A new culture is needed

[JM_]

2 minutes ago, snucks said:

Well Mason Ramond had his back broken and how did Canucks respond. They got rid of Raffi Torres the following year. Raffi was tough and could score.

what relevance is that to this years team?

[snucks]

23 hours ago, -DLC- said:

They ARE building a culture...that comes over time and not just by insertion of a few tough guys (although that doesn't hurt either...unless you're the guy they're targeting).

 

Schenn has been HUGE in how he's taken care of business and had the team's back. But it's going to take a toll on him, he can't be the only one.

 

The past few games I've noticed a few scrums where the guys ARE more engaged...they're fueled by momentum and some success that gives them confidence. Bo is like Linden...that's not his game. I want every player to play tough...by that, I mean not be afraid to crash and bang out there in puck battles. To not shy away.

 

Building a hockey team's a bit different than baseball/basketball...it's much more physical and fast moving. Skill and speed are important too, so just getting tough guys isn't the answer, they have to be able to do more. 

 

Give it time to come together...the team's been through a period like no other with COVID and changes. Allow the dust to settle a bit and I'm sure you'll see more of a culture change with a coach/leader who believes in them. Starts there.

 

Miller has been shifting the culture and what some saw as only negative with him is a guy who's passionate and emotional about the game. Fired up and, yes, at some times depleted. 

 

He and Bo make a great leadership duo in my mind.

Schenn has been great. The team needs to protect their goalie, not just Schenn. I also believe the league and the 2 ref system along with so many commercial time-outs, takes away incentive and momentum to fight back when the goalie is attacked.

[RU SERIOUS]

On 5/3/2022 at 8:36 AM, snucks said:

Another thing I think is they sell too many seats to Corporations and not enough to individual fans.

Most "individual fans" can't afford to buy season's tickets.  Unfortunately it's the corporate STH's that keep this franchise afloat.     This is Vancouver - remember - where most peaople can barely afford rent and basic living expenses - let alone thousands for Season tickets.  It is what it is!

[Locke Lamora]

This has to be one of the worst topics ever created CDC. Pretty much confirmed by the tepid engagement so far. 

[CR7]

Without reading any of this, you are correct the fan culture surrounding this team needs a real shake up. 

[iceman64]

On 5/3/2022 at 9:26 AM, -DLC- said:

They ARE building a culture...that comes over time and not just by insertion of a few tough guys (although that doesn't hurt either...unless you're the guy they're targeting).

 

Schenn has been HUGE in how he's taken care of business and had the team's back. But it's going to take a toll on him, he can't be the only one.

 

The past few games I've noticed a few scrums where the guys ARE more engaged...they're fueled by momentum and some success that gives them confidence. Bo is like Linden...that's not his game. I want every player to play tough...by that, I mean not be afraid to crash and bang out there in puck battles. To not shy away.

 

Building a hockey team's a bit different than baseball/basketball...it's much more physical and fast moving. Skill and speed are important too, so just getting tough guys isn't the answer, they have to be able to do more. 

 

Give it time to come together...the team's been through a period like no other with COVID and changes. Allow the dust to settle a bit and I'm sure you'll see more of a culture change with a coach/leader who believes in them. Starts there.

 

Miller has been shifting the culture and what some saw as only negative with him is a guy who's passionate and emotional about the game. Fired up and, yes, at some times depleted. 

 

He and Bo make a great leadership duo in my mind.

If we get at least 2 more, ok nevermind I'd say 3 at least of schenn's but it won't happen.

 Unless this changes and we toughen up, nothing is going to change, we've been on the "soft" road which doesn't get anywhere when going gets tough.

 OR we get a bigger tougher team with NO depth, neither one is a cup winner. End of story...

 Until we get tougher WITH depth, cup? Nope, and not anytime soon.

[Goal:thecup]

On 5/4/2022 at 8:17 AM, stawns said:

I never saw them be intimidated this season.......they might not be a big team, but they don't back down either.  People need to move away from this "big, tough"mentality as that is simply not the way the NHL is anymore.  It's speed, skill and tenacious forechecking.

You're right!  In the season.

Watch the playoffs; every successful team has some enforcers.

[BarnBurner]

On 5/3/2022 at 8:31 AM, snucks said:

A new culture is needed. To start with they should have a regular anthem singer, and use an organ if they still have one. It is a hockey rink Canucks play in not a talent show for singers. Then they need to find players that will protect each other. The captain should be a leader who ill protect the rest of the team or at least try to. This team has not been tough since 2011. Its hard to watch the team get intimidated. The idea that you can have a skilled fast skating team and not have some protectors is ludicrous.

