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Edit- Rick Tocchet Expected To Be Next Head Coach

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BertaNuck

By BertaNuck
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AnthonyG Canucks Rookie

AnthonyG

Posted
Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, DSVII said:

Haha it's fine @AnthonyG. We can have different opinions. Ultimately I think our discussions have run their course. If you wonder why I'm just so militant on some of my points,  I still remember a time on this forum when others lambasted me for crying about 'asset management' and 'cap space' and being told that is not important when we signed Roussel and Beagle. And lost Hamhuis for nothing.

 

I never said development wasn't important, that's why I keep bringing up the transition from Chicago Wolves to Utica as an achievement under Gillis, because it gave us autonomy and control over how our prospects were used, Gillis had no ability to tell Chicago to play his prospects and put them in positions to succeed. I believe you need to maximize both development and draft capital to increase your chances of finding a late round hit.

 

I acknowledge our differences and though I don't agree with your arguments or how they're presented, I don't question your fandom or your passion. I can leave it at that.

 

I just want to be able to enjoy this team again, and man, has the last decade been depressing. Think I'll just take a step back for awhile because it is getting wearing. 

 

 

So I think to be fair to everyone here and to show respect for your work that you’ve shared. I will write a forum topic, to clear this of the irrelevancy of our argument vs what this topic is actually about. Its going to be very lengthy to read, but I will do my best to give a good depiction of what has actually gone on the last 8 years and I will share my argument once again of draft capital vs development. I strongly believe in 2 years, we will be laughing about this stupid debate. @Warhippy. @Shayster007I’ll apologize for what I’ve said @DSVII that includes you as well. I want peace with all you guys here on the forums, I need you guys to also be open to the other side of the fence. Have an open mind and not a closed mind to what the issues really are. Also have patience guys. Our core is so young right now and 2 years of gaining experience and reaching their prime is going to be huge for us. Thats 2 more years of us aging positively and maintaining that for years, while over 2/3 of the league are going to begin aging negatively, declining and running into further compounding cap issues. While we develop guys in the minors who will come in at a crucial time and make an impact on ELCs/cheap deals.

 

and yes I do understand the value of draft capital, but without development, draft capital is almost worthless. Draft capital relies on odds, development is the best way to increase your odds and if you have little draft capital, your development NEEDS to be rock solid. They go hand in hand, but development is a far greater guarantee than relying on odds alone.

 

 

edit: sorry I @‘d you @Shayster007 but TFB, its an apology. 
 

can I LOLOLOL?

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AnthonyG Canucks Rookie

AnthonyG

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Posted
28 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

They have every chance of succession but have also missed out horrifically in their drafts barring those high picks.  At days end, any team can succeed with the draft if they get lucky.  Luck and patience have as much to do with that as anything else.  But, they also HAVE to succeed on the ice and through their pro scouting/trades and the cap and not just on the back end.  Since 2009/2010 every draft success Colorado has had was a top 10/5 pick.  This team of ours should since 2014 be able to say with the picks they've had; that they've had similar success but they haven't.

 

That's all there is to it.

And this is where COL took advantage trading a 2nd overall Duchene and ROR to retool around Mackinnon and Landeskog. Which is what we should have done with Miller at last years TDL to retool around Petey, Horvat and co.

We still can retool around Petey and co. With a Horvat trade, which I think Miller will slot back into C once Horvat is moved. Hes the best option for C once Horvat is gone. JR and PA have botched it up to this point. Thats not to say they cant rectify this situation, but it doesnt look good right now.

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MaxVerstappen33 Canucks First-Line

MaxVerstappen33

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7 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

And this is where COL took advantage trading a 2nd overall Duchene and ROR to retool around Mackinnon and Landeskog. Which is what we should have done with Miller at last years TDL to retool around Petey, Horvat and co.

We still can retool around Petey and co. With a Horvat trade, which I think Miller will slot back into C once Horvat is moved. Hes the best option for C once Horvat is gone. JR and PA have botched it up to this point. Thats not to say they cant rectify this situation, but it doesnt look good right now.

They said today that they need roster players in trade for Horvat+ and not futures as core returns. This is what prevented a Miller trade and will most likely prevent a good Horvat haul.

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Fred65 Canucks First-Line

Fred65

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

Ask yourself this. DID you TRULY believe Jim Benning or ANY GM taking over and starting in the state this organization was in 2014, would draft and build a contender in under 10 years? Like honestly? 

 

As for the SCF loss, I am WELL aware and highly educated on why we lost. I'm VERY aware of the injury status of that roster in that playoff run. Gillis also left a cap mess behind for an organization that needed to rebuild, plus all the NMCs and NTCs AND how old and stale that team was, that made things even more difficult to find suitors to take guys like Garrisson. Kesler was able to say no to a Chicago deal, Benning had to scramble to make a deal with ANA. Makes it hard to get what you need when the player holds control over where they want to go. Now you have to sort through their player personnel and find a package that works for what your organization needs. 

