(Discussion) Did the Canucks ruin Jake Virtanen's development by gifting him a spot on the team?

[JeremyCuddles]

inb4 lock?

[mpt]

25 minutes ago, Devron44 said:

Except he is bigger and faster then a lot of NHL players. He just lacked drive and determination 

He lacked IQ 

[Devron]

Just now, mpt said:

He lacked IQ 

Not just that but lack of hockey IQ was a big one yes 

[Phil_314]

I'd say maybe, in that he could very well have become entitled as a result.  Wouldn't be a first and wouldn't be the last to though, so I wouldn't hold it against him, some people just mature later than others.

[Roger Neilsons Towel]

[-AJ-]

No, but I can't imagine it helped. He wasn't ready, both on and off the ice to be an NHL pro.

 

That said, I don't think the primary conditions that led to his downfall were spawned in that moment, but far earlier in his life, no doubt. It was probably just a missed opportunity to teach a young man some strong values.

[Patel Bure]

Nope. 
 

The only person that ruined Jake was Jake.  He was given every single possible opportunity to succeed and was developed in the correct manner but he simply wasn’t committed to his craft. 
 

As the only saying goes, “You can take a horse to the well, but you can’t make him dink.”

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, stawns said:

they ruined his development by always giving the stick and never giving the carrot.  He improved every year, despite being given unfavourable icetime and starts.  He never complained, he just went out and did what they asked him to do and was never, ever rewarded.  I like Green, but he ruined what could have been a dominant player

Wasn't Willie D his coach for his first 2 years in the NHL?  Wasn't Willie D the one who sent him down to Utica in 2016 and Jake played 65 games in the AHL and scored 9 goals?  It doesn't look like he was much developed when Green got him in 2017 after 2 years of playing pro hockey.

 

At the end of the day Jake wasn't a very good 200' player.  And he wasn't an elite goal scorer where you could tolerate his lack of defensive acumen.  Boeser was in a similar situation.  He was put on the 3rd line often by Green and worked hard to improve his 200' game.  It showed last year as he put it all together and arguably had his best season as a Canuck.

 

Jake's problems didn't start with the Canucks.  They started much earlier than that.  Most likely in his teenage years as he was growing up.  Who knows what happened to him during that time.  Bad friends is probably the start.  Either way it looks like his NHL career is probably over.  And he may have much more to worry about than just where he is going to be playing hockey next year.

[NHL97OneTimer]

Many young players are mismanaged and don't hit their potential.  When they show up in great shape, work hard on the ice, do what they're asked to do and still fail....that's on the coaches.  But that's not Jake.  He did the opposite showing up out of shape, not committing himself consistently on the ice and not following the lead of the many professional players around him.  Nope, this one's most definitely on Jake.

[Smashian Kassian]

I've argued in the past they didn't.

 

Jake was physically too advanced for the WHL. It was such an advantage he could just get by on his physical attributes. But he wasn't AHL eligible - which would've been the best.

 

My thought was playing pro, even spot duty in the NHL, would force him to develop his overall game. But really being in the NHL probably just went to his head.

 

It's definitely not to blame, but maybe sending him back would've been better.

 

I think Jake just took his career/status for granted.

[bigbadcanucks]

1 hour ago, Devron44 said:

Exactly 

 

And guess who got the so called “Virtanen treatment” before the bubble. Brock Boeser playing 3rd line duty. 
 

Who played through it, learnt a few things. Brock Boeser.

 

Who was our best all around player last year. Brock Boeser. 
 

To further your point @Devron44, Brock was kept out of the lineup for the first couple of games of his rookie season...played in, I believe the 3rd game and has not looked back.  Jake, on the other hand...well, we know how that all turned out.

[knucklehead91]

1 hour ago, mpt said:

No Benning was desperate on drafting a BC boy on his first draft to appease the fans.  He was a bigger faster stronger player in the WHL and that doesn’t translate to the nhl

 

Benning came to Vancouver May 21st 2014 which was 5 weeks prior to the draft.
Benning made the selection, but Eric Crawford was the head of the scouting department and department of player personnel and was here from 2008-2015 in which our drafting was horrendous. Benning addressed that issue.