 

They could take some lessons from the Blue Jays and Raptors about building a team .

Yeah, serve and protect, like the Laffs captain?

[BarnBurner]

On 5/3/2022 at 9:52 AM, NUCKER67 said:

Miller and Boudreau ARE the culture.  Re-sign them both, or suffer the consequences

It's definitely a great starting point.

[RU SERIOUS]

On 5/5/2022 at 7:18 AM, CR7 said:

Without reading any of this, you are correct the fan culture surrounding this team needs a real shake up. 

Are you referring to the fans that sit in the Lower Bowl club seats (that were given the corporate paid tickets for free by some salesman and don't even know or care who's playing and are stone-cold quiet during the game and barely even stand-up when a goal is scored)  - OR - are you refering to the Real fans in the upper bowl who paid for the tickets themselves out of their own hard earned money and are the heart and soul of the fan-base and CARE about this team?

[The Lock]

Define tough. Does it mean to agitate opposing teams? Does it mean to have players that play through injuries? Does it mean to simply have someone who will drop the gloves? Something else?

 

All of these can either be deemed "tough" or something else. An agitator could be thought of as "tough", but is that agitator making the other team take penalties and make mistakes or is it causing us to have more penalties? A player who doesn't get injured a lot or plays through injuries won't necessarily be someone who plays a "tough guy" but could be thought of as being tough. Someone who's willing to drop the gloves, while it may seem like they're tough, if they're not able to do other skills as well, they might as well be a pylon in this day and age.

 

So what exactly is "tough"? I feel like people get fixated on the term like it's the messiah or something, yet it feels so vague a lot of the time.

Edited May 8, 2022 by The Lock

[Mackcanuck]

Well on a positive note

 

The Canucks tied Nashville for playoff wins this year! 

[IBatch]

On 5/7/2022 at 9:19 PM, iceman64 said:

If we get at least 2 more, ok nevermind I'd say 3 at least of schenn's but it won't happen.

 Unless this changes and we toughen up, nothing is going to change, we've been on the "soft" road which doesn't get anywhere when going gets tough.

 OR we get a bigger tougher team with NO depth, neither one is a cup winner. End of story...

 Until we get tougher WITH depth, cup? Nope, and not anytime soon.

All you need is one enforcer and the players around them play tougher.   This goes all the way back to Bobby Clark and that team.     Roenick on when Probert was traded to CHi..."just seeing him on the bench makes you feel two feet taller" ....  Sure CAL is loving Lucic right now.   And having Gudbranson gives them another nuclear deterrent.    Who's going to run Markstrom?     Someone might still but odds go way down.   We don't have anyone really - Schenn at least has spent the time to become a better fighter but he's not intimidating anyone that's for sure,  well maybe a little as he's getting a rep now at least (early on he was mostly a punching bag when he dropped them - but that's also the way the leagues trending as a whole)...

 

  Wish that Miller and Horvat would throw their weight around a little more.    Garland plays with heart but he's tiny lol.    Has tried to fight before and he was no Smyl.    At least it's a pretty balanced team by todays standards.   You can't find that many teams in the league that you'd look at and say - "whoa now that's a tough team"... CAL is probably the closest. 

[IBatch]

On 5/8/2022 at 3:41 PM, The Lock said:

Define tough. Does it mean to agitate opposing teams? Does it mean to have players that play through injuries? Does it mean to simply have someone who will drop the gloves? Something else?

 

All of these can either be deemed "tough" or something else. An agitator could be thought of as "tough", but is that agitator making the other team take penalties and make mistakes or is it causing us to have more penalties? A player who doesn't get injured a lot or plays through injuries won't necessarily be someone who plays a "tough guy" but could be thought of as being tough. Someone who's willing to drop the gloves, while it may seem like they're tough, if they're not able to do other skills as well, they might as well be a pylon in this day and age.

 

So what exactly is "tough"? I feel like people get fixated on the term like it's the messiah or something, yet it feels so vague a lot of the time.

How about all of the above?   Pretty sure we see tough when we see it.   Tanev was/is tough ... got injured a lot while here but look at his game.   Edler and the Sedins were tough in the Swedish way,  anyone who can push their bodies the way they did are tough.   Most hockey players in general are tough.   

