Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[Fakename70]

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask if he's going to be that Wayne Simmonds-type top-6 RW the team is going to need going forward. If not, the organisation has to consider involving him in a deal to acquire that if it isn't already in-house. 

Now is the time for him to show he can be that kind of player at the NHL level. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by Fakename70

[gameburn2]

On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 6:12 PM, BoDangles53 said:

With his speed and size, he should be watching clips of Bertuzzi and Neely. He'll never be a Mcdavid or Crosby and plays a different game. Both those guys defined what is was to be a power forward and neither had his wheels. They hit hard, drove to the net, and found the spots where they could use their size to overpower and get to the net to score.

 

He needs to learn by watching players like that because he has the same skillset - although Bert had pretty damn soft mitts and dangles for any sized man too-which was the crazy part of his game for such a huge player

What I was thinking of was the play-making.  You're right, he will never be C. or McD. Nevertheless, I would argue that current players who have too much speed -- yes too much -- learn to make plays.  He has to vary his game.  I hope and pray he learns to make plays in Utica.  It's the best way to see the whole sheet of ice.

[N4ZZY]

patience. that is all. 

 

 

[DownUndaCanuck]

On 3/25/2017 at 5:56 PM, BoDangles53 said:

You seem to assume 6th overall means you HAVE to be a 30 goal man etc. I don't, I look at the make up of a team and what a team needs in the playoffs to win. You alluded to it 'missing that kind of player' 

 

If he can be a 2nd liner (which I think he will be) and score 20-25 and be a menace physically and use his speed to get on top of dmen and forecheck to create opptys for other players, we have a gem, a player like Lucic without the fighting and with wheels. I'll take it every day of the week given how that skill set is needed in our future lineup

 

Every player has a role, JB and TL are big believers in this and assembling a GROUP with a mix of skills and talents - he's part of the puzzle not the only piece and alot of fans somehow think that because he was drafted 6th he needs to be a 90pt player. No he needs to be a very important part of the group (agree at that high pick he has to be an important cog, but what the role is doesn't have to be the 'go to guy'). Dahlen, Goldobin, Baer, Granny, are going to need someone who can create room for them, when they are scoring take a look who may have forced the puck loose on a hard hit in the end boards - it may just be the guy everyone here is ragging on.

 

I am sure many here will complain if he does that and pots 20-25 and gets 40-50 pts. They'll always say well he's not Ehlers or Nylander but will ignore how important his role may end up being for this team.

 

 

I think going into the draft with a 6th overall pick, you need to have some criteria, especially when you take such a controversial player knowing that there are players 5 spots after him who are far more skilled than him.

 

We know he's got speed, we know he can hit (or could hit in junior), but when you're picking in the top 10 of a pretty damn deep draft, it's fair to have high expectations. The Canucks were entering a rebuild that year, they needed a foundational player and passed up on Nylander and Ehlers who are scoring 20+ goals and 50-60 points in their sophmore seasons, and are only getting better. To pass up on that top line elite offensive ability, you damn well better get a good if not better player.

 

In Virtanen, we had high hopes that he'd be a physical powerforward who can skate hard, play a solid north-south game and be a goal scorer. That's the theory. It's all well and good to have a nice idea and theory, but when we drafted him we should have known it was a risky pick. 

 

Virtanen was merely a point per game at the WHL level. That's not very good offensively. We've seen him skate rings and score pretty goals in junior but not many players who score at just a point per game in the WHL go top-10 in the NHL draft. Most are averaging 1.2-1.5 points per game, the real top guys even more than that. It's a relatively easy league to score in.

 

Secondly, sure, Virtanen was throwing his weight around, but he suffered a pretty serious shoulder injury and missed a lot of his crucial development junior games (I think around 30). That doesn't bode well for a "future" powerforward, hitter and shooter.

 

Hindsight is 20-20, but everything was laid out on the table when we picked him. JB should have known it was a high risk high reward pick, and sure Ehlers and Nylander are smaller, they had far more proven offensive stats. Nylander had played and scored big goals against men in Sweden and was far less risky at the time of the draft. Ehlers was a bit more risky considering he put up big numbers with good linemates and only really did it in junior against kids. Regardless, they were gaudy numbers that simply don't lie, and when you're scoring that much they often translate to the NHL.

