[poll/discussion] Are you OK if next year is a small step back?

[The Lock]

It's going to be a step back for a lot of teams against the cap and a step forward for a lot of teams not against the cap.

 

Therefore, we may actually be alright even if it seems like we take a step back.

[I.Am.Ironman]

10 minutes ago, Lazurus said:

How? Two ways here, how to make them sign reasonable deals? This will the last year for awhile to cash in, the flat cap will discout aging players much faster now that demand will go down after next season.Team's that were on the cusp will go all in next  year because most will have to retool their rosters to fit the covid era thing if it carries on.

I would consider a reasonable deal in the same ball park of what both Tanev and Toffoli were making this year. If they ask for too much then see ya later. But by most accounts both players want to remain with Vancouver.

[JM_]

10 minutes ago, VegasCanuck said:

For GM's who are able to be patient this off season, there are going to be lots of deals out there.

 

Every team that is in a position to compete for the cup, are in a cap crunch and have issues. There are going to be a number of players that teams have no choice but to walk away from.

I think so too, and of the 1 year variety. 

[-AJ-]

I don't see how it's possible to have a team as deep as the 2019-20 one given the cap constraints.

[Coconuts]

If it means extending our window, sure 

[The Lock]

37 minutes ago, VegasCanuck said:

For GM's who are able to be patient this off season, there are going to be lots of deals out there.

 

Every team that is in a position to compete for the cup, are in a cap crunch and have issues. There are going to be a number of players that teams have no choice but to walk away from.

You know what I would actually do (and this probably won't happen nor would it fly right away for most of CDC)? I would not sign ANY of our UFA's. Then wait. Then sign UFAs for less than what we'd sign Tanev, Toffoli, and Markstrom for. It would be risky as who knows at this point really how much better of a deal each contract would be, but we might actually find it puts us forward even.

[VegasCanuck]

3 minutes ago, The Lock said:

You know what I would actually do (and this probably won't happen nor would it fly right away for most of CDC)? I would not sign ANY of our UFA's. Then wait. Then sign UFAs for less than what we'd sign Tanev, Toffoli, and Markstrom for. It would be risky as who knows at this point really how much better of a deal each contract would be, but we might actually find it puts us forward even.

Its a good consideration and I wouldn't disagree with you. For any team looking to pull these guys in, will generally mean that there is someone that they have to move or walk away from.

 

[Phil_314]

If by take a step back you mean roster wise, i.e. give up bigger fish free agents (Tanev, Marky, maybe Toffoli) while bringing in lesser/ under the radar names to fill roles then I'm definitely down.  e.g. if Marky and Tanev are replaced by Greiss and DeMelo but we save a couple million dollars then 100%.  Same with giving up winning pedigree in Pearson by replacing him e.g. with Hoglander, and trading (name alone, he's viewed as at least a 2nd-3rd round pick on other teams' fan forums) Jake to sweeten Beagle or Gaud + Loui to recalibrate while losing some depth, then yes sign me up.  Gotta focus on strengthening the team, since this past season they were very much carried by the top players (top PP unit + Boeser + Markstrom).        

[Junkyard Dog]

Eh we lose 2 or Toffoli/Marky/Tanev we're probably gonna be in the bubble again. We just don't have enough scoring talent, D talent and it takes a while to develop youngsters.

 

Marky was the main reason we made the playoffs and made up for a lot of glaring mistakes defensively. Demko is probably not ready for a starters role since last time we was starter during the regular season when Marky was hurt before Covid he crapped the bed. He'd need a 1B to share the load.

 

Tanev is one of our most defensively responsible players and allows Hughes to play his game. Take him away it'll hurt Hughes and the PK. Hughes would hate losing Tanev.

 

With the lack of secondary scoring when we need it Toffoli is a good RW option in the top 6.

 

I would like to see two of them back, preferably Tanev and Toffoli. Then acquire a solid top 6 defenseman. We would have to shed cap though(Sutter/Baer/Benn) and perhaps let go of a RFA or two (Virtanen/Stecher).

