[PGT] Vancouver Canucks at Colorado Avalanche | Nov. 23, 2022

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, SilentSeater said:

I would take the player McCabe turned out to be on today’s team in a second. A steady no crap D with an edge and some skill… was always sad he was the one to go, and maybe another player could have gotten it done, but it’s hard to argue that trade worked out well for us.

Didn’t McCabe score nearly 20 one year?  The guy was a very good D and overall player.  

[4petesake]

18 minutes ago, SilentSeater said:

I would take the player McCabe turned out to be on today’s team in a second. A steady no crap D with an edge and some skill… was always sad he was the one to go, and maybe another player could have gotten it done, but it’s hard to argue that trade worked out well for us.

Helluva player. Over 1100 games, wore a C or an A most places he played, finished 4th for Norris, was a second team all-star. Like you I was bummed when he left but the trade speaks for itself.

[Coconuts]

1 hour ago, Harold Drunken said:

Ok. It's my opinion that Andrew Alberts is a greater Canuck than Markus Naslund. Because its my opinion, it can't be wrong. 

 

You can call a statement an opinion all you want, doesn't mean it can't be subjectively and factually incorrect..thats all I'm saying.

I know you're not serious but that's not a sentence I ever expected to read 

[wai_lai416]

3 hours ago, Alflives said:

Martin has been better than Demko though.  Not a lot better, but clearly better.  That’s not opinion, but fact.   

Demko saves at .883

Martin saves at .901

yes, both are below league average, but Martin at least gives us a chance.  Demko has been so bad that the guys lack confidence in him to stop the easy ones.  Demko needs to be better.  He’s been really bad.  

Yea I agree with you Martin have been better than Demko I don’t deny or argue that. But they both are below average and not really the reason why we won games. Martins stats with his 4 wins in November sv% wise is still worse than Demko and his gaa were also worse than Demko prior to Colorado game despite having 3 wins. Demko needs to get better totally agree. But to say Martin is the only reason why we are winning is laughable when your team have to consistently score 4+ goals to win a game you are winning in spite of your goalie. 

[FaninMex]

5 hours ago, Alflives said:

The ones we’ve been trading away for the last decade.  The cost of Vey, Baer, Gudbranson, Sutter, OEL, and this year to dumperoo Dickinson.  And likely I’ve missed some.  

Well...

 

Gudbranson was hyped.

 

Our PK sure could have used Sutter last year and this year.

Baer was pretty good for us until he got the double concussion. Then, he was considerably slower. 

Our PK could use the Dickinson that is playing on Chicago

 

[ShawnAntoski]

3 hours ago, Alflives said:

True, but we were Cup favourites were n 2011 from the very start of the season.  We were Cup favourites in 2012 too.  Those Gillis teams were the best we’ve ever had.  

I had already stated, that the Gillis teams were solid contenders - but that roster was still not good enough, to get past the NHL & Bruins.  Fun years to be a fan but it went downhill REAL fast and the drop to mediocrity, is still ongoing...

[Hairy Kneel]

13 hours ago, Qwags said:

We've seen this song and dance every year the past 5 years. At what point does management realize that they simply have to reset?

 

Vanity can easily overtake wisdom. It usually over takes common sense.” 

 

Linden was right, we needed a rebuild. So many egos got involved to try and take shortcuts to a cup. I saw that the Sedin's prime years were passed but management and ownership thought we could buy our way back to another chance at a Stanley Cup after 2011. That was a mirage that were paying for in time lost. We're actually pretty lucky to be where we are. Bo, EP, Hughes, even Miller sort of all fell into our laps. And conceivably, we have a timely spark plug with Spencer, then hopefully Demko finds his game? Then who knows? Common sense says Martin is ready right now, that Bear and Burroughs are serviceable, our vets will ALL show up ie Boeser. We've got Russians now. But our locker room needs some sort of unity. If that's led by our Coach or Bo and/or Schenn, maybe EP too.  It's also common sense that with our finesse skill players, the great ones we got, that we need to balance it with grit and sandpaper. Schenn is showing how. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by Hairy Kneel

[ShawnAntoski]

13 minutes ago, Hairy Kneel said:

 

Vanity can easily overtake wisdom. It usually over takes common sense.” 

