The Curious Case of Alexander Edler

[PhillipBlunt]

Just now, elvis15 said:

Let me ask in a different way then: what wasn't covered there that you'd like to cover here which will generate new and useful discussion on Edler?

Fair enough.

1. The Alex Edler is a Liability topic was founded on a biased perspective from Drew is My Name, that Edler was a problem and needed to be excised from the team, post haste. It was already skewed in it's inception.
2. Edler's game against the Rangers was beyond anything he's done in the last two years. He was on and it was awesome. That has to factor in to the discussion as it proved that Edler wasn't a liability as he was huge in all aspects of his game.
3. The Liability topic is locked.
4. The defense is, too quote J.R.'s apt description, a fairly large mess. So for the defense to manage, along with Miller, to keep the Rangers to one goal, is something else. And Edler being the biggest piece of the defense, playing lights out, I believe warrants discussion. 

 

[Pickly]

The guy shows up a couple times a year and plays lights out for the rest of the season he's okay or downright awful. Never understood him really. He has all the tools to be a number 1 minus good skating but for whatever reason, confidence issues, disinterest, or lack of heart, he just never put it all together. 

[Canorth]

4 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Fair enough.

1. The Alex Edler is a Liability topic was founded on a biased perspective from Drew is My Name, that Edler was a problem and needed to be excised from the team, post haste. It was already skewed in it's inception.
2. Edler's game against the Rangers was beyond anything he's done in the last two years. He was on and it was awesome. That has to factor in to the discussion as it proved that Edler wasn't a liability as he was huge in all aspects of his game.
3. The Liability topic is locked.
4. The defense is, too quote J.R.'s apt description, a fairly large mess. So for the defense to manage, along with Miller, to keep the Rangers to one goal, is something else. And Edler being the biggest piece of the defense, playing lights out, I believe warrants discussion. 

 

No need to justify. You don't answer to Elvis.

[elvis15]

8 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Fair enough.

1. The Alex Edler is a Liability topic was founded on a biased perspective from Drew is My Name, that Edler was a problem and needed to be excised from the team, post haste. It was already skewed in it's inception.
2. Edler's game against the Rangers was beyond anything he's done in the last two years. He was on and it was awesome. That has to factor in to the discussion as it proved that Edler wasn't a liability as he was huge in all aspects of his game.
3. The Liability topic is locked.
4. The defense is, too quote J.R.'s apt description, a fairly large mess. So for the defense to manage, along with Miller, to keep the Rangers to one goal, is something else. And Edler being the biggest piece of the defense, playing lights out, I believe warrants discussion. 

1. Yes, the OP had a totally skewed perception but there were plenty of measured responses.
2. We already knew Edler wasn't a liability and capable of playing well at times - that was the OP's skewed perception as we already mentioned.
3. It is locked, but we'd run out of ways to say the same things over and over again anyway.
4. It was a mess back then too, and it was pointed out how both depth and defensive make up is a contributing factor in how Edler plays, but that sometimes he can move past any issues and play instinctively regardless of any issues surrounding him.

EDIT: This is what I said in the other thread. Edler can get in his own way sometimes and (through tiredness or depth or chemistry or otherwise) he can have mental lapses. When he's confident and playing instinctively, he plays well.

[aGENT]

25 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

True. The defense not only lacks in cohesion, but a solid identity as well. When looking at the present state of the blueline, sans Hamhuis (get well soon Hammer!) it seems to have a sloppy, thrown together feel to it. And at times during the year has played as such.

That lack of structure directly leads to one ice results.

Individually, we have some good players but as a group, it's largely a mish-mash and lacking in some key areas. And with Hammer out that and the quality of players is only going to get worse.

I mean Edler/Tanev could be a great pair if Tanev had any offensive capability. But he doesn't. So instead of being a decent 1st pair they're a really good second pair. 

Then Hammer would be a great anchor for a second pair (when healthy) but has literally NOBODY to play with. If Sbisa continues to improve, he's an ok option to form a good shut down pair, but he's still playing on his off side then.

Personally, I'd love to see Sbisa/Tanev as our second pair moving forward beyond this season but that's going to require some serious magic wand waiving to get a 1st pair partner for Edler. There's one RH'd 1st pair UFA this summer Buff...though there is some LH'd ones (Yandle, Goligoski etc). 