 

Now we're stuck with Virtanen who can't yet score at the AHL let alone NHL level. I know that's not what we want just yet, but realistically for a #6 pick we need some defined expectations. For me, we need a 20+ consistent goal scorer who can throw some decent hits and skate really fast. If he can kill penalties that's a nice added bonus, but we need a consistent top-6 winger. We cannot accept a third or fourth line Torres-like checker. That is defined in my books as a complete and utter fail of the highest pick the team had seen since the Sedins, and that there is the difference between teams like the Blackhawks that draft and develop their high picks well, and teams like the Canucks who get consistent top-10 picks and blow them.

 

In terms of being patient and waiting, I'm all for waiting. Virtanen should have stayed in junior but lets not get into that frenzy of a mess JB, TL and WD all combined to create, and hope they haven't destroyed his development completely. As for how long, we really need him to combine his peak with the rest of the team's young core's peak. We've got a lot of early 20 year olds on this team right now. Horvat's entering his prime. Granlund and Baertschi are close too. I'd say those 3 are 1 year away from entering their prime, which may last 3-5 years if we're lucky. On defence, Tryamkin, Stecher and Hutton are probably 2 years away from their best hockey. Sbisa's in it right now. Goldobin and Dahlen are probably 1-2 years away from their best NHL hockey. Juolevi is still 3 years off at least. Boeser's clearly a year or two away from his best hockey. The 2017 pick will probably be fast tracked to hit his prime in 3-4 years.

 

Realistically, that gives us 2-3 years before we need Virtanen contributing consistently at an NHL level. That's my timeline for him. Doesn't have to be in the thick of his prime, just contributing. 10-20 goals would be lovely as long as he plays well defensively and physically. That's plenty of time, and he'll spend most of that in Utica. Until then it's unfair to label Virtanen a bust. Sure, I believe he was the wrong pick through and through, but if he can be a sort of powerforward who can score 20 goals in 3 years then we've hit one out of the park. Until then it honestly doesn't matter. We're not contending for the playoffs let alone the cup anytime soon so don't need him at his best, but when the rest of the kids come around, if Virtanen isn't ready or still isn't good enough, we've mucked this pick up big time.

[N4ZZY]

16 minutes ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

 

I think going into the draft with a 6th overall pick, you need to have some criteria, especially when you take such a controversial player knowing that there are players 5 spots after him who are far more skilled than him.

 

We know he's got speed, we know he can hit (or could hit in junior), but when you're picking in the top 10 of a pretty damn deep draft, it's fair to have high expectations. The Canucks were entering a rebuild that year, they needed a foundational player and passed up on Nylander and Ehlers who are scoring 20+ goals and 50-60 points in their sophmore seasons, and are only getting better. To pass up on that top line elite offensive ability, you damn well better get a good if not better player.

 

In Virtanen, we had high hopes that he'd be a physical powerforward who can skate hard, play a solid north-south game and be a goal scorer. That's the theory. It's all well and good to have a nice idea and theory, but when we drafted him we should have known it was a risky pick. 

 

Virtanen was merely a point per game at the WHL level. That's not very good offensively. We've seen him skate rings and score pretty goals in junior but not many players who score at just a point per game in the WHL go top-10 in the NHL draft. Most are averaging 1.2-1.5 points per game, the real top guys even more than that. It's a relatively easy league to score in.

 

Secondly, sure, Virtanen was throwing his weight around, but he suffered a pretty serious shoulder injury and missed a lot of his crucial development junior games (I think around 30). That doesn't bode well for a "future" powerforward, hitter and shooter.

 

Hindsight is 20-20, but everything was laid out on the table when we picked him. JB should have known it was a high risk high reward pick, and sure Ehlers and Nylander are smaller, they had far more proven offensive stats. Nylander had played and scored big goals against men in Sweden and was far less risky at the time of the draft. Ehlers was a bit more risky considering he put up big numbers with good linemates and only really did it in junior against kids. Regardless, they were gaudy numbers that simply don't lie, and when you're scoring that much they often translate to the NHL.

 

Now we're stuck with Virtanen who can't yet score at the AHL let alone NHL level. I know that's not what we want just yet, but realistically for a #6 pick we need some defined expectations. For me, we need a 20+ consistent goal scorer who can throw some decent hits and skate really fast. If he can kill penalties that's a nice added bonus, but we need a consistent top-6 winger. We cannot accept a third or fourth line Torres-like checker. That is defined in my books as a complete and utter fail of the highest pick the team had seen since the Sedins, and that there is the difference between teams like the Blackhawks that draft and develop their high picks well, and teams like the Canucks who get consistent top-10 picks and blow them.