 

Linden was right, we needed a rebuild. So many egos got involved to try and take shortcuts to a cup. I saw that the Sedin's prime years were passed but management and ownership thought we could buy our way back to another chance at a Stanley Cup after 2011. That was a mirage that were paying for in time lost. We're actually pretty lucky to be where we are. Bo, EP, Hughes, even Miller sort of all fell into our laps. And conceivably, we have timely spark plug with Spencer, then hopefully Demko finds his game? Then who knows? Common sense says Martin is ready right now, that Bear and Burroughs are serviceable, our vets will ALL show up, we've got Russians now, and that our locker room needs some sort of unity. If that's led by our Coach or Bo and/or Schenn. It is common sense that with finesse skill players, the great ones we got, that we need to balance it with grit and sandpaper. Schenn is showing how. 

The crew needs an Alpha, to follow and Schenn would be a good candidate to fill the captaincy, when Horvat gets a chance to win a cup, with another team.

Edited November 25, 2022 by ShawnAntoski

[VanCan2023]

1 hour ago, wai_lai416 said:

Yea I agree with you Martin have been better than Demko I don’t deny or argue that. But they both are below average and not really the reason why we won games. Martins stats with his 4 wins in November sv% wise is still worse than Demko and his gaa were also worse than Demko prior to Colorado game despite having 3 wins. Demko needs to get better totally agree. But to say Martin is the only reason why we are winning is laughable when your team have to consistently score 4+ goals to win a game you are winning in spite of your goalie. 

The Oilers have been proving for a few years you need above average goaltending to go on a run. Fortunately Colorado proved it only needs to actually be slightly above. Fortunately X2 we have a proven goalie that will soon get back to his normal self and this will be a mute point.   

[wai_lai416]

22 minutes ago, VanCan2023 said:

The Oilers have been proving for a few years you need above average goaltending to go on a run. Fortunately Colorado proved it only needs to actually be slightly above. Fortunately X2 we have a proven goalie that will soon get back to his normal self and this will be a mute point.   

the difference is colorado have well above average defence prolly top of the league if not near the top. it's been proven multiple times you either win with a vezina caliber goaltender with slightly above average defence.. or you win with elite level defence and slightly above average goaltending.. Demko if on his game can be that vezina caliber goaltender.. only problem is we are no where near slightly above average defence.. we are at the well below average defence and it's not even close.

[DownUndaCanuck]

15 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

the difference is colorado have well above average defence prolly top of the league if not near the top. it's been proven multiple times you either win with a vezina caliber goaltender with slightly above average defence.. or you win with elite level defence and slightly above average goaltending.. Demko if on his game can be that vezina caliber goaltender.. only problem is we are no where near slightly above average defence.. we are at the well below average defence and it's not even close.

Exactly this, I think we over-simplify things too. Defence isn't just your defenders, it's your forwards as well.

 

Edmonton's team defence from their forwards is dreadful. McDavid and Draisaitl are relatively lazy back-checkers. Then look at guys like Crosby and MacKinnon - they are absolute dogs coming back and defending, and they know how to play physically too. As a 5 man squad, the Avs defended well but to be fair they played more of a possession game anyway. 

 

Makar and Toews are far from the best defensive defencemen in the world. When you look at the cream of the crop in say Hedman, they're IMO nowhere near as strong defensively or in front of their own net. They played defence a different way - quick passes and great skating. This is the new NHL and probably the first time a mobile defence has trumped a solid physical defence in a long, long time.

 

As for the Canucks, right now our defence is neither. Hughes is a great passer and skater, one of the best in the league, but he's going nowhere if he's the only one out there. I think Petey and Bo have played brilliant defensively but when you've got Miller out there and Myers on the back-end, that 5 man unit is going to get eaten up.

 

Teams win now by having literally every 5 man unit on the ice solid defensively, and it looks like just about anyone can score now, but not everyone can defend well. Edmonton aren't going anywhere, you could argue either are the Leafs, because as a 5 man unit their guys struggle defensively. Nurse is a fantastic big, strong defenceman who can score 50-60 points easily, but he is sometimes suspect defensively.

