Was Sven Baertschi worth losing Oliver Kylington?

[JeremyCuddles]

Sven is years ahead of development, exactly what we need on LW as far as prospects go, actually plays a similar game to the Canucks system. And Kylington would not have been drafted by the Canucks so the point is moot.

[Ghostsof1915]

We've traded a 2nd rounder for a guy who unless he has a horrible training camp, will be playing on the team this coming season.

Since we need help now, and scoring NOW. I'm ok with this deal.

[higgyfan]

This needed its own thread?

[Down by the River]

Kylington: Mason Raymond on defence.

Baertschi had a TERRIFIC Calder cup run. He's motivated to show Calgary they made a mistake.

Does anyone on here really think that Baertschi's number in junior wouldn't have warranted him being drafted in the first round or early second round of THIS draft? Baertschi had better numbers than Merkely despite playing FAR fewer games.

People fall in love with draft picks because they want to say "I knew he'd be great from the beginning". I'd rather just have the better player.

[Shadow Assassin]

I'm only disappointed because I would have loved to have a player we could have named Corporal Klinger

Any MASH reference is worth a +1 in my books; it is good thing he didn't get drafted by us, because now I thinking about how we could make him play hockey while wearing dresses while awaiting his section 8 (buyout).

[EastVanCanuck]

I'm really starting to dislike GM JB moves. He seems like he's not making rational decisions and running with his gut, which generally isn't a good way to do things.

He traded away our 2014 2nd round pick for Linden Vey, when he could have just re-signed Santorelli. Santo ended up being better anyway, and would have cost us nothing to keep him.

Then he trades this years 2nd round pick (in what everyone is calling a deep draft) for Sven Baertschi. Don't get me wrong, SB is a good player and I think will make the NHL. But Oliver Kylington was still available at the 53rd overall pick. He was ranked 5th amongst European skaters if I remember correctly, and was at once time projected to be a top 10 pick (but had a disappointing draft year).

The flames took Rasmus Andersson who had tons of points from what I remember, and then ended up getting Kylington anyway with another pick a little later.

In my opinion Benning just threw away 2 picks. If Kylington develops into an NHL defenseman in the next 2 years, the Canucks should consider getting rid of Benning. Talk about disappointment. I was hoping only he made bad moves due to his rookie year, but this year hasn't been any better.

Lol this a fail bro. In my eyes, JB is building a team to succeed in the playoffs. Incomplete players including only offensive players need not apply. Defense wins championships and offence only wins you games my friend.

[Ryan Strome]

We've traded a 2nd rounder for a guy who unless he has a horrible training camp, will be playing on the team this coming season.

Since we need help now, and scoring NOW. I'm ok with this deal.

I would say no matter what SB Will be on the big club considering he is waiver eligible. I doubt JB risks losing him and our 2nd rounder for nothing.

[SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME]

I definitely wouldn't have been willing to trade Bärtschi for this year's #53 overall pick. I probably wouldn't even have considered trading Bärtschi for the #31 overall.

So in that respect, Sven Bärtschi is more than worth "losing Oliver Kylington."

Open spoiler below to read the rest (warning: long post).

At this point in time,

Bärtschi looks like he's back on track to realize much of the potential he displayed as a #13 overall pick in 2011. He looks like he's going to be an NHL player, and possibly a really good one.

That's a lot more valuable than a 2nd round pick.

But with that all said, I also believe that, at the time Bärtschi was traded, he could have been acquired for less that our 2015 2nd round pick. Possibly our 3rd (if we'd still had it available) would have been sufficient. Calgary wasn't in a strong position and, from all accounts, they weren't getting other offers anywhere close to what Benning was willing to give up. So maybe, in a sense, Benning "overpaid" at the time when he acquired Bärtschi, but the trade has since paid off very nicely, and has become quite good value.

Overall, one can't really complain about this type of result. Bärtschi looks like he's going to make the 2015-16 Canucks and could very possibly play in the top-six. That's a great return on a #53 overall pick. And that's something I'd give up a Kylington-type prospect for, as they say, "every day of the week and twice on Sunday."

But, of course, it would have been an even better trade if Benning had paid less (but maybe that's just being greedy).

