Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[SilentSam]

2 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

WD has openly admitted that this year he’s less focussed on development and more on winning.  He’s admitted that development vs winning doesn’t exactly run parallel paths. He’s admitted that last year, apparently the goal was more focussed on development of young players, (this focus likely started and changed when this team was hit with injuries, prior to those injuries development didn’t appear to be the main goal).  And finally, WD has admitted that sometimes having less focus on winning can benefit a team and gives young players a chance to develop more, as opposed to a purely winning focussed team.  He’s admitted that without injuries and a change in team goals, a player like Sven Baertschi likely isn’t on this team in 2017, because he wouldn’t have had the opportunity to develop him.

 

http://news.nationalpost.com/sports/nhl/vancouver-canucks-coach-willie-desjardins-new-road-map-leads-straight-ahead-playoffs-or-bust

 

 

 

I think it’s pretty obvious to see that, WD believes the when the objective is to win he doesn’t have a the freedom to develop younger players, it becomes less of a focus of his and winning takes priority over developing.  Now the question is where is that direction coming from?  Is TL just blowing smoke with the quotes I provided in the post above? 

I think your dinging it FB,

I'm guessing, but from any rumour I've heard has ownership needing and possibly mandating to be in the playoffs.

.. that's coming 3rd hand to me.. a friend, friend of a journalist, friend and confidante to someone in management.

I still consider that rumour.

Edited January 30, 2017 by SilentSam

[SilentSam]

5 hours ago, alfstonker said:

 

I can't make up my mind if it's just that you are ignorant of what has actually happened in Toronto or you are just deciding to ignore the differences to suit your ill thought out argument.

Leaving that aside, do you really think in the same circumstances Green would be accepting nightly losses just to develop AHL calibre players like Subban, LaBate, Zalewski, Pedan and Cassels?

Comparing them to Reilly, Marner, Matthews, Nylander, Brown, Carrick and Hyman makes you look like a fool.

You work with what your given.

And if WD was any good at it we would have seen more prospects by now.

If he is as good as you think (historically) at other levels, then 1 of 2 things are true.

1) he's not good at this level so far.

2) the agenda has shifted.

 

By the way, you go out of your way trying to insult people and compound discussions to and past the point of absurdity..

Which is where I'll leave you.

Choke on it.

 

[Gurn]

18 minutes ago, SilentSam said:

You work with what your given.

And if WD was any good at it we would have seen more prospects by now.

If he is as good as you think (historically) at other levels, then 1 of 2 things are true.

1) he's not good at this level so far.

2) the agenda has shifted.

 

By the way, you go out of your way trying to insult people and compound discussions to and past the point of absurdity..

Which is where I'll leave you.

Choke on it.

 

Horvat

Sven

Tryamkin

Stetcher

Hutton

Grandlund

 

how many more prospects developed or developing do you want ?

[aGENT]

How about @alfstonker and @SilentSam take the WD argument which has been full of hearsay and ignorance with a nice side of pissy-douche to either a WD thread or even better, PM?

[terrible.dee]

On 1/21/2017 at 10:03 PM, Hutton Wink said:

Could you imagine the 70s Canucks with Lanny McDonald, Rick Middleton, and Mike Bossy instead of Dennis Ververgaert, Bob Daily, and Jere Gillis?

Could you imagine the 80s Canucks with Al MacInnis, Mark Messier, and Glenn Anderson instead of Garth Butcher, Ken Ellacott, and Art Rutland?

 

Hindsight and handwringing is pointless and myopic nellying, never mind the fact that the players are barely 20 years old yet.

 

 

 

Could you imagine CDC where everyone had to run their comments by a literate adult before posting?

[Warhippy]

5 minutes ago, terrible.dee said:

Could you imagine CDC where everyone had to run their comments by a literate adult before posting?

We would be as quiet as the Panthers board 

[SilentSam]

38 minutes ago, gurn said:

Horvat

Sven

Tryamkin

Stetcher

Hutton

Grandlund

 

how many more prospects developed or developing do you want ?

Your dragging this thread off course..

I leave with this:

 

Horvat had game from day 1

 

Sven went to Utica to figure it out with Green.

 

Tryamkin has been game from his arrival last year (10 games)..

Lucky not to have lost him to the KHL because WD took issue with conditioning.

 

Stetcher has had game from Day 1. Lucky to get forced ice time because of injuries.

 

Hutton showed well in 1st year. Was the Footprint for his second.

 

Granlund was game from his arrival. Needed only a fresh start.

 

WD has needed these players, he has not developed them.

Edited January 30, 2017 by SilentSam

[SilentSam]

I'm done with WD here.

its a Jake V thread.

Edited January 30, 2017 by SilentSam

[alfstonker]

11 minutes ago, SilentSam said:

I'm done with WD here.

its a Jake V thread.

Thank goodness but that's what happens when you write such biased bilge.

[Derp...]

JAKE VIRTANEN TALK!

 

JAKE VIRTANEN

 

JAKE

VIRTANEN

TALKING

VIRT

JAKEY

 

BIG COUNTRY!