That LH'd D are easier to acquire (and more plentiful in our prospect pool) and that Edler's likely to be past his prime before we're contending again are the two main reasons I'm in favour of moving our best D (Edler) for Hamonic.

You sign a Yandle, Goligoski (or even Hammer, though he's less ideal) as a bridge for the next few years to play with Hamonic, play Sbisa with Tanev and let Hutton continue to develop and fill in with injuries while letting Pedan (LD), Tryamkin (LD), Brisebois (LD) etc continue to develop as well as as whoever we draft this year and this D looks a lot better moving forward without getting in to what will surely be a ridiculous bidding war for Buff.

Yandle/Goligoski/Hamhuis, Hamonic
Sbisa, Tanev
Hutton, Bartowski

Pedan, Biega

Tryamkin, Subban

Brisebois, Neil

...etc, looks a hell of a lot better moving forward IMO. 

[PhillipBlunt]

6 minutes ago, Canorth said:

No need to justify. You don't answer to Elvis.

I know. But he asked nicely....

[Canorth]

NVM

[Positive Canuck]

Best game we've seen from Edler in ages.

Imagine if he played determined and hard like that most of the time ? 
 

 

[Mcfly]

...I was compelled by the catchy title... then surprised by the nicely articulated post and replies.

Good job o/p.

 

Edler needs some support.

Though with our new unfortunate Hamhuis problems, I'm more distracted with what will happen there...

[alfstonker]

1 hour ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Alex Edler has been considered the Canucks best defenseman by many within the world of hockey, most notably team president Trevor Linden. He has all the tools (size, a hard accurate shot, excellent passing) to be easily considered in the upper echelon of NHL defensemen.

However he also has moments (sometimes many games) where he plays as if those aforementioned tools are completely absent. He folds like a cheap suit in the defensive zone, looks lost in the neutral zone, and has issue holding the puck in the offensive zone.

Many fans, myself included, have derided Edler for his horribly inconsistent play and boneheaded passes that result goals against. He has been the topic of trade rumours galore.

And then the Canucks take on the Rangers. And Edler comes alive and dominates. When he plays a game like he did against New York, he becomes a total steal of a contract. He was defensively responsible, neutralizing the Rangers attack, and a constant threat in the Ranger's zone. He was every bit the top defenseman that some claim him to be.

But the fact is, as proven by seasons past, he will follow that game up with a few more decent showings and then he'll be back to inconsistent, sloppy play again.

Why?

Some say that he is playing above his pay grade, but when he plays like he did against the Rangers, I call horse manure on that claim.

Some say he is still reeling from the back injury he sustained in the past. Again I point to the Rangers game and how he handled his defensive assignments, and call BS on that one.

I think the team would be smart to invest in some counseling or psychological testing for Alex Edler to get to the heart of what his consistency issues are..

And for the life of me, I don't understand what his issues are. Is it motivational? What was it about the game against the Rangers that made Edler elevate his game to near elite status? How does Lidster tap into that? Why can't an adult male nearing 30 years of age be motivated enough to show the league how great a defenseman he can be on a consistent basis?

Mods, do with this what you will, but I thought that maybe a less biased discussion on the enigma of the team's defense wouldn't be such a bad idea.

That is why I have always supported him. He is way better than the Canucks fans think and if we were ever crazy enough to put him on the trading block, other BIG teams would be knocking down Jims door. It wasn't long ago when Tortorella all but ruined him Detroit were licking their lips, sniffing around and hoping to steal him away for a song if I recall.

JB changed all that when he said he had every confidence in him.

He gets worn down a bit when Sbisa is not there and all the physical side is down to him as well as playing big minutes.

[Shift-4]

I don't know why everyone keeps saying 'good for one game'.
I think he has been solid for four games now. Ever since his gaffe against the Kings I am been quite ok with his play.  And I am by no means an Edler fan.

On topic he has made me cringe more often than not during his entire career. He is overpaid and gets more ice time than he should. I would like to say I wouldn't miss him but it is hard to make that declaration when it isn't clear who would replace him. We don't exactly have a lot of D talent knocking on the door. 

I would much rather say that I just hope he continues playing the way he has the last few games.