[MikeBossy]

I think we need to be realistic and admit the boys over-achieved this year and its was due to the 24 team play in system. It worked to our benefit and while we are giving up a 1st round pick for JT it could have been a lot worse. i am ok with a step back this year if in the process we can free up some cap space as others have suggested. If Loui could acquire a mysterious rash or find another way to Robidas Island I'd be a happy man.

[khay]

We are not at a point where we can guarantee playoffs year in and year out. We don't quite have a mature roster yet.

 

So if we lose Tanev + Marky for the purpose of freeing up cap for future seasons, then I wouldn't be mad if we miss the playoffs.

 

But I think with the our star players maturing, I think we will make the playoffs. And if we miss, who knows if we might pull a Dallas or Winnipeg and win a lottery to draft a Heiskanen or a Laine.

 

With so much economic uncertainty surrounding COVID-19, I wouldn't be against it if the team doesn't improve this offseason. 

 

We can use next season to evaluate what we've got in our prospects. If it turns out to be not enough, we can then go and sign players the season after.

[Maniwaki Canuck]

Agree that a step back is likely and not something to freak out about if it ends up happening.  The wild card is the free agent market this year though.  Lots of players available at a moment when not every team is going to want to spend.  There might be bargains available that would allow us to meet or exceed this year's results.  Not betting on it but not ruling it out either, and it's what a shrewd GM would be trying to do.

[Heretic]

[IBatch]

This thread is a drum I’ve been beating for awhile now...as in yes don’t mortgage our future or be fooled by our recent playoff success.   Next season is the actual cap crunch one too.   21 million for EP, QHs, plus replacing a top six LW, a third line C and a top four LHD...definitely not enough.   Many posters have shown how it’s possible to sign all three with a few bodies going out , maybe a buyout or two and maybe a cap dump or two or maybe a trade or two.    It’s impossible to come out with the same team we had this playoffs and all three signed.   What worries me more then anything is how this sets us up for later.

 

Buyouts just make it harder for longer when all your guys are 1-2 years away from done anyways.   Yes some will need to be replaced which is why we need our remaining pool intact.  Plus some of the cash dumps are taking money away from that 21 million next year .... Pearson, Sutter in particular.   I keep saying Pearson just to illustrate we can make it work but really would prefer we don’t go there and commit to two of them at the most.   Take one out and it’s not such a dire circumstance.  Lose a little depth - yes we were always going to regardless.   Leivo, maybe Fanta or Stetcher.   
 

Tend to agree with both Ken Campbell and Larkin that JB needs to do something drastic rather then try and shoe horn all these guys in.   Campbell said that’s let Markstrom walk - I agree with that’s a low risk high reward take - Larkin says we need a true number two, not a top four - but legit number two - I agree with this too, suggests we trade BB for this guy - if the return was a young guy we could keep on the team for just as long then I could stomach that.   This isn’t Dumba BTW, Ekblad is though - with upside to be a Weber type as he peaks, as in a true minute munching number one even.

 

Personally feel the team will have to use free agency to fix our defense.   Tanev isn’t a fix.   Dobber Hockey has his by the numbers value at 3.2 - that’s what happens when you only play 69-70 games three times in your career.   Edler isn’t a long term solution either.   AP is going to market and he could be a huge help.    Much rather have him then Tanev and TT.   And go with Demko plus a 1a, saving the rest for next season.   Prefer Hamilton actually but don’t know if he’s going to be available.   AP will be for awhile anyways.   That would be a bold move for sure.   Tanev is tempting at 4 x 4 as well but more is too much.   

The only way all three will fit is taking serious discounts.   And can’t see that happening with any of them except maybe Tanev - but even his “discount” might not be close to what some feel his actual value is (Dobber). 
 

Edit:  As a bonus by going with only one or maybe two of these three guys the team gets a Covid “gap” year to see what they’ve got coming up that might be worth protecting.   OJ, Rafferty and Lind.   And if we make the playoffs then great.  If not we get another lottery ticket that could be used like we did with Miller to a still cash strapped team - or just draft a top D prospect.   We will need one player a draft that can come in and make an impact when our window is opened more then just a crack.   Won’t blame JB for going for it - but do think it could backfire - and don’t think we are winning a cup next season..