 

1 hour ago, Devron44 said:

Not a chance. Kid had 9 lives. Gifted top 6 minutes in a-lot of games. Hell they had him on the first line to start the year 

He definitely wasnt gifted anything, a few shifts is not being gifted a season long opportunity and playing less than 13mins a game isnt going to get you anywhere, especially when you dont see PP time and your zone starts are 50/50. Virtanen was far from being gifted anything.

 

58 minutes ago, Devron44 said:

If you can’t be an effective player on the third of 4th line then why? So Many chances, so many! Throw a couple hits Jake. Drive the net, you can fly. Create some energy for your team. Nothing. He would do that one game and disappear for 10. Even playing 12 minutes a night.

 

This is a Jake problem, always was.

 

He had 9 goals in 65 AHL games 

So Virtanen was actually extremely effective on the 3rd and 4th line. He had the highest on ice sv% and his PDO was over 100. He also threw more hits than most players on the team and was 3rd in hits this season with 83. He is usually in the top 5 for hits in each season. Hell he had 1 more hit than Dorsett in 2015-16 with 16 less games played. So dont think Virtanen wasnt using his body, he used it as much as a 4th line player.

Yes I agree he was frustrating to watch at times when you know how fast and strong he is and wont just drive the f***ing net, but that right there is a confidence issue and perhaps a developmental issue, being so used to man handling kids in junior to dealing with men who arent pushed around lightly, he wasnt ready for that and its a real shocker when kids make the jump to the NHL, the way they thrived in junior is no longer an option, or you just gotta keep the confidence high and never stop doubting yourself when you want to drive the net. 
 

He had the package that is a huge gamble to take in a draft, but if it works out, its a pretty hard to stop issue for other teams. But with power forwards its about their confidence, thats what takes them so long to blossom is building that confidence now that they are in the big leagues, they gotta bulldoze their way through grown a$$ men. The Shea Webers and Chara’s of the league, big, strong, scary f***ing dudes.

 

its hard to be consistent when you play 11-12 mins a night and you see almost no PP time and you split your zone time between each end evenly.

1 hour ago, Brad Marchand said:

It's funny that you consistently pick on Boeser for not being a complete forward but you're willing to give Virtanen a free pass because he 'scores goals'.

 

There's a reason Boeser, Hoglander, and Pettersson haven't received the same treatment Virtanen did from Green. There's a lot more to being a useful top 6 forward than just scoring goals. Among other things, he can't cycle, has limited vision and awareness and doesn't win puck battles. When Virtanen doesn't have the puck, he might as well not be on the ice at all.

Boeser and Pettersson were slotted into the top 6 instantly and for good reason, we didnt have any real options and they had the most skill, they cant play bottom 6 roles, they need top 6 minutes and utilization to be effective players. If they were put in the bottom 6 and given the “Green treatment” they wouldnt cut it in the NHL. Virtanen, because of his size, speed and strength can actually be utilized in the bottom 6 and be sent to the doghouse if he needs a kick in the arse.

 

Imho Hoglander is the only player to have actually “earned” a top 6 spot. Not saying Boeser or Petey didnt earn it, but they didnt have to fight anyone for it. The team had nearly zero talent in the top 6 and the Sedins retired when Petey came in. Hoglander actually pushed people out of the way and I know that Boeser and Petey would have done the same if they had to compete with a few other guys.

 

Jake Virtanen actually does win puck battles, moreso than a lot of guys on the team, he has quite a few takeaways and thats with less icetime than everyone else in the top 6, blocks shots and throws the body. He isnt actually “useless” hes just a waste of talent.
 

 

And when it comes to Virtanen being without the puck, he does a hell of a lot more than you give him credit for. So if you average out hits, blocks, takeaways, giveaways for an 82game season, on ice sv%, PDO career average and zone start avg for vancouver (because Pearson and Miller played elsewhere)

 

Virtanen 82game season average:

hits: 166

blocks: 34

Takeaways: 45

giveaways: 29

PDO: 100.2 (career avg)

oiSV%: .925 (career avg)

ozone starts: 49.7% (career avg)

dzone starts: 50.3% (career avg)
corsi: 50.3 (career avg)

 

