Nikolay Goldobin | LW/RW

[ForsbergTheGreat]

2 hours ago, captainhorvat said:

Ill be pucken pissed if we had to waive Goldobin and guys like Gagner and Eriksson are still on the roster.

Yeah I completely agree, Eriksson is a little bit harder as waving him would essentially be us just throwing a crap ton of money in the garbage, it would be a hard sell to FA.

 

Gagner I agree with.  People like to use the “show up to camp” excuse but what are they really expecting? We are going to see fairly similar players to the guys we saw at the end of the season last year.  What would goldy need to accomplish at camp to earn a roster spot?  Lead our team in goals?  Unfortunately that’s a bit of fantasy world, very few decisions at camp are going to be black and white, where one player clearly looks superior over the other. Considering it’s camp, with limited player chemistry, limited player confidence, limited opportunity, and limited in game strategy. What we will likely see is two players who look fairly even, both putting up “some” offense, both having some lapses.

The reality is we’ve seen both players play in the NHL, we’ve seen what they can do and what they are limited to.  A 3 week training camp is not going to show us anything more that we don’t already know.  At this point it really comes down to the belief our coaches and GM have in either player, a belief I bet they’ve already made their mind up on. 

 

The real benefit of camp is seeing more from the players we haven’t seen play at the pro level.  How is Dahlen, Pettersson, and Juolevi going to stack up against NHL competition.  They are the ones that can earn spots through strong camp, by proving they can handle the size and speed of the game.  As I’ve pointed out before.

 

Goldi is at an almost identical spot that Baertschi was when we first acquired him.  The exact same age, almost identical games played and production and the same waiver expectation.  Canucks new heading into the the 2016 camp that Sven was going to make the team regardless of his camp, he was even a healthy scratch the majority of time at the start of the year.  Heading into this camp canucks likely already have there mind made up about what they are going to do with Goldi as well.

[samurai]

Goldy has to have a 'golden camp' or he will lose a spot.  It is now or never.  This doesn't mean scoring necessarily, just being involved and making a difference in all areas.   

[Kanukfanatic]

2 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Yeah I completely agree, Eriksson is a little bit harder as waving him would essentially be us just throwing a crap ton of money in the garbage, it would be a hard sell to FA.

 

Gagner I agree with.  People like to use the “show up to camp” excuse but what are they really expecting? We are going to see fairly similar players to the guys we saw at the end of the season last year.  What would goldy need to accomplish at camp to earn a roster spot?  Lead our team in goals?  Unfortunately that’s a bit of fantasy world, very few decisions at camp are going to be black and white, where one player clearly looks superior over the other. Considering it’s camp, with limited player chemistry, limited player confidence, limited opportunity, and limited in game strategy. What we will likely see is two players who look fairly even, both putting up “some” offense, both having some lapses.

The reality is we’ve seen both players play in the NHL, we’ve seen what they can do and what they are limited to.  A 3 week training camp is not going to show us anything more that we don’t already know.  At this point it really comes down to the belief our coaches and GM have in either player, a belief I bet they’ve already made their mind up on. 

 

The real benefit of camp is seeing more from the players we haven’t seen play at the pro level.  How is Dahlen, Pettersson, and Juolevi going to stack up against NHL competition.  They are the ones that can earn spots through strong camp, by proving they can handle the size and speed of the game.  As I’ve pointed out before.

 

Goldi is at an almost identical spot that Baertschi was when we first acquired him.  The exact same age, almost identical games played and production and the same waiver expectation.  Canucks new heading into the the 2016 camp that Sven was going to make the team regardless of his camp, he was even a healthy scratch the majority of time at the start of the year.  Heading into this camp canucks likely already have there mind made up about what they are going to do with Goldi as well.

Good post!  Baertschi realized he had to go to the tough areas if he wanted to stick in the NHL and he fought through the tough stuff and did so. We shall see soon enough if Goldy's will to stick is just as tough as Sven's was.

[samurai]

5 minutes ago, Kanukfanatic said:

Good post!  Baertschi realized he had to go to the tough areas if he wanted to stick in the NHL and he fought through the tough stuff and did so. We shall see soon enough if Goldy's will to stick is just as tough as Sven's was.

The problem with Sven though is that he cannot stay healthy playing the type of game he has to.   