 

[alfstonker]

1 hour ago, PhillipBlunt said:

But I have seen games where Shea Weber gets walked and scored on while he watches. I've seen Drew Doughty blow a pass out of the neutral zone, which resulted in a goal against.

Exactly, our fans are the epitome of tunnel vision. Everything the Canucks do is done in a vacuum and put under a microscope. It is plain to see most of them hardly watch the other teams in the league other than highlight reels. If they did they would see that other teams players are far from perfect.

[elvis15]

1 hour ago, Canorth said:

No need to justify. You don't answer to Elvis.

Sure, you don't have to answer anything - but then why create a thread meant for discussion?

If he has some new ideas, I'm genuinely interested. If he doesn't and we're just going to talk about the same points again, then you don't need me to restate my opinion on the subject again for the Nth time.

Edler is not Chara defensively and not Karlsson offensively. The people expecting him to be (or even to consistently maintain his highest possible level of performance each night) are always going to be disappointed. The rest of us know it's hard to find a D-man of his quality, let alone someone better.

[luckylager]

If he would put forth that kind of effort every game he'd deserve a raise, but he doesn't. Most nights he plays like he hit the bong pregame and between periods he fires up another bowl to stay level. Guess he skipped that ritual on Wed.

Watching him clear the zone or look up the middle of the ice to make that first pass is absolutely terrifying. How often are we left mouth agape wondering "what game is he watching?"

He was, without a doubt, so much more effective when paired with Erhoff, who I guess let him play "his game". Which as it turns out is not moving the puck up ice, or being aggressive, but passing behind his net to an actual offensive defenseman, playing sound positional defense and delivering the odd hit, but really trying to be in the right spot when the play came back at him.

There's a hole though- he always folds under pressure, he's just not mean enough to viciously and effectively clear the net. Whenever teams collapse down low on us, where's Edler? He's lying down on the ice waving his stick around, while Tanev goes puck hunting, making me yell at inanimate objects. 

Don't get me wrong, he is our best Dman, and no players are perfect, but his lack of consistent effort and full on stoner moments drive me a little nuts.

[Canuck Surfer]

2 hours ago, riffraff said:

We've been waiting for edler to be what we think/want he can be since he became a Canuck.

 

consistency separated the elite from the edlers.

 

in our team he's top pair.

 

in a contender he's second pairing.

 

that is the edler.

I agree consistency separates Edler from elite. That does not mean we should complain about what we have. He is top pairing on a substantially high number of teams. Including ours when it was a contender. And the NYR's game exhibited, noting he is still prime aged, that is still within his ability.

I'd prefer to discuss what keeps him from elite? And what keeps him from being consistent??

- Assuming he's healthy, he lacks elite speed and athleticism. He also lacks elite puck handling. He is still mobile. And he still has good, in fact better than average skills. He is still bigger, hits and punishes more than the average guy.  We just don't see Edler dangling guys, or blowing past them very often on the rush. When he does, it adds to the mistakes and the inconsistency. We're better off when he plays within himself. I also already mentioned he is big. But not Pronger or Weber big and punishing. What we have is just a very good yet not elite player. I'm fine with that!

- Like many he was wildly inconsistent when Tortorella played him on his off side. He would also be better if he could play the off side better. We don't have three bonafide NHL calibre right handed shooting D. So inevitably he still ends up there from time to time and makes mistakes.

- The suggestion was made that his back is no longer an issue? These issues never completely disappear. There are days, for all NHL'ers, for this and other reasons, you are just SORE. You might get walked by a forward on one of those days? And I also mentioned he was not quite an elite athlete?? That extra speed and strength keeps you effective versus exposed on bad days. And able to man handle or blow past guys on your good days.

- The Twins are elite because of their training as much as their skills. Babcock noted, was quoted at one time as noticing they just "decided to be elite." Bieksa is only still in this league, same with Tanner Glass in NY, because they sculpt their bodies like greek gods. Look at Edler in his t shirt at pressers. He does not look like the guy who will be most feared when he comes on the ice. Maybe now, at 29, with his back feeling mostly better he will adapt the championship training of the Twins, or Nick Lidstrom? Which will take his game up a level? The training that made Chris Chelios a beast still past 40?? Then maybe we will see a 220lb Edler that can blow past a few people, and manhandle even more? 

