Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[mangosteens]

58 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Good troll attempt.  He didn't "work his way out of NHL".   He is developing as a professional hockey player and the best environment for him this past season was AHL and not NHL where the latter team was a rudderless ship and he would have had limited minutes and confidence crushing experiences.   Learning how to play like a professional versus a man among boys per WHL was the challenge and Green, who appears to be nothing of a spin doctor at all, sounds very happy with the progress Jake made.

 

Anyway, good trolling attempt!

Yes he didn't work his way out of the NHL, but even you need to admit that his future as an NHL regular looks much less certain now than it did 12 months ago.  Virtanen has not developed at the same rate as his peers in the 2014 draft class.

[Rollieo Del Fuego]

Jake may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer...but he is malleable and even the dullest knives just need time and effort to grind out a sharp edge.

One more year with Green should see Jake go from the bottom of the 4th line guys too a classic 3rd line checking/energy guy who can score.

 

Jake has too much talent in his shot, his skating and his "reverse hitting'' ability, etc., etc.,...not to be a full time NHL'er ....it is just which line.....

 

...my guess for his ceiling is the 3rd line right now but if he hits the 3rd line by the end of this season it will obviously mean his ceiling is at least 2nd liner....kids 20 years old and probably been coddled by Mama too much, so a "young 20", but he has the heart, I think he will be fine.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Rollieo Del Fuego

[Rob_Zepp]

18 minutes ago, mangosteens said:

Yes he didn't work his way out of the NHL, but even you need to admit that his future as an NHL regular looks much less certain now than it did 12 months ago.  Virtanen has not developed at the same rate as his peers in the 2014 draft class.

I don't agree actually.  I don't compare him to anyone but himself.   He came out of junior without a clue how to be challenged or how to play professional hockey.  His man-boy body, speed and general physical presence landed him a job out of training camp he never should have been given in hindsight but even then given the low minutes he gave strong hints in the offensive zone of his good hands and smart decisions - but in other end of the rink was out of his depth.   He is much closer to the NHL as far as sticking after having had a year in AHL under Green - much closer.   So, no, I don't agree.   Oh, and he has no "peers" until they all have had sufficient seasons to compare.   Nick Lidstrom, three years after being drafted was still not in NHL so were his peers that far ahead of who is now in top three all time discussion?    

 

Patience.  This place does not know of this word.

[Odd.]

2 hours ago, TimberWolf said:

This ball hockey thing reminds me of a story

 

I'll be showing my age here but a million years ago I was in a ball hockey league over a summer and Petr Nedved showed up on a team against us. Not sure if he played the season for them or just a game but there he was.

 

We tortured him out there, taking the frustration of not being Jagr out on him, or the fact he wasn't living up to his draft pick at all up to that point.  I personally laid him out with a shoulder in his sternum. (he did score on us, though) He got mad and ejected from the game trying to retaliate.

 

Anyways, the next season was his best as a Nuck with a whopping 38 goals and ridiculous 25.5% shooting%

 

So maybe ball hockey is a wake up call after all?

I know this was a long time ago, but you're a POS for doing that.

[mangosteens]

3 hours ago, TimberWolf said:

This ball hockey thing reminds me of a story

 

I'll be showing my age here but a million years ago I was in a ball hockey league over a summer and Petr Nedved showed up on a team against us. Not sure if he played the season for them or just a game but there he was.

 

We tortured him out there, taking the frustration of not being Jagr out on him, or the fact he wasn't living up to his draft pick at all up to that point.  I personally laid him out with a shoulder in his sternum. (he did score on us, though) He got mad and ejected from the game trying to retaliate.

 

Anyways, the next season was his best as a Nuck with a whopping 38 goals and ridiculous 25.5% shooting%

 

So maybe ball hockey is a wake up call after all?

Nedved was known for playing ball hockey and showing up at local lacrosse boxes to join in pick-up games of street hockey and roller hockey. He really loved the sport.

[EternalCanuckFan]

I hope Jake can enjoy a high level of play of ball hockey this summer.  The thread about Travis Green's interview with Rick Dhaliwal noted that some of the other prospects are training in the city right now so hopefully Jake can join that group for some workouts.  While I agree that the city needs to be patient with Jake, this year's training camp is critical for him (I think).  Even if Jake plays well in camp but eventually ends up with the Comets to start the year, I think that will be a great sign for his career.