 

In terms of being patient and waiting, I'm all for waiting. Virtanen should have stayed in junior but lets not get into that frenzy of a mess JB, TL and WD all combined to create, and hope they haven't destroyed his development completely. As for how long, we really need him to combine his peak with the rest of the team's young core's peak. We've got a lot of early 20 year olds on this team right now. Horvat's entering his prime. Granlund and Baertschi are close too. I'd say those 3 are 1 year away from entering their prime, which may last 3-5 years if we're lucky. On defence, Tryamkin, Stecher and Hutton are probably 2 years away from their best hockey. Sbisa's in it right now. Goldobin and Dahlen are probably 1-2 years away from their best NHL hockey. Juolevi is still 3 years off at least. Boeser's clearly a year or two away from his best hockey. The 2017 pick will probably be fast tracked to hit his prime in 3-4 years.

 

Realistically, that gives us 2-3 years before we need Virtanen contributing consistently at an NHL level. That's my timeline for him. Doesn't have to be in the thick of his prime, just contributing. 10-20 goals would be lovely as long as he plays well defensively and physically. That's plenty of time, and he'll spend most of that in Utica. Until then it's unfair to label Virtanen a bust. Sure, I believe he was the wrong pick through and through, but if he can be a sort of powerforward who can score 20 goals in 3 years then we've hit one out of the park. Until then it honestly doesn't matter. We're not contending for the playoffs let alone the cup anytime soon so don't need him at his best, but when the rest of the kids come around, if Virtanen isn't ready or still isn't good enough, we've mucked this pick up big time.

I agree with most of what you've said. 

 

I think in hindsight, the better and more correct pick would have been Ehlers or Nylander. And the way that they're contributing to their respective teams makes it easy to knock Virtanen and his lack of production even in a league that's a tier lower than the NHL. Ehlers is a gifted offensive player, and his game is far different than Jake's game for sure. I think with Jake, the logic behind the pick was that management understood that it was a risky pick, but it was risky bust, but if he worked out, the risk would have been worth it. It was a gamble that JB, TL made. and we've yet to see if that gamble will pay off or not. With where the Canucks are at, I don't mind some risk, but JB and TL cannot continue to take risks like this, or else the prospect pool just will not be very strong. They need quality players, over risky type ones like Jake. Once in a while, sure, ok, but every draft? No way. That's no way to build through the draft - in order for the team to do that - they also need to draft well. I think in hindsight, as you say, is 20-20. 

I'm hoping that Jake does become a 20+ goal scorer in the NHL. Like I've said before many times - I'm intrigued with this off-season, not only with the ED, and the NHL Draft, and which prospect we'll be adding to our young core, but also in particular, Jake's off-season. That'll be an intense focus there, and how seriously he's taking his conditioning. Because if he comes into training camp in poor condition again then there's alarm and concern for sure moving forward, and might be wise for Benning to begin shopping him, or packaging him as a larger package for another player. Cause Jake coming to training camp in poor condition again would be indication that he might not be taking his career, and professionalism seriously. If that's the case, that's more a character issue than anything else. 

I'm rooting for the kid. It's not easy for Jake to be in his hometown, and do well, especially a fishbowl fanatical fanbase like Vancity. But next season is a big season for Jake Virtanen. The progress I'd be wanting to see, as a fan, is his offensive prowess. If he takes steps in his offensive game next season, I think most fans will be happy with his progress and further development. He'd only be 21 this time next year. That's still really young. But he should be, on a more consistent basis, be putting his game together. If he's got 16 points at this point next season, well, yeah, probably not going to be expecting much when he does make it to the NHL.........it's too bad, if he doesn't make it. So much talent, and an amazing set of skills, just didn't put it together. That'd be quite the tragedy.

 

 

[SilentSam]

9 hours ago, N4ZZY said:

I agree with most of what you've said. 

 

I think in hindsight, the better and more correct pick would have been Ehlers or Nylander. And the way that they're contributing to their respective teams makes it easy to knock Virtanen and his lack of production even in a league that's a tier lower than the NHL. Ehlers is a gifted offensive player, and his game is far different than Jake's game for sure. I think with Jake, the logic behind the pick was that management understood that it was a risky pick, but it was risky bust, but if he worked out, the risk would have been worth it. It was a gamble that JB, TL made. and we've yet to see if that gamble will pay off or not. With where the Canucks are at, I don't mind some risk, but JB and TL cannot continue to take risks like this, or else the prospect pool just will not be very strong. They need quality players, over risky type ones like Jake. Once in a while, sure, ok, but every draft? No way. That's no way to build through the draft - in order for the team to do that - they also need to draft well. I think in hindsight, as you say, is 20-20. 