[mll]

5 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Yeah I completely agree, Eriksson is a little bit harder as waving him would essentially be us just throwing a crap ton of money in the garbage, it would be a hard sell to FA.

 

Gagner I agree with.  People like to use the “show up to camp” excuse but what are they really expecting? We are going to see fairly similar players to the guys we saw at the end of the season last year.  What would goldy need to accomplish at camp to earn a roster spot?  Lead our team in goals?  Unfortunately that’s a bit of fantasy world, very few decisions at camp are going to be black and white, where one player clearly looks superior over the other. Considering it’s camp, with limited player chemistry, limited player confidence, limited opportunity, and limited in game strategy. What we will likely see is two players who look fairly even, both putting up “some” offense, both having some lapses.

The reality is we’ve seen both players play in the NHL, we’ve seen what they can do and what they are limited to.  A 3 week training camp is not going to show us anything more that we don’t already know.  At this point it really comes down to the belief our coaches and GM have in either player, a belief I bet they’ve already made their mind up on. 

 

The real benefit of camp is seeing more from the players we haven’t seen play at the pro level.  How is Dahlen, Pettersson, and Juolevi going to stack up against NHL competition.  They are the ones that can earn spots through strong camp, by proving they can handle the size and speed of the game.  As I’ve pointed out before.

 

Goldi is at an almost identical spot that Baertschi was when we first acquired him.  The exact same age, almost identical games played and production and the same waiver expectation.  Canucks new heading into the the 2016 camp that Sven was going to make the team regardless of his camp, he was even a healthy scratch the majority of time at the start of the year.  Heading into this camp canucks likely already have there mind made up about what they are going to do with Goldi as well.

The difference between Baer and Goldobin is their defensive game though.  Work ethic maybe too - Green said he had told Benning to trade for him very early on and said that he was the hardest worker he ever had in Portland.  The Sedins also gave him (and Horvat) their seal of approval re being true professionals.  On Goldobin Green says they don't have the same definition of what working hard means.  WD admitted that it's Weisbrod and Green that were in Baer's corner when they were thinking of moving on.  Not sure Goldobin has so strong advocates around.  

 

A few years back Shinkaruk was the leading scorer in Utica but Green told him that he had to improve his defensive play if he wanted to be recalled.  He gave him Baer as example saying that it's his defensive game that allowed him to buy himself time in the NHL.  WD said that he was surprised how good Baertschi was defensively.  He was saying that Baer wasn't doing anything offensively but that he wasn't hurting the team.  He explained that he was using Horvat to shutdown the other team's scoring lines and could play Baer there until he found his confidence.  He also admitted that injuries allowed Baer to get more time to prove himself than he would have had otherwise.  

 

There's also all that playoff history with Baer while with Goldobin it's a bit of an unknown.  Under Weisbrod, some teams were apparently considering asking the league to investigate his recall - Calgary was fighting for the final wildcard spot and he made a difference.  Is Goldobin going to jump in front of a slapshot? Can he bring his team back in the 3rd period when the momentum is with the other team and they are two goals down?  Those are all things Baer did and that had value because the hope is that he can do it at the next level.  Baer was a tremendous playoff performer - Oil Kings' coach Laxdal in the finals was saying he's showing why he's the best player in Canadian Major Junior.  Benning shared that opinion.  Goldobin doesn't really have that kind of background/goodwill.

 

Edited September 12, 2018 by mll

[filthycanuck]

8 hours ago, samurai said:

Goldy has to have a 'golden camp' or he will lose a spot.  It is now or never.  This doesn't mean scoring necessarily, just being involved and making a difference in all areas.   

I dont think he needs to have a golden camp, but he has to be noticeable. All things being equal, between Goldy Granlund and Gaunce, Goldy should win out unless he really bombs at camp. The other 2 had their chance as a full time NHLer, Goldy hasn't and has already shown that he can produce if given the chance.

[tas]

4 hours ago, filthycanuck said:

I dont think he needs to have a golden camp, but he has to be noticeable. All things being equal, between Goldy Granlund and Gaunce, Goldy should win out unless he really bombs at camp. The other 2 had their chance as a full time NHLer, Goldy hasn't and has already shown that he can produce if given the chance.

hahaha, that's so ridiculously backwards. 