[Toews]

2 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Because they are impatient and don't understand the process of developing power forwards and that not every player has the same development path....well, all that for starters plus much more.   Those who are "disappointed" are probably the same who like to do forensic drafting to point out what players were missed - this looks bad for EVERY team in the NHL over time as no one has a crystal ball.   Here is the list of the teams that have gone to a Cup final in the past ten years:

 

Calling a 20 year old power forward a disappointment is a strange thing when he made strides.   I assume any team not listed above or any team above that didn't win a cup also "disappointed" with all their players too.

Virtanen has shown very little progress since being drafted. Just about everyone expected more from him than being in his draft + 3 year than putting up less than 0.3 ppg in the AHL. Every hockey player makes strides at that age. Cole Cassels made some strides this year as well, I don't expect him to be a NHLer despite that. Its quite telling that the best that people can say about Virtanen's season is that he lost a few pounds and began to take his training seriously. This is something that many of his peers figured out before they were even drafted.

 

Right now the Canucks have stated that they want him to play the style of a power forward. He has also stated that he wants to be that player, but which elements of his game actually represent a power forward's game? Now the term "power forward" is subjective but to me power forwards drive to the net, they are able to use their larger frame to win puck battles and create space for their teammates. They are also able to use their physicality on the forecheck to cause turnovers and play a strong cycle game. How many of those qualities does Jake have? He scored the majority of his points on the rush. His cycle game is not up to the mark. His play along the boards is getting better but I still wouldn't call it a strength yet. He used to use his speed to close the gap quickly on defenders to try and create turnovers but he has curtailed that part of his game significantly. If management wants him to be a power forward then he shouldn't and won't be in the NHL next year because his game is not that of a traditional power forward.. Calling him a "disappointment" at this stage is like saying "Fire is hot". I see no issue with that, he is a disappointment thus far.

 

Disappointment =/ Bust. There is still hope for Jake which is why he isn't referred to as "bust" by most people.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Toews

[TimberWolf]

1 hour ago, Odd. said:

I know this was a long time ago, but you're a POS for doing that.

 

Well if you want to head back to 1992 and try and stop me, be my guest. I tagged him with a legal hit, though. 

 

keep in mind I got as good as I gave game in and out. Was a league game, not some goofs in a lacrosse box (though I did plenty of that through my life too)

[TimberWolf]

1 hour ago, mangosteens said:

Nedved was known for playing ball hockey and showing up at local lacrosse boxes to join in pick-up games of street hockey and roller hockey. He really loved the sport.

 

Never knew that. We thought he was some kind of ringer.

 

If anyone cares I remember we totally lost that game

[Rob_Zepp]

1 hour ago, Toews said:

Virtanen has shown very little progress since being drafted. Just about everyone expected more from him than being in his draft + 3 year than putting up less than 0.3 ppg in the AHL. Every hockey player makes strides at that age. Cole Cassels made some strides this year as well, I don't expect him to be a NHLer despite that. Its quite telling that the best that people can say about Virtanen's season is that he lost a few pounds and began to take his training seriously. This is something that many of his peers figured out before they were even drafted.

 

Right now the Canucks have stated that they want him to play the style of a power forward. He has also stated that he wants to be that player, but which elements of his game actually represent a power forward's game? Now the term "power forward" is subjective but to me power forwards drive to the net, they are able to use their larger frame to win puck battles and create space for their teammates. They are also able to use their physicality on the forecheck to cause turnovers and play a strong cycle game. How many of those qualities does Jake have? He scored the majority of his points on the rush. His cycle game is not up to the mark. His play along the boards is getting better but I still wouldn't call it a strength yet. He used to use his speed to close the gap quickly on defenders to try and create turnovers but he has curtailed that part of his game significantly. If management wants him to be a power forward then he shouldn't and won't be in the NHL next year because his game is not that of a traditional power forward.. Calling him a "disappointment" at this stage is like saying "Fire is hot". I see no issue with that, he is a disappointment thus far.

 

Disappointment =/ Bust. There is still hope for Jake which is why he isn't referred to as "bust" by most people.

You, like many, is making this all about PPG.   He was NOT put to AHL to put up points but to learn how to play hockey at a professional level and for him it was the 100' of rink he wasn't used to seeing.   His shots on goal and shot attempts were very high on a per minute basis but he was there to learn other things.   Reading things into points at AHL level would mean that so many players currently in NHL should not be there and so many in AHL should be.   

 

I am very much looking forward to a time about three or four years from now when he is a solid top 6 in the NHL and I can mine these posts as a way to teach patience to those expecting very 18 to 20 year old to be McDavid or equivalent.   

