[Report] Canucks to part ways with Judd Bracket

[theo5789]

1 hour ago, lmm said:

Hammarstrom got fired?

link?

Sorry I forgot a key word. We are not seeing guys like Hammarstrom getting fired (thus scouts that have done a good job are being retained). I'll correct that.

[Jester13]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, I think Brackett made a power move and it backfired on him big time. Now he's out of a job and is forced to sign elsewhere, which will happen - likely - but there's no way he will get full control of a department and the draft. And... the amount of expectations he now has put on himself to perform to the level that he claims to be at is incredibly high, so you can imagine when a pick doesn't work out and the stress that'll hit him and the microscope he'll be under for a new team.

 

I quite like how Benning mentioned that Brackett has really become a good scout and learned a lot in the last five years, as it's clearly letting everyone know that it's not Brackett that's some saviour scout but rather JB's scouting philosophy that made all the difference, which is accurate and not the other way around that some want to believe.

I'm glad this is all over with. 

[JM_]

1 hour ago, lmm said:

 

Dealing only with your last statement

I agree that Jim is not a deep thinker, but I get the feeling he has some knowledge of the below graphic, but possibly not a full understanding.

He talks of character (integrity) and he praises his team, but there is sonmething in his delivery that leads me to believe that he is trying to keep up with current trends but is not fully bought in.

For those who wish to believe that all is rosy, Jim and Judd both say all the right things, but this split does not seem amicable.

The same could be said about Trevor's leaving.

 

I have never heard the details about Jim leaving Boston, but I wonder if he left the same way Judd is leaving Vancouver?

Jim could have stayed, and maybe been next in line for Chirelli's job, but maybe the writing was on the wall and Jim knew he would not get that opportunity.

I am totally guessing, so I expect to gett flamed for this.

None the less, Boston lost their top 2 hockey ops guys and landed on their feet.

I am also guessing the prospect of losing Benning did not cause this much of a stir in Boston.

 

Back to the graph below,

I feel Jim is caught  somewhere betwenn the two graphs, trying his best to sound like #2 while hiding his desire to maintain control like #1.

 

Dealing

I think a lot of boomer age folks are caught in-between those two. I still haven't heard anything yet in the news or in interviews that makes me need to have a black hat vs a white hat in this whole thing. Still seems to me like two good people simply disagreeing on how an organization is run. 

 

[EastVanCanuck]

On 6/1/2020 at 4:49 PM, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

I think when JB talks about first and second round picks, he’s probably speaking more the rumours flying around on places like Canucks Twitter than to the real disagreement.

 

I highly doubt Brackett was asking for full autonomy over the draft, in addition to his department. If he was asking a guy with Benning’s CV to just zip it and sit on his hands, and let Brackett run the whole show as “Uber-scout,” then there’s probably a padded room somewhere waiting for Judd.

 

I think it’s more likely that Brackett simply outgrew his role. When he was promoted, he went from a little known USHL scout, working part-time for much of his career, to being elevated to the director of amateur scouting. At that time, he must’ve felt he was being handed his dream job. And he probably didn’t care much about issues of “autonomy.”
 

But five years in, and after the successes he’d enjoyed, I’m sure Brackett was looking to expand his role. If for no other reason than to prove he wasn’t merely a good judge of talent (and a good company man), but a guy who can really manage a department, on his own. I think he probably wanted the training wheels taken off. And for management to trust him, when it comes to decisions on personnel and process.
 

I agree that Benning likely involved Judd in new hirings. To what extent, we can’t really know. But it also seems clear that the firings in 2019, and the moves in 2017 and 2015, were mostly (if not entirely) coming from the top, and there hadn’t ever been much in the way of letting Brackett independently pick and choose his own scouts, or for him to really take the lead the process, before making a final group decision, in consultation with upper management, on the scouting staff. 
 

I believe Brackett felt he was ready for a larger role, and probably felt that it was necessary for him to take on more responsibility and control, to prove that he’s not just a good scout, but a guy with real management potential and a candidate for advancement, whether within the Canucks organization, or moving on to join the front office of another team.

 

It’s quite possible this was always heading toward Brackett having to move on, if he wished to continue to advance his career.