 

But there definitely is layers of toughness.   You don't get a name like Tiger if there isn't something to it.   I believe - and i maybe i'm just talking out my ass - but believe that a lot of older posters, ones who have been around for at least the 90's but even back to the 70's when Slap Shot was made to make fun of the way the game was played then.     In other words it's "tough" at times to watch players skate away without even a scrum, and it's "tough" when Jay freaking Beagle is the only guy going into scrums on a regular basis - when he started he wasn't a tough guy really lol.   Just a gritty middle six guy.   I think it has a lot to do with generations.   Baby boomers and Gen x players, knew their role and played as if their lives depended on it.   Rivalries existed.   Certain teams hated other teams.    The "average player" was pretty darn tough in all the ways you described.  

 

Know the games changed.   And factually it was bad for the game when goons came in just to have their 4:00 minutes of ice time.    Of course the fans loved it - but that's not an enforcer.   That element of the game is almost gone now.   Well it is actually completely gone.   Even power forwards are all but non-existent.    Wilson that's about it.   Used to be 20 or so of those guys around for decades, that could go to-toe with the toughest of the tough.   

 

The game isn't the same.    It's got no redline.   Eliminating a pass in that zone for sure sped the game up.   Hitting which used to be an art form is now tentative.  And for good reason - almost entirely because of Matt Cooke, but he wasn't the only head hunter.    Stevens ... wow.   Doubt we will ever, ever see a hitter like him again.   

 

Back to power forwards.   Guys like Shane Corson, who wasn't even a power forward really, would destroy most guys in the league today.   Then you have Roberts (go watch him beat the tar out of 230 pound Ben Eager at 41 lol),  who did run McLean 3 times in one game back in 94 .... a level up but not much.   It hasn't been that easy as a fan to watch the game change.   This is the first season since the 90's at least that a bunch of players made it to 100 points.   And the new generation of defenseman finally look to be something like i was used to watching.    League bloated to 32 teams.   From 6.   Since expansion.   Expansion brought the enforcer into the forefront, was absolutely a good time for the fans and the players (ask any of them who played back then and they'd say they simply loved having them on their team...Probert's all-star game every single star was waiting in line to meet him and shake his hand ... ).  

 

All this complaining about the reffing.   Well the league went from right wing all the way to the far left.   Big brother is supposed to take care of the players.   But the game is still the game, and you always need something to fill in the cracks.    Back to team toughness, personally i think it's simply impossible to have without at least one player towing the line, and the easiest way to get that is with one or two guys that play the game on a different wavelength, one that involves protecting the group not just themselves.   Schenn for sure has this in his DNA.    A lot of guys do - most of them become soldiers, fire fighters or policeman.    Girls too just to be gender fair.  

 

Edit: Finally my main point is IF you have a guy or a big (can also be a little brother!) who's got your back and you know that - going into the corners and giving a little sneaky butt end stick to the ribs or an elbow in the liver or extra shove or whatever (stuff that doesn't get called) everything gets elevated.   For me at least, team starts and stops with whom you've go in the roster who's willing to go there.    Tyler Minors has this in him too, not his fault he's freaking so much taller his hits and plays don't always work out.    I like this team.   Adding some "toughness" is never a bad thing. 

Edited May 11, 2022 by IBatch

[DrJockitch]

28 minutes ago, IBatch said:

All you need is one enforcer and the players around them play tougher.   This goes all the way back to Bobby Clark and that team.     Roenick on when Probert was traded to CHi..."just seeing him on the bench makes you feel two feet taller" ....  Sure CAL is loving Lucic right now.   And having Gudbranson gives them another nuclear deterrent.    Who's going to run Markstrom?     Someone might still but odds go way down.   We don't have anyone really - Schenn at least has spent the time to become a better fighter but he's not intimidating anyone that's for sure,  well maybe a little as he's getting a rep now at least (early on he was mostly a punching bag when he dropped them - but that's also the way the leagues trending as a whole)...

 

  Wish that Miller and Horvat would throw their weight around a little more.    Garland plays with heart but he's tiny lol.    Has tried to fight before and he was no Smyl.    At least it's a pretty balanced team by todays standards.   You can't find that many teams in the league that you'd look at and say - "whoa now that's a tough team"... CAL is probably the closest. 

Probert and Clarke are ancient history, that isn’t how the league is anymore and the game is better for it.
Toughness is a team concept, not just floating out a boxing hobo on skates 5 minutes a game. 