[dpn1]

I actually bought the AHL Live package this past season and really enjoyed watching it.  The only thing I didn't like was the varied quality of the broadcasts. Sometime the picture was good sometimes, not so good.  In the last 25 games or so Jake was snake bit with regards to goal but he looked good . At times it almost looked like he was too fast for the AHL.  He would start in his own end and ramp it up and by the time he hit the opposing teams blueline his line mates (except for maybe Valk) 4 strides behind him.Watching him fly down the wing with speed was quite something to watch.  The one thing that empress me  was how he skated just hard coming back as he did going on the offence.  Also the announcers commented for the last month Virtanen was one of the best players.

[Toews]

10 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

You, like many, is making this all about PPG.   He was NOT put to AHL to put up points but to learn how to play hockey at a professional level and for him it was the 100' of rink he wasn't used to seeing.   His shots on goal and shot attempts were very high on a per minute basis but he was there to learn other things.   Reading things into points at AHL level would mean that so many players currently in NHL should not be there and so many in AHL should be.   

 

I am very much looking forward to a time about three or four years from now when he is a solid top 6 in the NHL and I can mine these posts as a way to teach patience to those expecting very 18 to 20 year old to be McDavid or equivalent.   

Production is always going to be an important factor when you judge a player. Someone on HF went through all the first round picks who made the NHL in recent years and there were only two players who made it with production similar to Virtanen, one of them is Ben Eager. Now some will say that it isn't fair to reduce the sample size to just first round picks because you ignore players like Burrows, who was in the ECHL and made his way up. But like someone else pointed out in this thread earlier Burrows improved by leaps and bounds every year. He was certainly not on anyone's radar as an 18 year old. Most first round picks are quite noticeably ahead of other players in their draft season, it is then up to them to continue improving. If you stagnate then other players will most certainly end up passing you. Ideally you want your prospects to be an upwards trajectory, improving every single year. This is the reason why if I had to choose between a guy like Adam Gaudette and Virtanen, I take Gaudette every single time.

 

Regardless you ignored the rest of my post simply to focus on production. I certainly did not "make this all about PPG", but even if I had it is just an disingenuous to say that production is not even relevant when judging a player. I watched quite a few Utica games last year and made sure to focus on Virtanen so its not like I am going off of a stat sheet. There were so many instances where I saw Jake flying down the wing with a D maintaining gap control and keeping him to the outside and Jake would put a wrister on net with no one crashing the net, which the goalie would easily parry away. I question how many of his shot attempts came from legitimate scoring chances as to me the only time he really looked dangerous was when he got the jump on a defenseman and was able to then exploit the difference in speed. This is why I said most of his points came off of the rush. If Jake is going to be a power forward that needs to change, he needs to start crashing the net. He needs to use his size to carry the puck down low, protect it and use his cycling game.

 

The bolded is meaningless to me. Virtanen could have an epiphany and become a star in the coming years and it still won't change the fact that in the first three years that he was drafted he was a disappointment due to his lack of progression. Unlike you I don't have a crystal ball that tells me that Jake will be a top 6 player a few years from now. Throughout this discussion I have commented on the player he is right now and not the player he will be in the future. I do not like to make definitive statements about prospects. I have been following amateur and pro hockey for long enough to know that such statements don't work out well in the long run.

[saucypass]

1 hour ago, Toews said:

Production is always going to be an important factor when you judge a player. Someone on HF went through all the first round picks who made the NHL in recent years and there were only two players who made it with production similar to Virtanen, one of them is Ben Eager. Now some will say that it isn't fair to reduce the sample size to just first round picks because you ignore players like Burrows, who was in the ECHL and made his way up. But like someone else pointed out in this thread earlier Burrows improved by leaps and bounds every year. He was certainly not on anyone's radar as an 18 year old. Most first round picks are quite noticeably ahead of other players in their draft season, it is then up to them to continue improving. If you stagnate then other players will most certainly end up passing you. Ideally you want your prospects to be an upwards trajectory, improving every single year. This is the reason why if I had to choose between a guy like Adam Gaudette and Virtanen, I take Gaudette every single time.

 

Regardless you ignored the rest of my post simply to focus on production. I certainly did not "make this all about PPG", but even if I had it is just an disingenuous to say that production is not even relevant when judging a player. I watched quite a few Utica games last year and made sure to focus on Virtanen so its not like I am going off of a stat sheet. There were so many instances where I saw Jake flying down the wing with a D maintaining gap control and keeping him to the outside and Jake would put a wrister on net with no one crashing the net, which the goalie would easily parry away. I question how many of his shot attempts came from legitimate scoring chances as to me the only time he really looked dangerous was when he got the jump on a defenseman and was able to then exploit the difference in speed. This is why I said most of his points came off of the rush. If Jake is going to be a power forward that needs to change, he needs to start crashing the net. He needs to use his size to carry the puck down low, protect it and use his cycling game.