 

Still working on his consistency with TG

[alfstonker]

3 hours ago, meh_wassup said:

Really could not care less whether you lose sleep are not, I wanted to explain my minus in the hopes that you will lay off the personal insults.

Maybe if there had been a personal insult in the post you might have justified putting on your "sheriff's badge" but unfortunately for you there was none. Now maybe you would like to write something pertinent to hockey.

[terrible.dee]

10 hours ago, alfstonker said:

Don't be silly.

The right coach for Jake would have been his Dad, who could have put an end to the high life and seen to it that he turned up in the same condition he left at the end of last season - instead we got a lardy ass out of condition boy who could barely do an after game interview because he was still sucking air through his backside.

 

THIS! Right here

C'mon guys, this is the &^@#ing NHL, not Britania Hockey school

This is the place where millions of dollars are on the line and you can go from fut5ure millionaire to minimum wage in a south Surrey minute if you don't commit yourself 100% to being better than the other guy.

If you look at the personal practice habits of Wayne Gretzky and Sidney Crosby you'll notice one thing. They do MORE than any other players, those two have and had absolutely insane SELF-IMPOSED development plans,

 

Gretz used to be in his basement for hours working on his awareness of where pucks would be, it wasn't a magic trick, he put in the 10,000 hours, and I think it was his Dad who was supervising his drills if memory serves. 

 

Those two players left nothing to chance they committed 100% to being the best they could be,

 

Now look at Virt, everyone knows the deal with big guys in jr. Thewy are used to dominating less phsically gifted kids but once they are on the ice with men and they don't have that advantage, THEN we see what they are made of.

 

Everyone knew this was the gamble in drafting Virt, and this is why so many people thought it was a terrible idea, couple that with his age, which meant he was being drafted with minimal hockey experience and the idea of drafting him gets even worse,

 

Now we see that Virt lacks big league practice habits and commitment, which I'm not sure if the Canucks had any idea about or not, but regardless they put the spotlight on what a terrible decision it was for a team in our position to gamble on a player like this.

 

Make no mistake people, those of you who are saying Virt will be fine don't realize how bad this has gotten

 

There is a flashing neon sign over Virts head right now that reads BUST

 

He can probably stay in the NHL if he starts hitting and fighting, his physical tools will grant him that, but it will not be as a top 6 player and it won't be in Vancouver.

 

And it won't be Green WD or anyone's fault but his.......and maybe his Dad's

Edited January 30, 2017 by -Vintage Canuck-
Please don't bypass word censors.

[alfstonker]

3 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

WD has openly admitted that this year he’s less focussed on development and more on winning.  He’s admitted that development vs winning doesn’t exactly run parallel paths. He’s admitted that last year, apparently the goal was more focussed on development of young players, (this focus likely started and changed when this team was hit with injuries, prior to those injuries development didn’t appear to be the main goal).  And finally, WD has admitted that sometimes having less focus on winning can benefit a team and gives young players a chance to develop more, as opposed to a purely winning focussed team.  He’s admitted that without injuries and a change in team goals, a player like Sven Baertschi likely isn’t on this team in 2017, because he wouldn’t have had the opportunity to develop him.

 

http://news.nationalpost.com/sports/nhl/vancouver-canucks-coach-willie-desjardins-new-road-map-leads-straight-ahead-playoffs-or-bust

 

 

 

I think it’s pretty obvious to see that, WD believes the when the objective is to win he doesn’t have a the freedom to develop younger players, it becomes less of a focus of his and winning takes priority over developing.  Now the question is where is that direction coming from?  Is TL just blowing smoke with the quotes I provided in the post above? 

Nevertheless he is. He has 3 players in their first full season and 3 in their 2nd full season. 

 

He has also said that the best way to develop young players is in a winning environment that was echoed time and again by JB.

 

You are really talking about Jake, the elephant in the room, but the fact is Willie was developing him, from the WJC to the end of the season and what did Jake do? He took a rise out of the coach by turning up at the beginning of the season out of condition and unlike Tryamkin who admitted he was unfit and pulled out all the stops to get fit, Jake went into a sulk and ran to the media.

 

What we have in Utica PALES against what the Leafs had and no coach would put Subban or Grenier in the team, because Subban, Pedan haven't learned to defend and Grenier hasn't learned to use his size - these are things that get learned in the A not the NHL.

Most of their prospects have had 2/3 seasons in the A, the KHL, SHL or the US College system so don't say Babcock is doing any different. Only their high end picks started in the NHL.

 

[Honky Cat]

I'm not a WD fan,and the whole thing about him 'working' with younger players is overrated.IMO...In WD's defence,he does not have the time to teach young players how to be NHL players..It's not his his fault that Virtanen was 'out of shape',or mentally disciplined enough to be a consistent NHL player.

[aGENT]

40 minutes ago, terrible.dee said:

Make no mistake people, those of you who are saying Virt will be fine don't realize how bad this has gotten

 

On 1/27/2017 at 7:22 PM, CANUCK-EXPRESS said:

Saw this on Twitter. Guess he played well tonight?