[Ilunga]

12 hours ago, samurai said:

Goldy has to have a 'golden camp' or he will lose a spot.  It is now or never.  This doesn't mean scoring necessarily, just being involved and making a difference in all areas.   

I would love to see Goldy make it. Drafted him in fantasy a years back, that second round Russian risk.He does have the talent, however as others have pointed out does he have the grit and determination to succeed at the top level.

Edited September 12, 2018 by Ilunga

[ForsbergTheGreat]

10 hours ago, mll said:

The difference between Baer and Goldobin is their defensive game though.  Work ethic maybe too - Green said he had told Benning to trade for him very early on and said that he was the hardest worker he ever had in Portland.  The Sedins also gave him (and Horvat) their seal of approval re being true professionals.  On Goldobin Green says they don't have the same definition of what working hard means.  WD admitted that it's Weisbrod and Green that were in Baer's corner when they were thinking of moving on.  Not sure Goldobin has so strong advocates around.  

 

A few years back Shinkaruk was the leading scorer in Utica but Green told him that he had to improve his defensive play if he wanted to be recalled.  He gave him Baer as example saying that it's his defensive game that allowed him to buy himself time in the NHL.  WD said that he was surprised how good Baertschi was defensively.  He was saying that Baer wasn't doing anything offensively but that he wasn't hurting the team.  He explained that he was using Horvat to shutdown the other team's scoring lines and could play Baer there until he found his confidence.  He also admitted that injuries allowed Baer to get more time to prove himself than he would have had otherwise.  

 

There's also all that playoff history with Baer while with Goldobin it's a bit of an unknown.  Under Weisbrod, some teams were apparently considering asking the league to investigate his recall - Calgary was fighting for the final wildcard spot and he made a difference.  Is Goldobin going to jump in front of a slapshot? Can he bring his team back in the 3rd period when the momentum is with the other team and they are two goals down?  Those are all things Baer did and that had value because the hope is that he can do it at the next level.  Baer was a tremendous playoff performer - Oil Kings' coach Laxdal in the finals was saying he's showing why he's the best player in Canadian Major Junior.  Benning shared that opinion.  Goldobin doesn't really have that kind of background/goodwill.

 

 

I agree that Baertschi had a lot more people in his corner and that had a huge impact on his getting the opportunity here.  But the one thing to remember is the reason Sven got so little icetime in Calgary (which resulted in him requesting a trade) was because Hartley and Brian Burke didn’t think Sven was very good defensively. 

 

“There are three zones in the ice surfaces in this league,” Burke said back in 2013. “I don’t see that he’s learned to play and compete in two of them.”

 

Baertschi had to learn that side of the game while he was here, and that’s something that he became much better at in his 22-23 year old year.  The same age Goldy is today. 

 

“I think he’s really grown as a defensive player,” Horvat says of Baertschi. “It seems like he’s always in the right position defensively, and even in the offensive zone he’s ready to jump back onto defence. That’s something he’s really worked on in his game and it’s showed this year.”

 

As far as the playoffs I’m not sure what you’re referring to. IF you’re talking about his short call up, I don’t know if you can state he was the difference maker.  I remember quite well as I got to watch 3 of those 5 games live, it was exciting he was able to score, he played extremely limited/sheltered minutes and he was in no way carrying the team.  If you are referring to his Junior days, I don’t think that hold much water 4 years later, just as Cassels, who’s now off to Europe. 

 

The thing about green is he understands the difference between a 2 way player and a pure skill guy.  He understands confidence and the overall effect it has on a players game.  He knows that many skilled players need to put in the best positions to succeed and they have to be given time in those positions to allow them to get comfortable. 

 

But back to my point, there’s not one doubt in my mind that Green and JB already have a solid idea of what they are doing with Goldi this year.  If they believe he’s somewhat capable of becoming an effective top 6 winger in this league they will keep him. IF they don’t believe it, short of him putting up multi point nights in all his preseason games (which is an unrealistic expectation), he will be waived.  3 weeks of un-structured hockey isn’t what going to make or break Goldi’s Canucks career.

[Kootenay Gold]

I think the team needs to see a better 200ft game from him this year. Travis puts a lot of emphasis on that to all of his players. If he can show improvement in that area he will most likely make the team.