 

The bolded is meaningless to me. Virtanen could have an epiphany and become a star in the coming years and it still won't change the fact that in the first three years that he was drafted he was a disappointment due to his lack of progression. Unlike you I don't have a crystal ball that tells me that Jake will be a top 6 player a few years from now. Throughout this discussion I have commented on the player he is right now and not the player he will be in the future. I do not like to make definitive statements about prospects. I have been following amateur and pro hockey for long enough to know that such statements don't work out well in the long run.

So very true. +1. Still doesn't change the fact we want him to succeed. Those who are calling him a bust are trolls. Objective analysis doesn't lump us into the same category. 

[canucklehead44]

I see two definitions of a bust. One is a player who fails to play at least 200 NHL games, the other is a player who fails to live up to expectations. Stefan for example had a decent NHL career and finished 15th in his draft class in scoring. He consistently finished around 4/5 on the Thrashers in scoring. However, as a first overall pick he is seen as a huge bust. 

What were the expectations for Jake? Ballpark of 25 goals, 20 assists per year? 1st/2nd line tweener? Production isn't everything, I just don't see him hitting those levels if he hasn't been able to do it in the AHL. If Jake were drafted 26th instead of 6th I think we would be fine seeing him turn into 3rd/4th line tweener. But if he can barely crack 10 goals per year it is hard to not use the B label for a #6 pick. Too early to call it yet, but there is certainly reason to be concerned. 

Long story short, Craig Button hit the nail on the head ranking him 43rd overall. He has the potential and the upside, but his results fall more in line with the 2nd rounders than the 1st rounders. 

Edited May 20, 2017 by canucklehead44

[Jester13]

JV has NHL speed and an elite shot to go with his better-than-average size. His huge lower body will make him very hard to hit, and will let him hit very hard.

 

He will be just fine. 

[dpn1]

I find it hard to too be disappointed with 18 to 20 year old draft picks.  In the end its a bit of a "Crap shoot) .  Sometimes we get lucky with drafting.  We don't always see it right away but it will come.  Look at Bo.  We have a future captain who out performed the Sedins in his first play-off experience.  We have an incredible leader and future captain.  We now build around him and we will get our Stanley Cup.  Jake will be a big part of our team in a middle 6 position.  A big plus for him as well is that he can play both sides.

Edited May 20, 2017 by dpn1

[WeneedLumme]

20 hours ago, Odd. said:

I know this was a long time ago, but you're a POS for doing that.

From looking at most of his posts he hasn't changed much.

[Toews]

On 5/19/2017 at 11:28 PM, TimberWolf said:

This ball hockey thing reminds me of a story

 

I'll be showing my age here but a million years ago I was in a ball hockey league over a summer and Petr Nedved showed up on a team against us. Not sure if he played the season for them or just a game but there he was.

 

We tortured him out there, taking the frustration of not being Jagr out on him, or the fact he wasn't living up to his draft pick at all up to that point.  I personally laid him out with a shoulder in his sternum. (he did score on us, though) He got mad and ejected from the game trying to retaliate.

 

Anyways, the next season was his best as a Nuck with a whopping 38 goals and ridiculous 25.5% shooting%

 

So maybe ball hockey is a wake up call after all?

I hope at the very least reading this story makes you feel some guilt.

 

http://www.foxsports.com/nhl/story/how-jaromir-jagr-may-have-manipulated-the-1990-nhl-draft-in-his-favor-090116

 

The Canucks knew Jagr was the better player. Nedved admitted in an interview at the draft itself that Jagr was the best player in the draft. Jagr wanted to play with his idol Mario, he planned it so that he would go to Pittsburgh. So your frustrations should have been directed at Jagr for not wanting to play for Vancouver than the guy that was actually excited to play for the Canucks.

[guntrix]

7 hours ago, Jester13 said:

JV has NHL speed and an elite shot to go with his better-than-average size. His huge lower body will make him very hard to hit, and will let him hit very hard.

 

He will be just fine. 

People have been saying this ever since he was drafted but without the necessary IQ, he won't progress from a 3rd/4th line energy player. 

 

The fact that people have seemingly convinced themselves that it's fine that a 6th overall pick doesn't have to score in his draft +3 year says it all. 

[Ghostsof1915]

Can someone explain why supposed Canuck fans want him to fail or be a bust?