Boeser

hits: 35

blocks: 26

takeaways: 33

give aways: 38

PDO: 100.9

oiSV%:  .891

ozone starts: 70%
dzone starts: 30%

corsi: 58.1

Pettersson

Hits: 58

Blocks: 51

takeaways: 44

giveaways: 49
PDO: 102.3

oiSV%: .897

ozone starts: 73.7%
dzone starts: 26.7%
corsi: 60.5

 

Horvat

Hits: 68

Blocks: 55

takeaways: 29

giveaways: 27

PDO: 99.9

oiSV%: .898

ozone starts: 47.1%
dzone starts: 52.9%
corsi: 50.6

 

Miller

hits: 132

blocks: 38

takeaways: 44

giveaways: 53

PDO: 101.7

oiSV%: .905

ozone starts: 59.8%
dzone starts: 40.2%
corsi: 56.1% (avg in van)
 

Pearson

hits: 116

blocks: 38

takeaways: 29

giveaways: 29

PDO: 100.3

oiSV%: .911

ozone starts: 47.2% (avg in van)
dzone starts: 52.8% (avg in van)

Corsi: 49.1 (avg in van)
 

Hoglander

Hits: 38

Blocks: 28

takeaways: 62

give aways: 29

PDO: 98.9

oiSV% .903

ozone starts: 53.7%
dzone starts: 46.3%
corsi: 53.0

 

Virtanen played 38 games this season and was on the ice for a total of 21 goals… 11 for and 10 against.

 

 

The biggest frustration is that we all can see the potential Virtanen possesses to be a game changer, but unfortunately he just cant figure it out and its just a massive waste of potential that kills us. Its too bad this off ice stuff has further derailed his life/career. Maybe without the extra distractions he could have eventually figured it out. We wanted a top 6 power forward overpowering guys on the ice… instead we got a decent bottom 6 guy who ended up overpowering women.

 

Time to move on and just let it go, whats done is done and we have Podkolzin to look forward to, as well as Garland, OEL and Dickinson 

 

 

 

[bigbadcanucks]

47 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Wasn't Willie D his coach for his first 2 years in the NHL?  Wasn't Willie D the one who sent him down to Utica in 2016 and Jake played 65 games in the AHL and scored 9 goals?  It doesn't look like he was much developed when Green got him in 2017 after 2 years of playing pro hockey.

 

At the end of the day Jake wasn't a very good 200' player.  And he wasn't an elite goal scorer where you could tolerate his lack of defensive acumen.  Boeser was in a similar situation.  He was put on the 3rd line often by Green and worked hard to improve his 200' game.  It showed last year as he put it all together and arguably had his best season as a Canuck.

 

Jake's problems didn't start with the Canucks.  They started much earlier than that.  Most likely in his teenage years as he was growing up.  Who knows what happened to him during that time.  Bad friends is probably the start.  Either way it looks like his NHL career is probably over.  And he may have much more to worry about than just where he is going to be playing hockey next year.

 

I think there's a lot of truth to your statement @Elias Pettersson.  I know a young man who played with/against Jake Virtanen and he tells me Jake was a man-child who dominated everyone from minor pee-wee all the way to bantam because he was physically more mature than everyone else.  So, it's obvious Jake didn't really develop his toolbox like he should have because he was able to impose his physical might on others before he became a professional.

 

As well, I'm told Jake was actually a pretty good/nice kid, from a good family.  Just not very motivated/driven to get better at hockey because everything came so easy for him, which caught up to him when he hit the NHL/pros. 

 

Lastly, I wonder how much his bad shoulder in his final year in junior hockey affected him...and I wonder if it still gives him trouble today.  Not saying this to make excuses for him because I'm glad he's out.  Just wondering.

[Devron]

6 minutes ago, knucklehead91 said:

He definitely wasnt gifted anything, a few shifts is not being gifted a season long opportunity and playing less than 13mins a game isnt going to get you anywhere, especially when you dont see PP time and your zone starts are 50/50. Virtanen was far from being gifted anything.

He wasn’t just gifted a few shifts. There were many games he played top 6 minutes.
 

Not coaching issue and you proved it with your post. Well thought-out, unbiased (unlike my posts - the kid pissed me off) and I have to say you are right on a lot of things a provided evidence.

 

Players like Hoglander came to camp ready to go. That’s why he was “gifted” a top six spot.