[aGENT]

I think it's a bit oversimplified to think management has already made a decision on Goldobin. By all means I'm sure they have a a firm grasp on his strengths and weaknesses. That's not the same thing though and I think it's a bit silly to think a 22/23 year old player can't/won't improve over a summer (with the right frame of mind, work etc) and earn his spot. He's neither penciled on or off the roster at this point IMO.

 

Whether and by how much he's improved those weaknesses will largely determine that. Not how many goals he scores in the preseason. Is he a dedicated pro off and on the ice? Did he put the work in over the summer and is he putting it in at camp, in practices and on the ice? Nobody's trying to turn him in to a bottom 6 checker but has he improved his ability to push his pace, attack and pressure etc? Or is he still floating 75% of his shifts away?

 

I'm sure he's one of many guys they're going to have a close look at to see if they've taken a step, or not. Guys that can't or won't, will not be here. At least not for long. 'Promising skill set' or otherwise.

Edited September 12, 2018 by aGENT

[Rob_Zepp]

Goldy has sufficient talent to be a top 6 forward for most any NHL team.   IF he does not achieve that level in Vancouver, or elsewhere, it will be based largely on his inability to fully understand the level of commitment needed to translate that skill to actual play every game, practice and even during his training.   Practice/train like you play is not just a cute slogan.

 

This year he has some strong competition for a spot including a couple of rookies with similar, if not better, elite skillsets.  IF those competitors bring a better commitment, Goldy may well be wondering on his bus rides in Utica if he really "got the message" or not.

[Kootenay Gold]

Travis seems to be a stickler for playing a complete game and that means at both ends of the ice; so Leipsic, Goldobin and Dahlen best remember that going into camp.

[mll]

3 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

I agree that Baertschi had a lot more people in his corner and that had a huge impact on his getting the opportunity here.  But the one thing to remember is the reason Sven got so little icetime in Calgary (which resulted in him requesting a trade) was because Hartley and Brian Burke didn’t think Sven was very good defensively. 

 

“There are three zones in the ice surfaces in this league,” Burke said back in 2013. “I don’t see that he’s learned to play and compete in two of them.”

 

Baertschi had to learn that side of the game while he was here, and that’s something that he became much better at in his 22-23 year old year.  The same age Goldy is today. 

 

“I think he’s really grown as a defensive player,” Horvat says of Baertschi. “It seems like he’s always in the right position defensively, and even in the offensive zone he’s ready to jump back onto defence. That’s something he’s really worked on in his game and it’s showed this year.”

 

As far as the playoffs I’m not sure what you’re referring to. IF you’re talking about his short call up, I don’t know if you can state he was the difference maker.  I remember quite well as I got to watch 3 of those 5 games live, it was exciting he was able to score, he played extremely limited/sheltered minutes and he was in no way carrying the team.  If you are referring to his Junior days, I don’t think that hold much water 4 years later, just as Cassels, who’s now off to Europe. 

 

The thing about green is he understands the difference between a 2 way player and a pure skill guy.  He understands confidence and the overall effect it has on a players game.  He knows that many skilled players need to put in the best positions to succeed and they have to be given time in those positions to allow them to get comfortable. 

 

But back to my point, there’s not one doubt in my mind that Green and JB already have a solid idea of what they are doing with Goldi this year.  If they believe he’s somewhat capable of becoming an effective top 6 winger in this league they will keep him. IF they don’t believe it, short of him putting up multi point nights in all his preseason games (which is an unrealistic expectation), he will be waived.  3 weeks of un-structured hockey isn’t what going to make or break Goldi’s Canucks career.

 

Benning traded for Baer because of his junior days.  In the post-trade he talked about how he scouted the 3 leagues and thought he was the best player in all three of them just a few seasons ago and could get him back on track. Many observers made that same comment because of how impressive he was in the playoffs.  I think it's why he got more time.  He was also coming off the Utica playoffs where Benning thought he was excellent.

 

As for the Calgary games wouldn't be able to say.  I remember his first shift he hit Byfuglien who fell.  I also remember he scored less than 20 seconds into the Phoenix game and the Saddledome was chanting his name towards the end of the game.  He had very high d-zone starts but my guess is that Sutter was trying to take him away from matchups.