I'm hoping that Jake does become a 20+ goal scorer in the NHL. Like I've said before many times - I'm intrigued with this off-season, not only with the ED, and the NHL Draft, and which prospect we'll be adding to our young core, but also in particular, Jake's off-season. That'll be an intense focus there, and how seriously he's taking his conditioning. Because if he comes into training camp in poor condition again then there's alarm and concern for sure moving forward, and might be wise for Benning to begin shopping him, or packaging him as a larger package for another player. Cause Jake coming to training camp in poor condition again would be indication that he might not be taking his career, and professionalism seriously. If that's the case, that's more a character issue than anything else. 

I'm rooting for the kid. It's not easy for Jake to be in his hometown, and do well, especially a fishbowl fanatical fanbase like Vancity. But next season is a big season for Jake Virtanen. The progress I'd be wanting to see, as a fan, is his offensive prowess. If he takes steps in his offensive game next season, I think most fans will be happy with his progress and further development. He'd only be 21 this time next year. That's still really young. But he should be, on a more consistent basis, be putting his game together. If he's got 16 points at this point next season, well, yeah, probably not going to be expecting much when he does make it to the NHL.........it's too bad, if he doesn't make it. So much talent, and an amazing set of skills, just didn't put it together. That'd be quite the tragedy.

 

 

We are treating Virtannen differently than we did Neely years ago. I'm comparing this situation to the player, not the players.

Coach and management could not wait for Neely to develop into the power forward of his potential.. they wanted it almost overnight.

so they traded him for a what they thought they needed.. an utterly poor decision all around.

Had they have taken their time to develop Neely (2 more years) they would have had the iconic power forward from BC for his career.

Virtannen is being developed perfectly,. Dividends will pay.

[TimberWolf]

There are things you can work on and be patient to await but one is not Hockey IQ. Jake is a low Hockey IQ player and that doesn't meant he won't be a fit in our lineup anywhere but it won't be in that high IQ elite fashion that separates him from other players.

 

Career third liner or second on a bad team. Raffi Torres style and nothing wrong with that except that it sucks he was a sixth overall. That is outside his control and not his fault where he gets picked. What is inside his control is staying fit and making the most of any opportunity, 

 

Now I could be wrong and he could turn into an elite superstar but I'm just going with what is observable up to this point. Be patient using these expectations and you'll be rewarded, anything else is a bonus. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by TimberWolf

[Alflives]

6 minutes ago, TimberWolf said:

There are things you can work on and be patient to await but one is not Hockey IQ. Jake is a low Hockey IQ player and that doesn't meant he won't be a fit in our lineup anywhere but it won't be in that high IQ elite fashion that separates him from other players.

 

Career third liner or second on a bad team. Raffi Torres style and nothing wrong with that except that it sucks he was a sixth overall. That is outside his control and not his fault where he gets picked. What is inside his control is staying fit and making the most of any opportunity, 

 

Now I could be wrong and he could turn into an elite superstar but I'm just going with what is observable up to this point. Be patient using these expectations and you'll be rewarded, anything else is a bonus. 

Wasn't Raffi Torres an even higher pick than Jake?

[-AJ-]

6 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Wasn't Raffi Torres an even higher pick than Jake?

Yep, he was 5th overall. To be fair, Torres had about the same number of goal as Jake in his draft year, but more assists.

[rizzuto&hatoum]

Just looked at the Comets stats page - rather shocked when comparing Labate's ppg vs JV's - 0.45 vs 0.29. (JL - 29 gp 13 pts; JV - 56 gp 16 pts)

 

I like both players but wow.

[Phil_314]

5 minutes ago, rizzuto&hatoum said:

Just looked at the Comets stats page - rather shocked when comparing Labate's ppg vs JV's - 0.45 vs 0.29. (JL - 29 gp 13 pts; JV - 56 gp 16 pts)

 

I like both players but wow.

Surely those can't be viewed as the most promising stats but wouldn't trust them to tell the whole story without some context.  How is Jake being utilized (which line is he on, how much time on ice does he get, who are his line-mates, does he get power-play time, is he given an offensive role, from an analysis perspective has he been progressing or regressing overall)?  Has he been healthy?  From anyone who's watched games would they be able to see that he's making more intelligent and offensive plays?  How's his shooting %?  If anyone could provide some insight or reporting from media about his play then that would be great.  

[higgyfan]

17 minutes ago, TimberWolf said:

There are things you can work on and be patient to await but one is not Hockey IQ. Jake is a low Hockey IQ player and that doesn't meant he won't be a fit in our lineup anywhere but it won't be in that high IQ elite fashion that separates him from other players.