Edited September 23, 2020 by IBatch

[JM_]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

The only way all three will fit is taking serious discounts.  

there seems to be some thinking that there will be a lot of 1 year deals out there this year as well, since a lot of guys don't want to sign for term in such a down year.

 

Its pretty clear from yesterdays "news" about Jim not burning the future to move Loui that Jim isn't looking desperately to re-sign all of our current guys. 

 

If Jim just re-signs TT, then there's about 11 mil for our RFA F's and a grittier d upgrade on Stech, and a backup goalie once Baer and Loui are sent down. Thin but possible.  Maybe a bit more room if Ferland is on LTIR.

 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Robert Long

[IBatch]

27 minutes ago, Robert Long said:

there seems to be some thinking that there will be a lot of 1 year deals out there this year as well, since a lot of guys don't want to sign for term in such a down year.

 

Its pretty clear from yesterdays "news" about Jim not burning the future to move Loui that Jim isn't looking desperately to re-sign all of our current guys. 

 

If Jim just re-signs TT, then there's about 11 mil for our RFA F's and a grittier d upgrade on Stech, and a backup goalie once Baer and Loui are sent down. Thin but possible.  Maybe a bit more room if Ferland is on LTIR.

 

RL if it was me I’d be working tirelessly on making sure Vancouver is in one massively favourable spot cap wise next off season.   Our defense needs a complete overhaul around QHs and Myers.   Those two are the only safe long term guys.   Edler and Tanev love them both - but their best hockey is behind them and unless they are our bottom pairing can’t see us competing for a cup before they are done.    Straight up don’t think they are worth 10-11 million.    
 

JB would be better off letting all three go to free agency and play the waiting game to see how things shake out.   Go after 1a goalie, and replace both Stetcher and Tanev with comparables at a discount very short term deals.   Like you said a lot of UFAs next season.   And this season RFAs won’t get qualified too.  Why not position ourselves to take full advantage of that?   We have a ton of cap shedding over the next two seasons Let’s it shed.   Maybe weaponize some of it this year too.  
 

Let the team sink or swim next season - if we can make the playoffs without TT, JM and Tanev then great - one or two of our rookies made an impact.   If not just as good we just pulled a Dallas, TB, COL and added another key piece for later (Heiskanen, Makar, Point - ok he was a second but you get it) and we will for sure need that. 
 

Next year with an extra 8 million or so left over from this year - plus the 21 coming off the books we could look to make some massive changes on our defense and afford both QHs and EP on long term deals.   Weaponizing might have also born some fruit in this years draft.   
 

The only thing that interests me a lot with this years crop of UFAs is AP.  He’s >>> more important to our team then TT and Tanev combined.   Our RW is stacked with Podz coming up, BB and JV, even Leivo maybe if re-upped.   Our RHD has Myers and that’s it.    
 

BTW Shattenkirk at 3 is  better then Stetcher at 3.   And Ceci is close to Tanev and Hamonic maybe a little better all around player (he hits too) - nobody is giving them 5 million.  
 

Hate to force the team to sink or swim but really do think this is then best approach.   Team needs some bold moves and not more of the same, especially at the expense of our cap and depth.  Our core isn’t enough (yet).

 

Leivo and Fatenburg were excellent value this year, as was JV.   And Schenn before that.   There will be a ton of guys like that available again this, more then ever really.   
 

Definition of insanity and all that.  Yes we were one goal away from the conference finals - two probably.   That was ALL Demko.   TT did nothing except his first game returning.  Pearson was a pussycat against Vegas.   Our core beat St Louis, our depth beat MIN.  
 

I love this team.   But our defense isn’t going to cut it.  We need cap space to fix it unless OJ by some miracle is Vlasic 2.0.