 

Other GMs apparently thought that the Flames were trying to circumvent the recall rules to keep him up longer.  Those 3 goals he scored were important.  He did not carry the team but he showed he could score in pressured situations and he held his own defensively.

 

As for his defensive game, Portland liked to start him in the d-zone and Sutter felt comfortable enough to do the same in those must win games.  Laxdal in the playoffs finals called his defensive game outstanding with Johnston concurring that he was a good 200ft player.  Baer played a lot shorthanded - even 3v5 while Goldobin said he never PKed before Utica.  His D game was not NHL ready but Burke made it sound like he wasn't interested or didn't even try and that didn't make sense.  WD actually took a shot at Calgary media re Burke's comments.  It was also never a topic before Burke brought it up.  

 

Baer played a more complete game.  He was solid defensively in juniors and in the Utica playoffs Green had him out at the end of games protecting the lead.  He also had all that history with Green, Weisbrod but also Benning when he was scouting the CHL and then Utica.   Linden admitted that he was concerned but that it was Green and Johnston vouching for his character that reassured him.  Baer would have never got all that time if not for his defensive play and that goodwill he had accumulated in the past.

 

Green does understand confidence but it's about making the effort defensively re his comments to Shinkaruk.  It's Baer's defensive game that bought him time. He wasn't helping the team but he wasn't hurting the team.  If Goldobin is a defensive liability he's not going to get into games.  Green says he's not interested in players who can score but with whom you can't win.

 

[mll]

1 hour ago, aGENT said:

I think it's a bit oversimplified to think management has already made a decision on Goldobin. By all means I'm sure they have a a firm grasp on his strengths and weaknesses. That's not the same thing though and I think it's a bit silly to think a 22/23 year old player can't/won't improve over a summer (with the right frame of mind, work etc) and earn his spot. He's neither penciled on or off the roster at this point IMO.

 

Whether and by how much he's improved those weaknesses will largely determine that. Not how many goals he scores in the preseason. Is he a dedicated pro off and on the ice? Did he put the work in over the summer and is he putting it in at camp, in practices and on the ice? Nobody's trying to turn him in to a bottom 6 checker but has he improved his ability to push his pace, attack and pressure etc? Or is he still floating 75% of his shifts away?

 

I'm sure he's one of many guys they're going to have a close look at to see if they've taken a step, or not. Guys that can't or won't, will not be here, at least not for long. 'Promising skill set' or otherwise.

 

This was Poile just earlier this week on his number 1 prospect Tolvanen - I don't see it being any different on the Canucks. 

 

A lot of people want to grade him on whether he scores or not, but I think we're looking for his skating ability, his defensive play - as much as anything, I think a lot of times people probably forget that if you're a defensive liability, it almost doesn't matter how good you can be and how good you are offensively," Poile said.

 

[Nucker 67]

Does Goldobin and Leipsic need to clear waivers if they're sent to Utica to start the season?

 

If so, they will be on the Canucks (or traded). 

[aGENT]

5 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

Does Goldobin and Leipsic need to clear waivers if they're sent to Utica to start the season?

 

If so, they will be on the Canucks (or traded). 

Both require waivers.

 

Whether they are on the team will depend on their performance/improvement/competition, not their waiver status.

Edited September 12, 2018 by aGENT

[Alflives]

5 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

Does Goldobin and Leipsic need to clear waivers if they're sent to Utica to start the season?

 

If so, they will be on the Canucks (or traded). 

I don't think either of these two would be claimed, if we put them on waivers.  Maybe, once they clear waivers we might get something in trade for them.  I doubt they have any value right now though. 

[Nucker 67]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

Both require waivers.

 

Whether they are on the team will depend on their performance/improvement, not their waiver status.

I would think, though, that both players are young, very skilled and cost little. They would be scooped up fast and we wouldn't get anything in return. Whereas, a player like Gagner is a veteran player who makes over $3 million. I doubt any team will take that on.   

[aGENT]

Just now, NUCKER67 said:

I would think, though, that both players are young, very skilled and cost little. They would be scooped up fast and we wouldn't get anything in return. Whereas, a player like Gagner is a veteran player who makes over $3 million. I doubt any team will take that on.   

They would need to play pretty poorly to get put on waivers. If they play so poorly and get beat out by other, better players that they get put on waivers, they likely clear. And even if not, is hardly something we should worry about as we have other, better players...