We'll have to wait and see.  Edler seems a bit too mild mannered to have the mentality to take over games, and put in the sort of work that makes it possible. For now, as above, I'm just very content with what we have.

 

 

[Canucklehead73]

Well Edler is not perfect like the OP writing this thread. Pretty easy to criticize from your couch I'll give you that.

He is still a great defenseman any team would covet. It is a fast game against elite level talent, one mistep ad your burnt. Especially late in a game.

As I said on the locked thread you have to take into account the talent of your opponent  and your team mates as well.

And you have to take risks to make plays and errors will happen even to the best players. Edler does far more better for the team than he does bad IMHO. ..

[riffraff]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

I agree consistency separates Edler from elite. That does not mean we should complain about what we have. He is top pairing on a substantially high number of teams. Including ours when it was a contender. And the NYR's game exhibited, noting he is still prime aged, that is still within his ability.

I'd prefer to discuss what keeps him from elite? And what keeps him from being consistent??

- Assuming he's healthy, he lacks elite speed and athleticism. He also lacks elite puck handling. He is still mobile. And he still has good, in fact better than average skills. He is still bigger, hits and punishes more than the average guy.  We just don't see Edler dangling guys, or blowing past them very often on the rush. When he does, it adds to the mistakes and the inconsistency. We're better off when he plays within himself. I also already mentioned he is big. But not Pronger or Weber big and punishing. What we have is just a very good yet not elite player. I'm fine with that!

- Like many he was wildly inconsistent when Tortorella played him on his off side. He would also be better if he could play the off side better. We don't have three bonafide NHL calibre right handed shooting D. So inevitably he still ends up there from time to time and makes mistakes.

- The suggestion was made that his back is no longer an issue? These issues never completely disappear. There are days, for all NHL'ers, for this and other reasons, you are just SORE. You might get walked by a forward on one of those days? And I also mentioned he was not quite an elite athlete?? That extra speed and strength keeps you effective versus exposed on bad days. And able to man handle or blow past guys on your good days.

- The Twins are elite because of their training as much as their skills. Babcock noted, was quoted at one time as noticing they just "decided to be elite." Bieksa is only still in this league, same with Tanner Glass in NY, because they sculpt their bodies like greek gods. Look at Edler in his t shirt at pressers. He does not look like the guy who will be most feared when he comes on the ice. Maybe now, at 29, with his back feeling mostly better he will adapt the championship training of the Twins, or Nick Lidstrom? Which will take his game up a level? The training that made Chris Chelios a beast still past 40?? Then maybe we will see a 220lb Edler that can blow past a few people, and manhandle even more? 

We'll have to wait and see.  Edler seems a bit too mild mannered to have the mentality to take over games, and put in the sort of work that makes it possible. For now, as above, I'm just very content with what we have.

 

 

I would say your first and third point there about sums it up.

 

i would add that at least from what I see he doesn't have that edge, hate to lose attitude.  The elite players have the ability to carry a team at times and to make those around them better....haven't seen that with Alex.

 

this all sounds negative of course. For the most part I like what he brings when he stays in his own which you refer to in your fest point.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, riffraff said:

I would say your first and third point there about sums it up.

 

i would add that at least from what I see he doesn't have that edge, hate to lose attitude.  The elite players have the ability to carry a team at times and to make those around them better....haven't seen that with Alex.

 

this all sounds negative of course. For the most part I like what he brings when he stays in his own which you refer to in your fest point.

Regardless of his negatives, we need him.  TO is paying a guy 7 mil a season for 6 more years who is no where near as good as Edler.  

[riffraff]

12 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Regardless of his negatives, we need him.  TO is paying a guy 7 mil a season for 6 more years who is no where near as good as Edler.  

I'm not a trade elder guy.

 

youre right. We do need him........to be consistent

[TheGrizzlyCanuck]

Okay so my understanding of Edler is that he plays to his limit. Every player is inconsistent. Karlsson has really bad games. I think he has a B+ understanding of the game offensively, a B level understanding of the game defensively. I think he is a relatively unconfident guy, very quiet, not a lot of swagger. I suspect he takes a lot of things personally. 

He is surrounded by a C+ support cast and plays to the maximum of his abilities and contextual limitations. 

I love Edler. Without him, we are a basement feeder the last two seasons.