming directly into the NHL but, I am not convinced that, at least, one of them is what we need.

If anything has been proven time and time again, it's that size does matter when it comes to winning championships due to the increased physical nature that comes with playoff hockey. Yes, there have been a few smaller players that have persevered in the past and provided key moments in winning a championship ( ie. Rocket Richard, Theo Fleury, Marty St. Louis) but, they are far and few between. 

I fear that, although JB has amassed some good talent, he's focused too much on skill and speed and not enough on the size and physicality that wins.

On the positive side, I see two smaller players on our team that possess the attributes needed for them to have success on the big stage.

Nils Hoglander- What can be said about this kids will and determination? 

He pushes through body checks like he's 6'4, He goes into scrums and, more often then not, comes out with the puck, he plays with an edge that most smaller players avoid, he scores, makes big plays that make a difference and small plays with big outcomes. I am really excited to see what he brings in a full season.

Jack Rathbone- Although it was a short showcase, JR showed his abilities at both ends of the ice. He, like Hoglander is not afraid of the physical side of the game and is willing to engage the opposition in the defensive zone. He provided offence in his 8 games of play and showed the ability to make smart decisions with the puck. Like Hoglander, I am very excited to see him in a full season.

Quinn Hughes- Now for my, highly critical and, unpopular take on our premiere defender. 

QH came as advertised. Highly skilled with the puck. Provides a blueline offensive threat every time he's on the ice and can bring fans to their feet. All that's great but, unfortunately, all this comes at a price with him. He's prone to bad decision making when pinching to keep plays alive, he's not overly physical, and he doesn't defend with the same enthusiasm that he has when in the offensive zone. For me, this is a great concern. I've always maintained that a defensemen's primary concern should always be on the defensive side of the red line. Take opportunities when presented but never at the expense of defensive responsibilities. QH, imo, spends too much time playing like a fourth forward and must pay more attention to his defensive play. Yes, this may take away from his offensive numbers but it would, imo, make him a better blueliner. I would rather have a 40 pnt Quinn Hughes with great defensive awareness then a 60 pnt Quinn Hughes that gives up just as pnts as he gets. Of all the defenders on the ice last season, I don't recall seeing anyone hanging his head more as opponents celebrated goals then him.

This does not, however, mean all is doom and gloom with Mr. Hughes. Ne has made it clear that he's aware of his defensive deficiencies and the need for him to make the needed adjustments to fully round out his game and become reliable in front of his goalie. I like his attitude and maturity in admitting this and really want to see him succeed in his quest to become a complete player.

Having three smaller players on the team, imo, creates a necessity to, now, add size, grit and, a lot of bad attitude to to team that showed way too much complacency last season. I am really hoping Podkolzin brings the same sandpaper game he showed in Russia. We need a guy like Gadjovich to develop into an everyday NHLer. My wishlist for this draft include players like McTavish, Pastujov, Mailloux, and Scmidt, specifically because they play a gritty, mean-spirited game that we need to fill out our roster. 

I am hoping that JB stays away from the ufa market this year and concentrate more on adding young depth players and prospects. We have our young superstars; now it's time to build around them and provide the support that will allow them to fully make use of their skills.

 

 

My take is quite a bit different on QHs.   I think he's not as involved in the offensive zone as he should be - most of the time he gains entry and right away makes a tight play in the blue line, quite often he has a clear lane to the net or behind the net for the trailer.   Wish he had more Niedemayer, Coffey or Zubov in him.   To me Myers rushes in more effectively, maybe it's just maturation.  On the D side of things.   Count it out.   9/10 times ( i actually started to make a record of this), when he gets to the puck first it's out of the zone before you know it.    The other time it's ugly almost always.   When he doesn't get to the puck first, which he almost always leaves himself open to do (which he didn't as per the first part, feel we'd score a lot more often) it's not so terrible either it's just not very good either.     Needs his partner to bail him out too often which is understandable.    For me i actually want to see him behind the net and infront of the net (other side of the ice) way way way more often.   He'd be so much more effective.   Like to see him make a lot more rush plays and use his skating.   His center could hang back.   

 

QHs needs absolute free reign to go in every time.   He's most effective in the other zone so why not just let him do it all the time.    If the rest of the team could feed off this his plus minus would go way way way up.   And it's exciting to watch.   Hate it when i see a clear lane to the net and anyone stops short and passes.    QHs should never do that and practice scoring in tight. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by IBatch

[Johnny Torts]

[Crabcakes]

3 hours ago, lmm said:

Bob + Ted + Carol + Alice + Motte

Dating yourself old timer

[Crabcakes]

4 hours ago, Alflives said:

Sure, all things being equal, bigger is better.  But not all things are equal in many cases.  Little guys need to be tough as hell, and have elite skill.  Big guys need to be able to play the game.  The Loser Leafs had four top d at or over 220 pounds.  Morgan Reilly is 220.  

Big is not the only part of the recipe to success.  Skill, and compete are more important.  

Got that right sunshine.  Who wouldn't want Brendan Gallagher on their team?  5-9 185

[Ghostsof1915]

4 hours ago, lmm said:

Bob + Ted + Carol + Alice + Motte

Kinky.

[lmm]

4 hours ago, Crabcakes said:

Dating yourself old timer

no, I'm dating Ted

[Me_]

On 7/7/2021 at 2:01 PM, grouse747 said:

i've been looking at the final 8 NHL playoff rosters. so many key players who weren't drafted highly. many were developed by current team. some by a previous team.......... so much talk on this forum seems to revolve around getting more elite talent (which would be nice, and teams should always strive for this) as opposed to developing more talent ourselves.,

 

we seem to have a key core of six players. and i think most teams would be ecstatic to have that core 6 players.

 

excepting the goalie, all 5 of our core players were drafted in the first round. 3 in the top 10 picks.

 

we need to develop NHL calibre players........... and we need the players we have to play much better...... on both these criteria, i think the team/organization culture is really key. and i think our organizational/team culture is quite weak.

 

thanks in advance for any comments  ..... somewhat of a reversal for me as i've said before that elite talent is the ultimate differentiator between teams. but that is partially because i thought/think developing decent NHL 3rd and 4th liners shouldn't be that difficult. and partially i was wrong, i think.

The profound depth of this post in thinking matter, is nothing short of spectacular.

[lmm]

3 hours ago, Crabcakes said:

Got that right sunshine.  Who wouldn't want Brendan Gallagher on their team?  5-9 185

2 goals and 6 points in 22 playoff games

the finals might have been a little closer had Gallagher put some bisquits in some baskets

But looking at Montreal scoring against Tampa

Suzuki, Anderson and Caufield put up multiple points

That is one average sized , one large and one small player

or was it just one line

Smurfs Gallagher and Byron got shut out

Agerage Toffoli  got shut out 

bug but old Perry and Staal got shut out