 

A guy like Benning, with scouting running in his veins, from a multigenerational family of NHL scouts, with 28 years in the business, and who’s advanced to the highest position possible, on the strength of his record as a scout, this isn’t the type of GM who’s going to just completely hand off a scouting department to his director, and take a backseat role in all decisions involving scouting and the draft. I just can’t imagine JB ever doing that. Scouting and drafting are two of the things he loves most about his job.

 

(And, probably rightly, I could see JB believing that he just knew better than Brackett. It’s not outrageous to think than a guy with JB’s bona fides would be a better director of scouting than any guy working under him. And as GM, it’s Benning prerogative to be as active as he wants in any department within hockey operations, to make any decisions he wants regarding the running of the team, and to expect loyalty and respect for the chain of command. This isn’t to say that I believe JB acted as a dictator or tyrant—or that Brackett was somehow acting improperly or insubordinate—but just that Benning probably felt, and still feels, that it would be a little ridiculous for a guy with his record to not to play a very active role in the Canucks’ amateur scouting).
 

But for Brackett, I would imagine that he was quickly realizing that he was starting to rub against the ceiling of his role within the Vancouver Canucks organization. And Benning either needed to somehow create more space for Brackett to grow, or Judd needed to move on and find somewhere else where he can actually break through.

 

EDIT: small clarification, and probably no one cares about this but me, but when I refer to Judd Brackett as having been a “part-time scout,” I’m not throwing shade, just saying he was scouting part-time, while doing other things with his life. He’s a successful restauranteur, with his brother, owning two restaurants in Harwich Port, Cape Cod, The Port (est 2004) and Ember (est 2008). So even before he started earning a wage from scouting, Judd was doing quite well with his life. Pretty impressive to co-own two successful restaurants by age 31, and then pursue an NHL scouting job in your spare time.

Very reasonable answer.

[Toews]

https://www.sportsnet.ca/650/the-program/trevor-linden-relationship-now-canucks-jim-benning/

 

Linden goes into the scouting process around the 7min mark.

 

In many ways I preferred our organizational structure with Linden and Brackett in the fold. To be honest I didn't consider Linden a big loss as I thought that Benning had earned the right to oversee the entire operation. Cutting out Brackett to give more authority to Weisbrod just makes me shake my head on the other hand. 

[Hogs & Podz]

.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Hogs & Podz

[lmm]

1 hour ago, Jester13 said:

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, I think Brackett made a power move and it backfired on him big time. Now he's out of a job and is forced to sign elsewhere, which will happen - likely - but there's no way he will get full control of a department and the draft. And... the amount of expectations he now has put on himself to perform to the level that he claims to be at is incredibly high, so you can imagine when a pick doesn't work out and the stress that'll hit him and the microscope he'll be under for a new team.

 

I quite like how Benning mentioned that Brackett has really become a good scout and learned a lot in the last five years, as it's clearly letting everyone know that it's not Brackett that's some saviour scout but rather JB's scouting philosophy that made all the difference, which is accurate and not the other way around that some want to believe.

I'm glad this is all over with. 

You are a Jim believer.

I note that you place the blame on Judd but not Jim.

It is possible that Judd finds a new job that he can progress in and the stress you forcast never happens.

also possible that Jim is diminishing Judd's accomplishments because that shades him in a better light.

Jim has a way of speaking that clearly rings true to you, but smells of passive /aggresive  BS to me.

What you stated sounds "sorta" like a compliment, but not really. It sounds condesending to me.

 

If I said"Jester has really progressed in his responses to me in the last 5 years" . You would tell me to stuff my condesending self some place not sunny.

 

Its not really over with until Jim stops losing staff and Judd disappears into the sunset.

If Judd fails, its over.

if Judd succeeds and the Canucks fail, it could be Cam Neely all over again

 

 

[SilentSam]

20 hours ago, lmm said:

 

Dealing only with your last statement

I agree that Jim is not a deep thinker, but I get the feeling he has some knowledge of the below graphic, but possibly not a full understanding.

He talks of character (integrity) and he praises his team, but there is sonmething in his delivery that leads me to believe that he is trying to keep up with current trends but is not fully bought in.

For those who wish to believe that all is rosy, Jim and Judd both say all the right things, but this split does not seem amicable.

The same could be said about Trevor's leaving.

 

I have never heard the details about Jim leaving Boston, but I wonder if he left the same way Judd is leaving Vancouver?