Guddy as bad as he was here was a 3rd overall, Lucic is much more than a goon, or at least he used to be. Even without Lucic and Guddy, Calgary always cultivated an identity of team toughness.

‘There is always room for toughness and tough players but it is no longer the era where that is all you need to get a 4th line winger role. You still need to be able to play. The Bobby Clarkes will always have a spot in the game but the there isn’t a spot for the Sestitos anymore. The goon era ended. 

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

Probert and Clarke are ancient history, that isn’t how the league is anymore and the game is better for it.
Toughness is a team concept, not just floating out a boxing hobo on skates 5 minutes a game. 

Guddy as bad as he was here was a 3rd overall, Lucic is much more than a goon, or at least he used to be. Even without Lucic and Guddy, Calgary always cultivated an identity of team toughness.

‘There is always room for toughness and tough players but it is no longer the era where that is all you need to get a 4th line winger role. You still need to be able to play. The Bobby Clarkes will always have a spot in the game but the there isn’t a spot for the Sestitos anymore. The goon era ended. 

What we need are Iginla and Pronger.  Guys who are amazing players, but who are tough as hell too.  These guys are rare though.  So we need guys who have internal toughness.  They are like the Twins or a Timex.  “Take a licking but ...”

[IBatch]

11 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

Probert and Clarke are ancient history, that isn’t how the league is anymore and the game is better for it.
Toughness is a team concept, not just floating out a boxing hobo on skates 5 minutes a game. 

Guddy as bad as he was here was a 3rd overall, Lucic is much more than a goon, or at least he used to be. Even without Lucic and Guddy, Calgary always cultivated an identity of team toughness.

‘There is always room for toughness and tough players but it is no longer the era where that is all you need to get a 4th line winger role. You still need to be able to play. The Bobby Clarkes will always have a spot in the game but the there isn’t a spot for the Sestitos anymore. The goon era ended. 

Huh?  Probert and Clarke could play the game too you know that right?   Who would you rather have on your fourth line ... Domi (who could also play the game), Probert  ... Clark wasn't a goon at all lol - a power forward all 5'11 and 200lbs of him ...  They don't have to be ancient history.    It's just that this generation simply isn't willing to do what they did.   Bobby Clark was protected.   And as a result could play his game to its fullest.   That's also my point.   Same as Gretzky.   IF Crosby didn't have to deal with what he did - the transition period - he'd have been safe with a Semenko on his wing.   He didn't have that and almost had his career cut short.   Gretzky even said that in his book.    Now the " new and improved" system is locked in.   But the product simply is not as good.   Both for the fans and the players.   How many hand injured occurred after the enforcers and goons left the game?   It used to be a code violation.   It got so bad that the league had to crack down heavy on it ... probably already forgot that right?   Crosby took Methot's finger off - everyone was doing it.   That didn't exist in the game before like that anyways.   You won't convince me that the game is better off without power forward like Wendel Clark, Rick Tocchet, Cam Neely, Shayne Corson, Kevin Stevens, Shanny, plus plus plus plus plus ... Probert and Domi could easily play 7-10 years in this league at their peak playing fourth line minutes.   Which now is around 10. 

Edited May 11, 2022 by IBatch

[IBatch]

12 minutes ago, Alflives said:

What we need are Iginla and Pronger.  Guys who are amazing players, but who are tough as hell too.  These guys are rare though.  So we need guys who have internal toughness.  They are like the Twins or a Timex.  “Take a licking but ...”

Those guys have also left the league unfortunately.   For a couple years you'd be hard pressed to find a better D in any era then Pronger at his peak.   A lot better then Lidstrom.    Was an absolute beast playing in EDM.   On a better team not much later won a cup.     Iginla was the last power forward we might see for a long time that makes the HHOF.    Not trying to bait the younger generations, but i just don't see that coming out with the guys now in their 30's or the ones coming in now in their 20's.    Benn maybe but even he's not close to Iginla great.   A couple fights doesn't make him Iginla, neither does a couple good seasons.     I'd love to have either of those guys on our team right now.    They just don't exist anymore though.   Rod Langway and Larry Robinson, we're the only other D's that i saw defend as well as Pronger could at his peak.  Simply outstanding.    Was pretty decent in the O-zone too. 