[ShawnAntoski]

51 minutes ago, VanCan2023 said:

The Oilers have been proving for a few years you need above average goaltending to go on a run. Fortunately Colorado proved it only needs to actually be slightly above. Fortunately X2 we have a proven goalie that will soon get back to his normal self and this will be a mute point.   

Imo, when it comes to the playoffs - it is ALSO about the LUCK of the match ups.  Last year, the Spoilers got hot and easily disposed of the Flakes.  It would REALLY had been fun to watch the Flakes vs the Avalanche - but JM, is not a proven playoff performer and that is where the Flakes are lacking, when it comes to their playoff fortune.  Anyways, JM will help lead them to a playoff spot and after that, who knows ?

Edited November 25, 2022 by ShawnAntoski

[VanCan2023]

42 minutes ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

Exactly this, I think we over-simplify things too. Defence isn't just your defenders, it's your forwards as well.

 

Edmonton's team defence from their forwards is dreadful. McDavid and Draisaitl are relatively lazy back-checkers. Then look at guys like Crosby and MacKinnon - they are absolute dogs coming back and defending, and they know how to play physically too. As a 5 man squad, the Avs defended well but to be fair they played more of a possession game anyway. 

 

Makar and Toews are far from the best defensive defencemen in the world. When you look at the cream of the crop in say Hedman, they're IMO nowhere near as strong defensively or in front of their own net. They played defence a different way - quick passes and great skating. This is the new NHL and probably the first time a mobile defence has trumped a solid physical defence in a long, long time.

 

As for the Canucks, right now our defence is neither. Hughes is a great passer and skater, one of the best in the league, but he's going nowhere if he's the only one out there. I think Petey and Bo have played brilliant defensively but when you've got Miller out there and Myers on the back-end, that 5 man unit is going to get eaten up.

 

Teams win now by having literally every 5 man unit on the ice solid defensively, and it looks like just about anyone can score now, but not everyone can defend well. Edmonton aren't going anywhere, you could argue either are the Leafs, because as a 5 man unit their guys struggle defensively. Nurse is a fantastic big, strong defenceman who can score 50-60 points easily, but he is sometimes suspect defensively.

I believe a healthy Hughs can get more points then any dman today with a right fit. Look at his ppg with frickin Schwan?? However winning a Norris and being considered top 3 is more than points. Give him a partner like Tanev and watch him flourish!.... 

[DownUndaCanuck]

15 minutes ago, VanCan2023 said:

I believe a healthy Hughs can get more points then any dman today with a right fit. Look at his ppg with frickin Schwan?? However winning a Norris and being considered top 3 is more than points. Give him a partner like Tanev and watch him flourish!.... 

The irony that we had Hughes' perfect partner for 4M cap space and let him walk is too much. Tanev with Hughes would have surely been one of the best pairings in the league.

[IBatch]

11 hours ago, stawns said:

playoffs or not, there's a big shake up coming because they can't keep Bo and Miller and then have enough $ to sign Petey to the mammoth contract he's going to get soon.  So regardless of standings, one of Bo or Miller is going to be moved........at least.

If  cap does go up the 4-4.5 Bettman alluded to a couple weeks ago, that's more then enough money for Miller and Bo, but there won't be any money left for Kuzmo unless Pearson is traded.   There are other ways to sign Bo if they want him.   The question is, should they. 

[IBatch]

7 hours ago, VanCan2023 said:

Thanks and I agree now, he never turned out to be anything more then a second line dman at best. Not sure if that was injury related or not, but he was projected to be a modern day Fox, Heiskanen, dare I say Hughs? Type dman. So I can see why Bowman and the bitches were horney for him. 