Jim could have stayed, and maybe been next in line for Chirelli's job, but maybe the writing was on the wall and Jim knew he would not get that opportunity.

I am totally guessing, so I expect to gett flamed for this.

None the less, Boston lost their top 2 hockey ops guys and landed on their feet.

I am also guessing the prospect of losing Benning did not cause this much of a stir in Boston.

 

Back to the graph below,

I feel Jim is caught  somewhere betwenn the two graphs, trying his best to sound like #2 while hiding his desire to maintain control like #1.

 

Dealing

...  Crayons..       

 

The great  Brackett VS Benning thread has turned to Crayons..   love it  

 

                                 Meanwhile...  back at the Department of Hockey Analytics..

 

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by SilentSam

[SilentSam]

12 hours ago, lmm said:

You are a Jim believer.

I note that you place the blame on Judd but not Jim.

It is possible that Judd finds a new job that he can progress in and the stress you forcast never happens.

also possible that Jim is diminishing Judd's accomplishments because that shades him in a better light.

Jim has a way of speaking that clearly rings true to you, but smells of passive /aggresive  BS to me.

What you stated sounds "sorta" like a compliment, but not really. It sounds condesending to me.

 

If I said"Jester has really progressed in his responses to me in the last 5 years" . You would tell me to stuff my condesending self some place not sunny.

 

Its not really over with until Jim stops losing staff and Judd disappears into the sunset.

If Judd fails, its over.

if Judd succeeds and the Canucks fail, it could be Cam Neely all over again

 

 

If Judd goes to a franchise that is repeatedly in the Draft Lottery ,  that he has been for the last few years,.. he’ll be fine.

[Jester13]

12 hours ago, lmm said:

You are a Jim believer.

I note that you place the blame on Judd but not Jim.

It is possible that Judd finds a new job that he can progress in and the stress you forcast never happens.

also possible that Jim is diminishing Judd's accomplishments because that shades him in a better light.

Jim has a way of speaking that clearly rings true to you, but smells of passive /aggresive  BS to me.

What you stated sounds "sorta" like a compliment, but not really. It sounds condesending to me.

 

If I said"Jester has really progressed in his responses to me in the last 5 years" . You would tell me to stuff my condesending self some place not sunny.

 

Its not really over with until Jim stops losing staff and Judd disappears into the sunset.

If Judd fails, its over.

if Judd succeeds and the Canucks fail, it could be Cam Neely all over again

 

 

Of course it's possible. I wasn't talking in absolutes. And neither are you with all the ifs.

 

All you have to do is look at Brackett's draft record pre-Benning and post-Benning to see why Jim made those comments. He's letting the hockey world know that Brackett felt a sense of entitlement to have more control than any scout deserves. He's a good scout, since Benning took over. Regardless, I'm not getting into this debate again. It's done with. It's time to move on from the drama over one scout.

[CanadianRugby]

On one hand I'm worried long term, because according to people that know a lot more than I do... Benning has a love of meat n potato guys and Bracket was the guy targeting skill.

 

On the other hand the Canucks are trading their high picks away anyways so who cares?

[Canucks Curse]

5 hours ago, SilentSam said:

...  Crayons..       

 

The great  Brackett VS Benning thread has turned to Crayons..   love it  

 

                                 Meanwhile...  back at the Department of Hockey Analytics..

 

 

love it, even to an infant this whole thing is pretty black and white.

[RWMc1]

19 hours ago, Toews said:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/650/the-program/trevor-linden-relationship-now-canucks-jim-benning/

 

Linden goes into the scouting process around the 7min mark.

 

In many ways I preferred our organizational structure with Linden and Brackett in the fold. To be honest I didn't consider Linden a big loss as I thought that Benning had earned the right to oversee the entire operation. Cutting out Brackett to give more authority to Weisbrod just makes me shake my head on the other hand. 

It was the host smooching up Brackett. Linden actually said that it wasn't just Judd talking up Petterssonn. He also said that you have to trust the guys who see 200 plus games, which to me is the on the ground scouts and not specifically the director.

 

 

And to the he was fired because of the contract offer guys, you could just as easily say that he quit because of his unreasonable demand for autonomy.