 

Also, how is it fair to JB who had to

1) rebuild

2) little to no prospects

3) old aged out players with little to no value to speed up a rebuild or retool

4) deal with a cap recapture

5) deal with 2 expansion drafts

6) a flat cap

7) COVID wiping out his entire team mid season

 

Is that really fair to sh*t on him? He had to deal with ALL of that while trying to rebuild. 

Whats Gillis excuse for driving that 2010-11 roster into the ground less than 3 years after being in the finals and winning 2 back to back presidents trophies???

Boston is STILL relevant today and STILL dominating. Why wasnt Gillis more proactive? Or at least better with his trades/signings (Matthias, Booth, Ballard, Garisson etc)

 

 

 

We are where we are because we were in a talent DEFECIT from 2005-2013. The lack of NHL players produced during that period is what set us back. Other organizations have players in their bloody prime or soon to close out successful careers from 2005-onward. We found nothing and THAT is why we are where we are.You basically have to draft a player that is 10 years developed in 2014 to make up for 2005. You cant be drafting rookies who need time to catch up to the players drafted years before them who are in their prime and expect success for the team. 

 I think you're missing the point, Gillis NEW the roster needed rebuilding but was thwarted in this objective by FA. You also glossed over ( to fit your love of Benning ) the fact we have NEVER had as much success during the entire franchise history. Benning was just what FA wanted a yes man! and during his 8 years (EIGHT) never advanced the Vcr future. You can rail on about Prospects as much as you like but prospects do not a success make. Think Juolevi, think Virtanen, prospects are NOT an automatic pass gaol card! and if prospects are what you're all about JB did trade away a number of first round pick ( think OEL rather than Dylin Guenther )  This much i know I've been a STH for a long time and never did I get as much pleasure of attending game than during the Gillis era, I more often than not let the game with a smile! Whie we're at it lets not forget the Ericksson deal  :sadno:

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AnthonyG Canucks Rookie

AnthonyG

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11 minutes ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

They said today that they need roster players in trade for Horvat+ and not futures as core returns. This is what prevented a Miller trade and will most likely prevent a good Horvat haul.

Yes but roster players can mean young RFA players that have serious potential but are buried behind other players. Such as Laffrienierre

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AnthonyG Canucks Rookie

AnthonyG

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9 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

 I think you're missing the point, Gillis NEW the roster needed rebuilding but was thwarted in this objective by FA. You also glossed over ( to fit your love of Benning ) the fact we have NEVER had as much success during the entire franchise history. Benning was just what FA wanted a yes man! and during his 8 years (EIGHT) never advanced the Vcr future. You can rail on about Prospects as much as you like but prospects do not a success make. Think Juolevi, think Virtanen, prospects are NOT an automatic pass gaol card! and if prospects are what you're all about JB did trade away a number of first round pick ( think OEL rather than Dylin Guenther )  This much i know I've been a STH for a long time and never did I get as much pleasure of attending game than during the Gillis era, I more often than not let the game with a smile! Whie we're at it lets not forget the Ericksson deal  :sadno:

Nono… Im not missing the point. I think you guys are missing the point. 
 

I hope this is the last time I have to repeat myself….Vancouver was successful during Gillis’s era due to the drafting from ‘99-‘04. Along with that drafting was the development of players from those drafts. The Sedins developed under a watchful eye at the NHL level behind the WCE. We were able to mentor and shelter them at the NHL level and develop prospects/players like Kesler, Edler, Burrows, Bieksa, Raymond, Hansen, Rypien….Where in Gillis’s era, did we have that same sort of development success or drafting?

 

Olli Juolevi was unfortunate, more than a bust. His issues were health related purely, nothing to do with IQ or quality of play.

 

JT was traded for 20th overall who has a slim chance of becoming an NHLer. JTs value at last TDL was enough to recoup the “losses” in the JT trade and OEL trade. This management group BLEW IT.

 

Of course you would enjoy the Gillis era, it was a contender. This is a rebuilding phase. Not only that but the “Gillis era” is more like the Burke and Nonis era, because that was their team they built for the very large majority.