[JM_]

6 minutes ago, IBatch said:

RL if it was me I’d be working tirelessly on making sure Vancouver is in one massively favourable spot cap wise next off season.   Our defense needs a complete overhaul around QHs and Myers.   Those two are the only safe long term guys.   Edler and Tanev love them both - but their best hockey is behind them and unless they are our bottom pairing can’t see us competing for a cup before they are done.    Straight up don’t think they are worth 10-11 million.    
 

JB would be better off letting all three go to free agency and play the waiting game to see how things shake out.   Go after 1a goalie, and replace both Stetcher and Tanev with comparables at a discount very short term deals.   Like you said a lot of UFAs next season.   And this season RFAs won’t get qualified too.  Why not position ourselves to take full advantage of that?   We have a ton of cap shedding over the next two seasons Let’s it shed.   Maybe weaponize some of it this year too.  
 

Let the team sink or swim next season - if we can make the playoffs without TT, JM and Tanev then great - one or two of our rookies made an impact.   If not just as good we just pulled a Dallas, TB, COL and added another key piece for later (Heiskanen, Makar, Point - ok he was a second but you get it) and we will for sure need that. 
 

Next year with an extra 8 million or so left over from this year - plus the 21 coming off the books we could look to make some massive changes on our defense and afford both QHs and EP on long term deals.   Weaponizing might have also born some fruit in this years draft.   
 

The only thing that interests me a lot with this years crop of UFAs is AP.  He’s >>> more important to our team then TT and Tanev combined.   Our RW is stacked with Podz coming up, BB and JV, even Leivo maybe if re-upped.   Our RHD has Myers and that’s it.    
 

BTW Shattenkirk at 3 is  better then Stetcher at 3.   And Ceci is close to Tanev and Hamonic maybe a little better all around player (he hits too) - nobody is giving them 5 million.  
 

Hate to force the team to sink or swim but really do think this is then best approach.   Team needs some bold moves and not more of the same, especially at the expense of our cap and depth.  Our core isn’t enough (yet).

 

Leivo and Fatenburg were excellent value this year, as was JV.   And Schenn before that.   There will be a ton of guys like that available again this, more then ever really.   
 

Definition of insanity and all that.  Yes we were one goal away from the conference finals - two probably.   That was ALL Demko.   TT did nothing except his first game returning.  Pearson was a pussycat against Vegas.   Our core beat St Louis, our depth beat MIN.  
 

I love this team.   But our defense isn’t going to cut it.  We need cap space to fix it unless OJ by some miracle is Vlasic 2.0.

Jim has shown he'll walk from guys like Hamhuis when he thinks the team needs to get younger and/or more competitive, and I suspect thats where this is going. 

 

It really was the young guys carrying this team in the playoffs, with some solid bottom 6 play. We still have that bottom 6 btw.

 

We'll see what opportunities come up but when you look at Tanev for 5x5 e.g..... dunno, I love the guy but that scares me. 

 

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Robert Long said:

Jim has shown he'll walk from guys like Hamhuis when he thinks the team needs to get younger and/or more competitive, and I suspect thats where this is going. 

 

It really was the young guys carrying this team in the playoffs, with some solid bottom 6 play. We still have that bottom 6 btw.

 

We'll see what opportunities come up but when you look at Tanev for 5x5 e.g..... dunno, I love the guy but that scares me. 

 

For sure.   Yes we have the same bottom six next year.   Motte deserves a promotion.   Mac can step in.   Then the shedding continues - Sutter and Pearson ... I would call Pearson a middle six player.   A lot of EN points.  JV and AG are fine guys to work into our support players.   And Pearson could be traded and we could re-unite the triple BBBs instead of buying Bear out.   He proved he’s not done last season.   Better IMO then buying him out.   That would shed almost 4 more off the payroll and give us back our second this draft, or maybe another for the following one.   
 

Leivo could be signed one year at a value deal if he’s recovered fine.   Or like you mentioned, there will be a large line of guys hoping for a contract like him.  
 