[Baratheon]

11 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Huh?  Probert and Clarke could play the game too you know that right?   Who would you rather have on your fourth line ... Domi (who could also play the game), Probert  ... Clark wasn't a goon at all lol - a power forward all 5'11 and 200lbs of him ...  They don't have to be ancient history.    It's just that this generation simply isn't willing to do what they did.   Bobby Clark was protected.   And as a result could play his game to its fullest.   That's also my point.   Same as Gretzky.   IF Crosby didn't have to deal with what he did - the transition period - he'd have been safe with a Semenko on his wing.   He didn't have that and almost had his career cut short.   Gretzky even said that in his book.    Now the " new and improved" system is locked in.   But the product simply is not as good.   Both for the fans and the players.   How many hand injured occurred after the enforcers and goons left the game?   It used to be a code violation.   It got so bad that the league had to crack down heavy on it ... probably already forgot that right?   Crosby took Methot's finger off - everyone was doing it.   That didn't exist in the game before like that anyways.   You won't convince me that the game is better off without power forward like Wendel Clark, Rick Tocchet, Cam Neely, Shayne Corson, Kevin Stevens, Shanny, plus plus plus plus plus ... Probert and Domi could easily play 7-10 years in this league at their peak playing fourth line minutes.   Which now is around 10. 

Not only COULD Clarke play but he was a straight up star in the league!  Putting up like 120 points per year (maybe more than that.  didn't look it up).  There's definitely room for hard nosed power forwards in the modern game.  They have to focus a little more on their quickness than they used to but that style of play is absolutely still effective.  

Not sure about this generation being "unwilling to do what they did".  The game doesn't allow them to really try.  The instigator penalty, the way the game is coached, culture etc.  means that guys risk suspension and being benched for playing that way.  

[IBatch]

24 minutes ago, Baratheon said:

Not only COULD Clarke play but he was a straight up star in the league!  Putting up like 120 points per year (maybe more than that.  didn't look it up).  There's definitely room for hard nosed power forwards in the modern game.  They have to focus a little more on their quickness than they used to but that style of play is absolutely still effective.  

Not sure about this generation being "unwilling to do what they did".  The game doesn't allow them to really try.  The instigator penalty, the way the game is coached, culture etc.  means that guys risk suspension and being benched for playing that way.  

I'm also taking about Wendel Clark.   and Bobby Clarke  ...  he was my first favourite player growing up (Bobby)   Because i was a kid and thought his smile and hair was b!tching.    I get the history of the game from the 50's and up thanks to my parents generation and the books i've read about it.   Not an expert. But can say the death of the enforcer had serious consequences, as did more then anything salary disclosure and further expansion as far as entertainment value goes.   Bench clearing brawls growing up were common lol.   Get the instigator rule and why it was needed and also how it was fiercely combatted by some traditionalists as well  (the rats will have free reign lol ... didn't really happen did it?).   Price of progress.   The league would be much better off with 24 teams as far as product goes.    21 league team isn't called the golden era of hockey for nothing.    Way too many teams miss the playoffs - and the league took decades to approach the quality of play as well.   People think the athletes are way better today ... well maybe then the 70's - but absolutely not the 80-90's.   They are not.     Easy to trace back.   Iginla wasn't good in the 90's... Lidstrom was ok but not top level yet.    Dead puck era was a result of expanding and putting too many plugs into circulation.    And a regular season game back then was worse then most post season games now as far as how players were treated (and most wasn't called).    Change takes time.    Fighting your way into the league is long gone (literally).    We want to talk about toughness.   Well the NHL looks like approaching what the Euro leagues are like now in that respect.   So where are we going to get it?    It is a generational thing.   Not their fault - it's "progress".    My final answer is what we have is what we are going to get.    Enforcers are gone and won't come back (and i'm not again talking about goons there is a difference).    The only saving grace is some people have that gene and some don't.   Schenn does obviously.    And like i said before - it only takes a few to get the rest to man up.    The game is still the best in the world despite the change.   But this "toughness" subject comes up every single year on the CDC ... because even the younger generations saw more of it if they were around since 2010 or so.   Both on the team and in the league.   Those guys have mostly aged out or are gone.    Gadj was a throwback ... why i was so dissapointed to see him go ... Burroughs looks to have it too, and Schenn was a pleasant surprise for me at least.    

 

Edit:  And on Clarke.   If you knew him or watched him play he was a super-star - but also played a lot bigger then he was because he had protection.   Which was my earlier point.   For folks that remember, he was a rat himself too...did crazy stuff because he knew he could do whatever the heck he wanted and the entire team would back him up.   Wouldn't that be great for EP?  Or QHs.   It sure would. 

Edited May 11, 2022 by IBatch