 

Career third liner or second on a bad team. Raffi Torres style and nothing wrong with that except that it sucks he was a sixth overall. That is outside his control and not his fault where he gets picked. What is inside his control is staying fit and making the most of any opportunity, 

 

Now I could be wrong and he could turn into an elite superstar but I'm just going with what is observable up to this point. Be patient using these expectations and you'll be rewarded, anything else is a bonus. 

Hockey sense can be improved on by consistently training with a focus on the basics, which is what he is doing in Utica.

 

I think Torres' undisciplined temper had a negative effect on his career.  Hopefully that will not be a problem for Jake.

 

I don't see Jake as an elite player, but if he ends up a career 3rd liner after being picked 6th in a strong draft, it will be disappointing. 

 

In the end, if he works his butt off and puts out a solid effort every night, that's all you can as for.  As you have stated; it's certainly not his fault where he was picked in the draft.

[Guest]

Like other have mentioned, I see Virt being a very important player on our 3rd line. A type of 3rd-liner that will be very effective in playoff games - throwing big hits, scoring some timely goals, and putting up some fights to get the energy going. He will be able to step up to second-line offensive duties when needed. Overall, not a bad thing at all -although many of us were hoping to see him become an offensive force on the first or second line. Time will tell.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Guest

[Alflives]

Just now, Chandymen said:

Like other have mentioned, I see Virt being a very important player on our 3rd line. A type of 3rd-liner that will be very effective in playoff games - throwing big hits, scoring some timely goals, and putting up some fights to get the energy going. He will be able to step up to second-line offensive duties when needed. Overall, not a bad thing at all -although many of us were hoping to see him before an offensive force on the first or second line. Time will tell.

I think it was Ray Ferraro who said he saw Virtanen as a bigger Hansen.  If Jake becomes a bigger Hansen, that's one heck of a player.

[darkpoet]

Update as of a few minutes ago.... it looks like Jake's getting it together down there.

Man, if that kid comes through, look out... he's a wrecking ball like Raffi Torres. He can hurt guys. And if he finds a scoring touch along with that? Boom.

http://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/nhl/vancouver-canucks/i-have-to-prove-that-i-belong-would-be-canuck-virtanen-turning-corner-with-comets

 

[-Vintage Canuck-]

"You have to earn every opportunity and I have to prove that I belong. It’s how the game works" - Virtanen

 

"I want to go into camp and be in phenomenal shape. I’m already pretty prepared for that and I’m completely dedicated to that." - Virtanen

 

"I’ve taken another step and they’ve been pushing me in the right direction. This is a tougher league than guys think." - Virtanen on Utica

 

"It hasn’t been all roses for Jake. We’ve been very honest with him. Are we hard on him? Sometimes." - Green on Virtanen

 

"We’ve pushed Jake in knowing that his fitness might not be the best in his game." - Green on Virtanen

[Westcoasting]

After this season i see him as more of a Darcy Hordichuk player, i think we will be jumping for joy if he turns into Torres and is a 20 goal scorer.

[darkpoet]

3 minutes ago, -Vintage Canuck- said:

"You have to earn every opportunity and I have to prove that I belong. It’s how the game works" - Virtanen

 

"I want to go into camp and be in phenomenal shape. I’m already pretty prepared for that and I’m completely dedicated to that." - Virtanen

 

"I’ve taken another step and they’ve been pushing me in the right direction. This is a tougher league than guys think." - Virtanen on Utica

 

"It hasn’t been all roses for Jake. We’ve been very honest with him. Are we hard on him? Sometimes." - Green on Virtanen

 

"We’ve pushed Jake in knowing that his fitness might not be the best in his game." - Green on Virtanen

I'm terrified of losing Travis Green.

That guy is gold.

Almost 1,000 games as a player in the NHL, and learning from some really great coaches along the way. Al Arbour (3rd all time in wins and only Scotty Bowman has coached more games) , Pat Quinn in Toronto, Randy Carlyle...

We have to find a way to keep him. 

[aGENT]

Good read guys

[Ichiban604]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

I think it was Ray Ferraro who said he saw Virtanen as a bigger Hansen.  If Jake becomes a bigger Hansen, that's one heck of a player.

Yes it would be a great additional, but I rather have Nylander or Ehlers. Overall, I don't think he have the IQ to be defensively responsible compare to a Hansen. His young, he wants to be a top line player, if the coaching staff tell him to play bottom six role for the the next few years, don't think he would like that.