Linden Vey, on the other hand, was probably never good value for the 2014 #50 overall pick (and I'd trade Vey "every day of the week and twice on Sunday" for a future 2nd round pick). And given the circumstances (Vey's draft position, his waiver status, L.A.'s roster pressures, Vey's development track, etc.), Benning probably shouldn't have needed to give up anything near what he did for Vey. It softens the blow somewhat that the Kings don't really have anything to show for it (since they give up McKeown and a good pick to rent Sekera), and since McKeown now seems to have lost some value due to a bit of an underwhelming development year. Of course, we might not have picked McKeown if we'd actually held on to the #50 overall. But we also gave up a top-4 defensemen (Garrison) to secure that pick, and I can pretty much guarantee that neither Vey nor McKeown (nor even a future #50 overall) would be enough to re-acquire Garrison today.

So #50 overall for Linden Vey was a bit of a poor trade, in terms of value. It was probably an overpayment at the time and it appears to remain an overpayment today.

Benning seems (at this point at least) to have guessed wrong on that trade.

That's not to say that Vey doesn't have some value. He's still quite young and he's already a decent enough utility player and 13th forward in the NHL. And he definitely still has some upside remaining and at least the potential to develop into a good, everyday, skilled, middle-six forward (but he'll need to work hard to get stronger for him to have a chance at achieving this).

I can't imagine there's a team in the league that would give the Canucks a 2nd round pick for Vey right now. He's going to need to get significantly better before he's worth the price Benning paid. Hopefully that happens (and Benning's valuation of this player is proven correct in the future).

In terms of the overall trade value, I'd say that Benning kind of "broke even" on Bärtschi and Vey (if taken together and considering the two 2nd round picks that were given up). But probably, in terms of the actual personnel, the Canucks are quite likely better off with those two players on their roster than they would have been with whatever two prospects they might have acquired with those picks (at least based on our scouts' batting average historically--although thankfully that seems to be improving). However, given that draft picks are generally overvalued in this league, those two 2nd round picks might have also been able to secure a couple very good young-to-prime-aged roster players. And those picks, in terms of total asset value, probably should have been able to secure both Vey and Bärtschi, plus a little bit more (based on the value and conditions at the time of the trades).

So there are some valid reasons to criticize Benning for these trades. Just not anywhere close to enough to suggest he's failed as a manager. I'd say Benning's performance (as an NHL GM) was pretty average, all-in-all, on those two trades. You win some and you lose some. And between what he gained and what he gave up (just speaking specifically of the Bärtschi and Vey trades), he's neither greatly improved or really hurt this team.

It's impossible to know what alternative returns/acquisitions were available (at the time) with those assets but I'm pretty confident that Benning could have either paid less or gotten more than he did. However, I'm also very confident that he could have done a lot worse. As it stands, he acquired two young, cheap options that are ready to fill slots in the forward roster. Both have upside (one has more) and both could become good players for this team (one is a better bet to do so).

(TL;DR:--->) When viewed against the entire drafting history of the Canucks, and also what previous Vancouver GMs have generally gotten out of trades involving 2nd round picks, securing a couple young forwards like Bärtschi and Vey is a significantly better than average outcome (at least based on the past performance/results here in Vancouver).

[Jiggs50]

Wasn't Baertschi a top 15 pick. And he's ready to step in to the lineup next year. Yeah screw the pick!

[chayne]

I'm really starting to dislike GM JB moves. He seems like he's not making rational decisions and running with his gut, which generally isn't a good way to do things.

He traded away our 2014 2nd round pick for Linden Vey, when he could have just re-signed Santorelli. Santo ended up being better anyway, and would have cost us nothing to keep him.

Then he trades this years 2nd round pick (in what everyone is calling a deep draft) for Sven Baertschi. Don't get me wrong, SB is a good player and I think will make the NHL. But Oliver Kylington was still available at the 53rd overall pick. He was ranked 5th amongst European skaters if I remember correctly, and was at once time projected to be a top 10 pick (but had a disappointing draft year).

The flames took Rasmus Andersson who had tons of points from what I remember, and then ended up getting Kylington anyway with another pick a little later.

In my opinion Benning just threw away 2 picks. If Kylington develops into an NHL defenseman in the next 2 years, the Canucks should consider getting rid of Benning. Talk about disappointment. I was hoping only he made bad moves due to his rookie year, but this year hasn't been any better.