Every year Virtanen was one of the worst conditioned players on the team. Not fat just not ready to go. Start time for him was when camp started. He never gave himself an opportunity from the get go. I bet there were seasons Green wanted to cut him.

 

What proves this thread wrong are the analytics you posted. He did improve under Green in a lot of areas but he never seized the opportunity when given and yes I disagree he had opportunities, many of them. It’s a mixture of lack of willingness and lack of offensive awareness to go along with his immaturity.

[Ghostsof1915]

Jake had tons of chances to make himself into a solid NHL'er. 

As other's have said. He has the tools, but he doesn't know how to use the tools. 

He has issues with consistency as well.

 

He had lots of team-mates or coaches he could have turned to, to help him improve. 

 

[Dumb Nuck]

3 hours ago, Devron44 said:

No Jake Virtanen ruined Jake Virtanen. End of story 

I manage and develop people for a living and when someone fails I’m always sad and wonder if there was anything different I could have done, the blame always lies with both the teacher and the student, just to varying degrees. When I answer to my superiors as to why someone didn’t work out I never blame them but rather look for how I can be better, my goal is for everyone I develop to be a rock star.

[Ghostsof1915]

To paraphrase Jim Garner in Grand Prix.

 

"Jake put Jake where he is..." 

[Fan since 82]

3 hours ago, mpt said:

No Benning was desperate on drafting a BC boy on his first draft to appease the fans.  He was a bigger faster stronger player in the WHL and that doesn’t translate to the nhl

Benning or Aqualini?

[lmm]

47 minutes ago, knucklehead91 said:

 

Benning came to Vancouver May 21st 2014 which was 5 weeks prior to the draft.
Benning made the selection, but Eric Crawford was the head of the scouting department and department of player personnel and was here from 2008-2015 in which our drafting was horrendous. Benning addressed that issue.

 

He definitely wasnt gifted anything, a few shifts is not being gifted a season long opportunity and playing less than 13mins a game isnt going to get you anywhere, especially when you dont see PP time and your zone starts are 50/50. Virtanen was far from being gifted anything.

 

So Virtanen was actually extremely effective on the 3rd and 4th line. He had the highest on ice sv% and his PDO was over 100. He also threw more hits than most players on the team and was 3rd in hits this season with 83. He is usually in the top 5 for hits in each season. Hell he had 1 more hit than Dorsett in 2015-16 with 16 less games played. So dont think Virtanen wasnt using his body, he used it as much as a 4th line player.

Yes I agree he was frustrating to watch at times when you know how fast and strong he is and wont just drive the f***ing net, but that right there is a confidence issue and perhaps a developmental issue, being so used to man handling kids in junior to dealing with men who arent pushed around lightly, he wasnt ready for that and its a real shocker when kids make the jump to the NHL, the way they thrived in junior is no longer an option, or you just gotta keep the confidence high and never stop doubting yourself when you want to drive the net. 
 

He had the package that is a huge gamble to take in a draft, but if it works out, its a pretty hard to stop issue for other teams. But with power forwards its about their confidence, thats what takes them so long to blossom is building that confidence now that they are in the big leagues, they gotta bulldoze their way through grown a$$ men. The Shea Webers and Chara’s of the league, big, strong, scary f***ing dudes.

 

its hard to be consistent when you play 11-12 mins a night and you see almost no PP time and you split your zone time between each end evenly.

Boeser and Pettersson were slotted into the top 6 instantly and for good reason, we didnt have any real options and they had the most skill, they cant play bottom 6 roles, they need top 6 minutes and utilization to be effective players. If they were put in the bottom 6 and given the “Green treatment” they wouldnt cut it in the NHL. Virtanen, because of his size, speed and strength can actually be utilized in the bottom 6 and be sent to the doghouse if he needs a kick in the arse.

 

Imho Hoglander is the only player to have actually “earned” a top 6 spot. Not saying Boeser or Petey didnt earn it, but they didnt have to fight anyone for it. The team had nearly zero talent in the top 6 and the Sedins retired when Petey came in. Hoglander actually pushed people out of the way and I know that Boeser and Petey would have done the same if they had to compete with a few other guys.

 

Jake Virtanen actually does win puck battles, moreso than a lot of guys on the team, he has quite a few takeaways and thats with less icetime than everyone else in the top 6, blocks shots and throws the body. He isnt actually “useless” hes just a waste of talent.
 