On defense Stetcher doesn’t have to be qualified.   AHL star Rafferty is definitely worth a look.   I’d re-up Fanta to push him and let Stecher go.   Dobber has Fanta at less then 1 million next season on a one year deal.    OJ looks to be pushing on the L side so that makes Benn expendable too but we only need to let Stecher walk (need some depth).  
 

Without getting into buyouts or cap dumps that cost us money, there is a significant amount of cap that could be in play this year.   That’s part of what I’m trying to say.  I’m completely against buyouts or trying to dump Sutter, Bear, LE or anyone that will cost us retention or picks or prospects etc.  Our entire bottom six with the exception of Ferland is up or gone in the upcoming season or the next.   The price is MAYBE one off year - but not the end of the world either.    Technically if JB is brave enough, we could shed cap, add picks - plug the holes with cheaper contracts (Tanev, Markstrom, Stetcher, Pearson) and swap one out like TO did with Marleau and re-set the rebuild for a huge boost in a year or two.    Podz isn’t enough. 
 

Seems pretty radical but we need a radical off season.   I don’t expect JB to do anything like this but pray he doesn’t sign all three at a large cost to futures.  We’d be doomed to mediocrity.

 

There won’t likely be gate income anyways next year so just another prime reason this is a huge opportunity for him to take advantage instead of being a victim to it.  

 

 I was so happy during the playoffs ... Demko’s play started to make me believe we were going to win despite all the flaws (and for sure they were exposed).    I for one would have rather been on the other side of it - was both some of the best games I’ve watched and some of the toughest games I’ve watched.    Depth in C we had - we won’t long term.   Need to work on our D.  It’s a glaring issue.    To do that we need cap space. 
 

Edit:  What I’m trying to say is next playoffs aren’t as important to the long term scene as a much improved defense, a better cap situation, and more prospects coming up when our actual window is up.

 

What would you prefer?  A second, maybe two firsts including maybe a lottery ticket, loads of money to sign EP and QHs to reasonable long term deals or a lot less depth, retention, lose JV and a guy like Lind/Rafferty or Hogs and a second and third to shoe horn Markstrom, TT and Tanev into the lineup and then have a way tougher cap situation next season?  I know what I prefer. 

Edited September 23, 2020 by IBatch

[JM_]

16 minutes ago, IBatch said:

For sure.   Yes we have the same bottom six next year.   Motte deserves a promotion.   Mac can step in.   Then the shedding continues - Sutter and Pearson ... I would call Pearson a middle six player.   A lot of EN points.  JV and AG are fine guys to work into our support players.   And Pearson could be traded and we could re-unite the triple BBBs instead of buying Bear out.   He proved he’s not done last season.   Better IMO then buying him out.   That would shed almost 4 more off the payroll and give us back our second this draft, or maybe another for the following one.   
 

 

 

What would you prefer?  A second, maybe two firsts including maybe a lottery ticket, loads of money to sign EP and QHs to reasonable long term deals or a lot less depth, retention, lose JV and a guy like Lind/Rafferty or Hogs and a second and third to shoe horn Markstrom, TT and Tanev into the lineup and then have a way tougher cap situation next season?  I know what I prefer. 

I never considered Baer coming back to the lineup. I wonder how Green would handle that?

 

My preference is Loui retiring but I think he has other ideas. I could potentially stomach the idea of losing a high pick to shed Loui if it meant someone elite added to the d group but that probably isn't in the card this year. 

[IBatch]

13 minutes ago, Robert Long said:

I never considered Baer coming back to the lineup. I wonder how Green would handle that?

 

My preference is Loui retiring but I think he has other ideas. I could potentially stomach the idea of losing a high pick to shed Loui if it meant someone elite added to the d group but that probably isn't in the card this year. 

Bear proved last year he isn’t damaged goods - the AHL is a tough league.   TG for sure played the better player - that said Boeser had his best season on a line with him.   I was disappointed with Pearson in the Vegas series - he was completely a non-factor - Bear has a higher skill-set if your not going to be physical when it matters don’t see any reason not to make the switch....in this case TT makes some sense 

Edited September 23, 2020 by IBatch