I think many times it is better to keep the young prospect. You train them the way you want them to be trained. I do this lots at work. I will hire certain positions out to people with less experience. Then they are trained the way I want them to be. Other positions it nice to have someone experienced. Santo wouldn't of helped Canucks last year. Neither did Vey but Vey learned what to do and how to act.

You are talking IF's. 18% chance of a second rounder becoming a NHL player. Those two picks were used for two players that are NHL players even if they end up bottom 6. That's beating the odds brother!

[Baking Soda]

baerstchi was taken 13th, Kylington was drafted 53rd I think?

Baerstchi is gonna be very good, probably better than oliver

[RonMexico]

I'm really starting to dislike GM JB moves. He seems like he's not making rational decisions and running with his gut, which generally isn't a good way to do things.

He traded away our 2014 2nd round pick for Linden Vey, when he could have just re-signed Santorelli. Santo ended up being better anyway, and would have cost us nothing to keep him.

Then he trades this years 2nd round pick (in what everyone is calling a deep draft) for Sven Baertschi. Don't get me wrong, SB is a good player and I think will make the NHL. But Oliver Kylington was still available at the 53rd overall pick. He was ranked 5th amongst European skaters if I remember correctly, and was at once time projected to be a top 10 pick (but had a disappointing draft year).

The flames took Rasmus Andersson who had tons of points from what I remember, and then ended up getting Kylington anyway with another pick a little later.

In my opinion Benning just threw away 2 picks. If Kylington develops into an NHL defenseman in the next 2 years, the Canucks should consider getting rid of Benning. Talk about disappointment. I was hoping only he made bad moves due to his rookie year, but this year hasn't been any better.

Waaahhhh they didn't pick the guy I wanted them to pick.

[Drakrami]

Considering Baertschi is in almost everyone's top 3 prospect list, the answer is yes? GMs did their scouting and their interviews and Kylington dropped so low for a reason. Baertschi was drafted at #13 and he is progressing like he should, a high 1st rounder.

[WHL rocks]

You'll know the answer to your question in 3 to 5 years. Sit back and relax until then.

[Honky Cat]

There was a void in the Canucks prospect pool of decent players in their early twenties ...I believe JB wanted to get players who were further along in their developmental curve..

[awalk]

Yes, but was Vey worth losing out on McKeown?

[Baking Soda]

Yes, but was Vey worth losing out on McKeown?

the kings traded him anyway

[Monty]

I thought it was Rasmus Andersson. I thought it was funny that it was him, considering all the talk about where he was actually rated. Looks like Calgary reads cdc.

You are correct, it's Andersson. I'm certainly no scout, so I don't know who is the better long term investment, Baertschi or Andersson. I really like Andersson and what he brings to the table, and would have preferred the Canucks actually had more defensive prospects in the system. I have nothing against Baertschi, though. Andersson is still years away (as is Kylington), and both could amount to nothing.

On the other hand, Andersson/Kylington could amount to a lot and be a nightmare for the Canucks 3-5 years from now (at the soonest).

[Gollumpus]

I'm really starting to dislike GM JB moves. He seems like he's not making rational decisions and running with his gut, which generally isn't a good way to do things.

He traded away our 2014 2nd round pick for Linden Vey, when he could have just re-signed Santorelli. Santo ended up being better anyway, and would have cost us nothing to keep him.

Then he trades this years 2nd round pick (in what everyone is calling a deep draft) for Sven Baertschi. Don't get me wrong, SB is a good player and I think will make the NHL. But Oliver Kylington was still available at the 53rd overall pick. He was ranked 5th amongst European skaters if I remember correctly, and was at once time projected to be a top 10 pick (but had a disappointing draft year).

The flames took Rasmus Andersson who had tons of points from what I remember, and then ended up getting Kylington anyway with another pick a little later.

In my opinion Benning just threw away 2 picks. If Kylington develops into an NHL defenseman in the next 2 years, the Canucks should consider getting rid of Benning. Talk about disappointment. I was hoping only he made bad moves due to his rookie year, but this year hasn't been any better.

If Baertschi becomes a good 2nd liner and has a productive career, then no one will care.

If Baertschi has a below average career then people will wail that it was a stupid trade.

regards,

G.

[Down by the River]

Yes, but was Vey worth losing out on McKeown?

Yes. McKeown had a terrible season. Offensive dman? No signs of that. Judging by how some on CDC reacted to Virtanen's season, the same people probably would have set Mckeown's parents' house on fire by now.