 

On 1/15/2017 at 4:06 PM, HomeBrew said:

This article from Friday might of been lost in all of the Tkachuk whining around here, but these are Green's recent thoughts on Virtanen (source). By his account he is working hard at improving his game and is not necessarily lacking at anything in particular - just needs to improve his overall game. This probably means having that constant compete level that the pro level requires to be successful that most people here have pointed out. 

 

[WeneedLumme]

22 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

 

 

I can hardly wait to see how AwfulD explains how Jake is really garbage and how Green doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. Seems like a lot of the haters here are unaware of how he's playing right now.

Edited January 30, 2017 by WeneedLumme

[Bissurnette]

1 hour ago, alfstonker said:

Maybe if there had been a personal insult in the post you might have justified putting on your "sheriff's badge" but unfortunately for you there was none. Now maybe you would like to write something pertinent to hockey.

Consider yourself warned. Next time it's a report.

 

6 minutes ago, WeneedLumme said:

I can hardly wait to see how AwfulD explains how Jake is really garbage and how Green doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

Don't really know how any of our prospects develop being immersed in this market 24/7. It's a miracle Horvat is where he's at. That's a testament to his personality but very few people are like him. Jake is in a great place to develop where he can stay away from it all. Green seems to be guiding him in the right direction. Hopefully he keeps it up.

[Jiggs50]

Anyone else realize that JV is still only 20. Just relax. 

 

I'm already so excited too see him, Boeser, Demko, and OJ at camp next year!

[ForsbergTheGreat]

48 minutes ago, alfstonker said:

Nevertheless he is. He has 3 players in their first full season and 3 in their 2nd full season. 

 

He has also said that the best way to develop young players is in a winning environment that was echoed time and again by JB.

 

You are really talking about Jake, the elephant in the room, but the fact is Willie was developing him, from the WJC to the end of the season and what did Jake do? He took a rise out of the coach by turning up at the beginning of the season out of condition and unlike Tryamkin who admitted he was unfit and pulled out all the stops to get fit, Jake went into a sulk and ran to the media.

I'm not talking specifically about Jake. I'm just stating what WD stated himself. When the direction is to win, he doesn't have the freedom or the opportunity to focus on developing players, winning takes priority.  Those are his words.

 

On one hand you got TL saying playoffs and winning is important but it will not take precedence over the future.

And on the other hand you got WD saying, winning is the focus and because of that develop takes the back seat.

 

To contradicting statements. 

 

Winning and developing are two extremely hard task to achieve at the same time.  And one focus always tends take priority over over the other.  Last year due to injuries canucks were able to focus more on development over winning.  And Bo, Sven, Hutton and Tryamkin all benefited from it. Where if we had no injuries and were playoff focus they might not have reached the level there are at today so fast. Again WD’s words.

 

Yes mgmt keeps saying that we are going to try to win and implement youth, but it doesn't always work out that way.  It would be nice if development and winning went hand in hand, but in order for that to happen you need:

A ) a overflowing cupboard of top young prospects (something we don’t have compared to other teams), and/or

B ) a current core that can carry the weight when young players struggle and are inconsistent (but sedins have been just as inconsistent as any player on our roster) and/or

C ) a relatively healthy line up (which again we don't seem to get)

 

Without at least having two of those 3 options the plan doesn't work.  Unless you consider a 3rd worst season finish a "winning" season.  I’m of the opinion that, what TL tells media and what TL tells WD are different directions.

 

48 minutes ago, alfstonker said:

What we have in Utica PALES against what the Leafs had and no coach would put Subban or Grenier in the team, because Subban, Pedan haven't learned to defend and Grenier hasn't learned to use his size - these are things that get learned in the A not the NHL.

Most of their prospects have had 2/3 seasons in the A, the KHL, SHL or the US College system so don't say Babcock is doing any different. Only their high end picks started in the NHL.

 

WD’s freedom has far less to do with what’s in our system and far more to what his bosses are telling him to do.  WD doesn’t get to decide how long his leash it. Alf you get far too caught up in your love feast for WD that you can’t even tell when a statement is made in defense of the coach.  I’m stating that if ownership stayed out of the canucks directions and let the team rebuild through a pure focus on player development that WD would have been more effective at developing players. 

 

The difference between Babcock and WD in terms of developing is that the leafs ownership isn’t forcing Babcock to win at all costs. Babcock has a 8 year leash to work with his players even if it means a few extra games lost due to rookie inconsistency.  WD doesn’t appear have the leeway.   It’s either win now or find a new job. 

[guntrix]

41 minutes ago, WeneedLumme said:

I can hardly wait to see how AwfulD explains how Jake is really garbage and how Green doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. Seems like a lot of the haters here are unaware of how he's playing right now.

Honest question: do you even watch Utica games? Be honest.

 

Or do you scour Twitter and take Green's media statements at face value?

 

If you don't bother watching the Utica games you shouldn't be calling other posters who do "unaware."