 

And when it comes to Virtanen being without the puck, he does a hell of a lot more than you give him credit for. So if you average out hits, blocks, takeaways, giveaways for an 82game season, on ice sv%, PDO career average and zone start avg for vancouver (because Pearson and Miller played elsewhere)

 

Virtanen 82game season average:

hits: 166

blocks: 34

Takeaways: 45

giveaways: 29

PDO: 100.2 (career avg)

oiSV%: .925 (career avg)

ozone starts: 49.7% (career avg)

dzone starts: 50.3% (career avg)
corsi: 50.3 (career avg)

 

Boeser

hits: 35

blocks: 26

takeaways: 33

give aways: 38

PDO: 100.9

oiSV%:  .891

ozone starts: 70%
dzone starts: 30%

corsi: 58.1

Pettersson

Hits: 58

Blocks: 51

takeaways: 44

giveaways: 49
PDO: 102.3

oiSV%: .897

ozone starts: 73.7%
dzone starts: 26.7%
corsi: 60.5

 

Horvat

Hits: 68

Blocks: 55

takeaways: 29

giveaways: 27

PDO: 99.9

oiSV%: .898

ozone starts: 47.1%
dzone starts: 52.9%
corsi: 50.6

 

Miller

hits: 132

blocks: 38

takeaways: 44

giveaways: 53

PDO: 101.7

oiSV%: .905

ozone starts: 59.8%
dzone starts: 40.2%
corsi: 56.1% (avg in van)
 

Pearson

hits: 116

blocks: 38

takeaways: 29

giveaways: 29

PDO: 100.3

oiSV%: .911

ozone starts: 47.2% (avg in van)
dzone starts: 52.8% (avg in van)

Corsi: 49.1 (avg in van)
 

Hoglander

Hits: 38

Blocks: 28

takeaways: 62

give aways: 29

PDO: 98.9

oiSV% .903

ozone starts: 53.7%
dzone starts: 46.3%
corsi: 53.0

 

Virtanen played 38 games this season and was on the ice for a total of 21 goals… 11 for and 10 against.

 

 

The biggest frustration is that we all can see the potential Virtanen possesses to be a game changer, but unfortunately he just cant figure it out and its just a massive waste of potential that kills us. Its too bad this off ice stuff has further derailed his life/career. Maybe without the extra distractions he could have eventually figured it out. We wanted a top 6 power forward overpowering guys on the ice… instead we got a decent bottom 6 guy who ended up overpowering women.

 

Time to move on and just let it go, whats done is done and we have Podkolzin to look forward to, as well as Garland, OEL and Dickinson 

 

 

 

THis is a good post

 

When you tak about Jake losing confidense a couple of things come to mind

 

1 Beiber

2 Bobby Farnham

 

1 Beibs oculd have been the first or second red flag. I always thought it weird that the Canucks made a video of Jake and Jarrod hanging with the Beibs, It was a time when htey could have made a statement about profesionalism, rather they made Jake and Jarrod out to be rock stars, Then Daniel Sedin came down on them a week or two  later.  That was a missed step by management. It seemd to me that rather than a teaching moment the Canucks used Beibs as a Celeb moment, then Daniel tore the rug out. mixed message.

 

2 Jake got beat up by Farnham and no one on the team had the stones to help him out. Prusty ( injured at the time , and not in the line up) called Farnham out on Twitter , that  didn't help. I thnk that went a long way to lost confidence, it took Jake  aalong time to pick up his hitting game after that.

 

Then there was Craig Button on Donnie and Dhali, he had Virtanen pegged at about # 40 in the draft, that is a long way from 6th.

 

[Devron]

23 minutes ago, Dumb Nuck said:

I manage and develop people for a living and when someone fails I’m always sad and wonder if there was anything different I could have done, the blame always lies with both the teacher and the student, just to varying degrees. When I answer to my superiors as to why someone didn’t work out I never blame them but rather look for how I can be better, my goal is for everyone I develop to be a rock star.

I agree with that. Having a perfectionist type personality I can definitely relate with many things I do in life. Just doesn’t work out that way but something that personally I strive for.
 

I’m sure many people in the organization wonder if they could have been a better mentor for Jake including everyone from Green to his Parents.