McCabe came in as a hard nosed, defensive d projected maybe third pairing, second rounder I believe, have  write up in my filing cabinet, from his rookie year.   Tough and fought.   Made it into Tuff Guys, a magazine that ranked the enforcers/fighters and both him and Brashear were recognized as future guys to watch out for.   McCabe wasn't projected to be small PMD,  more of a Tonordi.    He earned a spot on our team, and aside from his frequent can opener was actually very decent.    I liked him anyways.    Tough.  Sandpaper and actually could put up some points. Felt he had potential, and obviously he did.    And yes he turned into a first line D close to leading the league in scoring 3 years in a row.   Both in TO and in Florida, and went on to play over 1000 games.   6'2"  225lbs and multiple seasons of 150plus PIMs is nothing like those guys.    It actually hurt losing McCabe, wasn't a popular trade at the time for sure.    Thing i didn't like was his can opener and his trips, but he was built for that era and he got away often enough...Thing he might be remembered most for was fighting Chara and getting thrown around like a paper weight lol 

 

Edit: He came in when this team was in transition.   Still had Lumme and Murzyn and Babcyh, the latter two long in the tooth.  Hedican was getting better, Aucion becoming more palatable...Ohlund and his eye injury.  Strudwick in the sidelines but used for toughness.    The Linden and Bure trades were primarily done to create a group of younger D's, well done for Messier but the return was D focused.   Bertuzzi and McCabe weren't slam dunks that's for sure.   Of course that trade tree is a doozy. 

Edited November 25, 2022 by IBatch

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, VanCan2023 said:

I believe a healthy Hughs can get more points then any dman today with a right fit. Look at his ppg with frickin Schwan?? However winning a Norris and being considered top 3 is more than points. Give him a partner like Tanev and watch him flourish!.... 

Watching Makar, i don't think that's possible.   Guy could have had a couple goals ... QHs will pile up the assist, but i bet his high water mark at best for scoring goals, which of course is more important,  rivals what Edler and Ohlund did year in, year out which is low double digits.    And doesn't surpass either Jovo or Aucion, and they did it in the dead puck era.    You have to actually venture more then a couple strides into the D zone for one, Myers does it more often (not that he can finish anymore lol, snake bitten) but does put himself in the slot at least ... 

Edited November 25, 2022 by IBatch

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

The irony that we had Hughes' perfect partner for 4M cap space and let him walk is too much. Tanev with Hughes would have surely been one of the best pairings in the league.

Yes it sure does.   Of those guys he was the only one that i cared about losing and even then, his injuries were a decent enough reason to say adios.    Turns out playing here is a lot more dangerous (so far )...

[IBatch]

14 hours ago, lmm said:

I beg to differ

I think there are many fans and people  in management that are quite happy slogging away in pergitory

Happy?  No.   Willing to enjoy the little things?  Yes lol.   As fans anyways.  As far as management goes, playoff and winning for sure is their focus.   Creating interest is a lot easier to do with winning.  

 

Doubt management wants mushy middle.    They want a perennial playoff team.   The Aqua's bought at a good time.   The WCE and Sedin era added nationwide fans....two more generations.   As fans we have suffered more than any club but maybe Buffalo.   They know we are held hostage.   That said, even that fanbase has its limits.   Another 8 years of the same isn't going to do them any favours.  

[Goal:thecup]

14 hours ago, -AJ- said:

The unfortunate truth is that 7-10 in 2022 isn't the same as a 7-10 in the 80s or 90s. Wins are easier to come by, to the point where a .500 record is no longer average, but just plain bad.

I think the error occurs because of the random nature that 2 point games are turned into 3 point games.

Since the loser point was introduced and tie games were eliminated, approximately 23% of games have gone to OT.

(This 23% has been remarkably consistent, so I am going to use it, only a couple years were over by about 1%.)

 

So, my math is:

82 games x 2 points = 164 points; under the old system a .500 record (which would eliminate about half the teams from the playoffs) is 82 points.

 

Under the new system, there are an additional 19 points (23% x 82 games) on average every year (slightly more, so round up to 20pts).

So this system produces an average of 184 points per season and a .500 record becomes 92 points.

 

The old adage that a .500 record or better gets you into the playoffs is just a benchmark or an objective, but it still holds because there are 32 teams and 16 get in.

It differs from division to division and conference to conference due to the differences in wins/losses between each group.

i.e. In a weaker division, a .500 record is more likely to get you into the playoffs (rem: a .500 record now is 92 points).

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by Goal:thecup
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