[theo5789]

39 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

On one hand I'm worried long term, because according to people that know a lot more than I do... Benning has a love of meat n potato guys and Bracket was the guy targeting skill.

 

On the other hand the Canucks are trading their high picks away anyways so who cares?

That's funny, I believe in one of the draft floor videos, Benning was talking about targeting speed and skill. But I guess how can you trust the man himself right?

[CanadianRugby]

35 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

That's funny, I believe in one of the draft floor videos, Benning was talking about targeting speed and skill. But I guess how can you trust the man himself right?

Speed and skill was targeted when Bracket was promoted.  Again, according to reports.  

[Crabcakes]

27 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

That's funny, I believe in one of the draft floor videos, Benning was talking about targeting speed and skill. But I guess how can you trust the man himself right?

Bang on.  If anybody wants a window into Benning's management style (and I'm talking as much to @lmmas anyone here) just go back and have a look at those trade floor videos and management meeting video's and you can see exactly what his approach is.  And it sure as hell isn't being a dictator!  The man is low on ego and high consulting with his people.  He praises people.....something like atta boy Judd, we got your guy!  In one, the whole group is there going over various alternative picks and you don't even notice Benning until he speaks up and asks something like, who has the best shot? (one of Benning's criteria for player selection).  He is low key but assertive enough to keep the discussion on the essentials.  

 

Benning's approach is actually quite modern.  He's a consensus builder, he empowers his people and listens to their opinion.  That graphic, What Leadership Really Is, I think Benning is all of that.  Integrity, cast a vision, use of influence, use of power, praise your team, self aware, listen first speak last, empathy....they also have perfomance reviews, and accountability.  He may give people lots of rope but in the end, people know who the boss is because it's Benning who makes the final call on things.

 

 

[theo5789]

5 hours ago, CanadianRugby said:

Speed and skill was targeted when Bracket was promoted.  Again, according to reports.  

Well like I said, Benning himself is recorded on the draft floor saying "speed and skill, remember, speed and skill" and this is him talking to Brackett, but I guess these "reports" are more reputable than the GM himself.

[the grinder]

 so with  Brackett he has been with the Canucks for a total of  12 years ,so who did Brackett exactly draft in those 6 years before Benning arrived? any of those players make an impact on the Canucks? So then   Benning arrives   promotes  Judd after firing  a few scouts , and  now Brackett gets all the glory for drafting all the players  ?,then after 5 years Judd demands more control over  the scouting department and its Benning fault for not caving in to the demands of a guy he promoted .  

 

so I guess we can blame those bust draft picks like Juolevi  on Brackett then  ,  right Benning haters  

[Herberts Vasiljevs]

1 hour ago, the grinder said:

 so with  Brackett he has been with the Canucks for a total of  12 years ,so who did Brackett exactly draft in those 6 years before Benning arrived? any of those players make an impact on the Canucks? So then   Benning arrives   promotes  Judd after firing  a few scouts , and  now Brackett gets all the glory for drafting all the players  ?,then after 5 years Judd demands more control over  the scouting department and its Benning fault for not caving in to the demands of a guy he promoted .  

 

so I guess we can blame those bust draft picks like Juolevi  on Brackett then  ,  right Benning haters  

Patrick McNally and Matthew Beattie. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Herberts Vasiljevs

[FairPM]

On 6/2/2020 at 3:02 PM, Jester13 said:

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, I think Brackett made a power move and it backfired on him big time. Now he's out of a job and is forced to sign elsewhere, which will happen - likely - but there's no way he will get full control of a department and the draft. And... the amount of expectations he now has put on himself to perform to the level that he claims to be at is incredibly high, so you can imagine when a pick doesn't work out and the stress that'll hit him and the microscope he'll be under for a new team.

 

I quite like how Benning mentioned that Brackett has really become a good scout and learned a lot in the last five years, as it's clearly letting everyone know that it's not Brackett that's some saviour scout but rather JB's scouting philosophy that made all the difference, which is accurate and not the other way around that some want to believe.

I'm glad this is all over with. 

This has all the makings of a slow drip PR campaign that is pro bracket and anti Benning. Who says bracket is responsible for all the good picks? (those media types that were dripped that info by a particular party) .  Bracket reminds of the office guy who takes the credit for all the office successes even when they weren't solely his. His ascension to prominence only occurred after working with Benning. No coincidence there!