 

Eriksson?? Tell me how that effected us in a rebuilding phase? Not only that, but how successful were we with guys like LE, Beagle and Roussel on our roster, versus now?

used to be able to kill penalties…. 2 seasons in a row since parting with those guys, that our PK has been historically worse and worse. Gee…  seems to me like they served a purpose and did it quite well. LE may not have been productive, but his deployment was primarily defensive as indicated by his zone starts, PK time and linemates. And before you say he played with the twins… he spent 31% of his TOI with the twins in his first season. The remainder of his time was with the bottom 6 to take on defensive responsibilities because we needed help there. That was purely the coaches choice to utilize him defensively

 

 

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Ghostsof1915 Canucks Hall-of-Famer

Ghostsof1915

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38 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

And this is where COL took advantage trading a 2nd overall Duchene and ROR to retool around Mackinnon and Landeskog. Which is what we should have done with Miller at last years TDL to retool around Petey, Horvat and co.

We still can retool around Petey and co. With a Horvat trade, which I think Miller will slot back into C once Horvat is moved. Hes the best option for C once Horvat is gone. JR and PA have botched it up to this point. Thats not to say they cant rectify this situation, but it doesnt look good right now.

Was there a tangible offer last trade deadline though? You can't make a trade if no one is offering you anything. Maybe no one wanted him last year too. 

I wouldn't hold my breath someone is going to want him on this TDL either. 

Other teams know about the Canucks. Maybe Hughes and Bo might get you something decent. Or Kuz. 

I'd love to see a hockey trade. But........ 

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AnthonyG Canucks Rookie

AnthonyG

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1 minute ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Was there a tangible offer last trade deadline though? You can't make a trade if no one is offering you anything. Maybe no one wanted him last year too. 

I wouldn't hold my breath someone is going to want him on this TDL either. 

Other teams know about the Canucks. Maybe Hughes and Bo might get you something decent. Or Kuz. 

I'd love to see a hockey trade. But........ 

there were offers. I am dead certain they could have gone back to the table with NYR and hammered out a deal with 50% retention for this season and let NYR figure out a contract extension. Or shopped around more actively instead of investing their time in a contract extension before extending Horvat.

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-DLC- Canucks Hall-of-Famer

-DLC-

Posted
Posted

Got his whiteboard, his stick....I think maybe he can save this organization. Maybe.

325328407_502894848626498_71071808848097

 

 

I'm trying to keep things light lately...survival mode here. But, in all honesty, I think a coaching change at this point is ridiculous. Finish the season and use the time to actively seek replacements and make changes. None of this "i'll give my buddy Rick a call" stuff. Someone suited to the team, not the management.

 

I'm not sure who that is...but I don't want rushed, reactionary decisions being made. Think it through with a solid, long term vision/plan. Not a fly by the seat of your pants ongoing response to shut the crowd up. Plan don't pander.

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R3aL Canucks Star

R3aL

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7 minutes ago, -DLC- said:

Got his whiteboard, his stick....I think maybe he can save this organization. Maybe.

325328407_502894848626498_71071808848097

 

 

I'm trying to keep things light lately...survival mode here. But, in all honesty, I think a coaching change at this point is ridiculous. Finish the season and use the time to actively seek replacements and make changes. None of this "i'll give my buddy Rick a call" stuff. Someone suited to the team, not the management.

 

I'm not sure who that is...but I don't want rushed, reactionary decisions being made. Think it through with a solid, long term vision/plan. Not a fly by the seat of your pants ongoing response to shut the crowd up. Plan don't pander.

What will be exciting is if we trade Bo. 
 

don’t maximize his return because they want roster players or top prospects nhl ready over any futures or pieces that are further out 

 

and then Rick doesn’t mesh with JT or Petey or Hughes 

 

we know he’s not gonna bring the best out of OEL right off the bat

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eeeeergh Canucks Third-Line

eeeeergh

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A lot of negativity about Tocchet

I wonder if that is because people just look at his winning record and judge based on that

 

Tocchet was the head coach of two absolutely god awful teams. Truly bottom of the barrel stuff. He had Arizona outplaying their talent for some time. 

 

Im open to it. 

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King Heffy Canucks Hall-of-Famer

King Heffy

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10 minutes ago, eeeeergh said:

A lot of negativity about Tocchet

I wonder if that is because people just look at his winning record and judge based on that

 

Tocchet was the head coach of two absolutely god awful teams. Truly bottom of the barrel stuff. He had Arizona outplaying their talent for some time. 

 

Im open to it. 

I think people are also looking at his criminal record.  There are plenty of options we wouldn't be paying with cigarettes.

 

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DeNiro Canucks Hall-of-Famer

DeNiro

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1 minute ago, King Heffy said:

I think people are also looking at his criminal record.  There are plenty of options we wouldn't be paying with cigarettes.

 

Give it a rest.

 

You act like he murdered someone. He got caught gambling on sports before it could be monetized by big corporations, so they had to make an example out of him.

 

Gretzky, Jordan, Bure, they were all into stuff that was considered shady at the time.

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