ForsbergTheGreat Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 53 minutes ago, theo5789 said: Teams have to look at these two months and have to wonder if he's one of those guys that coast once they get the big contract. We have seen that time and time again. Just as it's too early to gauge whether his contract is worth it, looking at one 3 point night doesn't change anything either (Eriksson had a 3 point night not long ago too). Not at all, he's been playing decent to good hockey most nights and has just been a bit snake bitten. It's not that uncommon for players to get off to slow start when joining a team midway into the season, It takes a while for them to get up back into game speed. Honestly these last two months have zero affect on Nylander perceived value around the league. There's enough of a history on him to know what type of player he is. 53 minutes ago, theo5789 said: Eriksson was/is signed during a time when the cap space didn't matter, so even though he hasn't panned out as expected, it isn't costly. If Nylander doesn't produce, he's eating up prime cap space when we may need it most. Eriksson is signed until 2021 so it doesn't really matter when he was signed. Again, no one in the hockey world is concerned about Nylander, he was signed to 6 years, two month is extremely insignificant. At the end of next season if he is still slumping then you have a legit reason for concern, but 21 games... it's extremely premature. 53 minutes ago, theo5789 said: You would hope that Nylander surpasses Virtanen offensively, but one guy makes 6.9 a year (10 million or something this season) vs 1.25 a year and play completely different roles for their teams. Well considering one player had a 20 game head start it's something worth noting. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Sestito Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 4 hours ago, riffraff said: Yeah, Nylander has played like absolute garbage. Missing training camp and a third of the season will do that. He had two 60 point seasons preceding this one. He still has upside of being a consistent 30-30 guy for the next decade. I wouldn't want to deal our first for him until we see how the lottery shakes out, but if we can swindle something cheap if Toronto decides they don't want to wait for Nylander to get back on track and need the space now, I would be on board. Usually the top GM's who care a lot about asset management tend to back themselves into a bit of a wall once in a while. Celtics in the NBA are a good example right now, kind of mirroring the leafs. Really need to be able to make the right decisions of when to cut losses and move on if there's an opportunity presenting itself, rather than waiting for the asset to regain value. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crabcakes Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 20 hours ago, NewbieCanuckFan said: Ideally you want matched pairs but the Flyers had six lefties on the blueline (well left of Ryan Strome ) when they went to the finals once...granted having Pronger kind of helps. Babcock's preference apparently: lefties on the left, righties on the right 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 2 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said: I take Adrian Kempe, but I get your point. Lemieux is coming alive now too. He’s a guy to have in a playoff battle. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riffraff Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 45 minutes ago, Tom Sestito said: Yeah, Nylander has played like absolute garbage. Missing training camp and a third of the season will do that. He had two 60 point seasons preceding this one. He still has upside of being a consistent 30-30 guy for the next decade. I wouldn't want to deal our first for him until we see how the lottery shakes out, but if we can swindle something cheap if Toronto decides they don't want to wait for Nylander to get back on track and need the space now, I would be on board. Usually the top GM's who care a lot about asset management tend to back themselves into a bit of a wall once in a while. Celtics in the NBA are a good example right now, kind of mirroring the leafs. Really need to be able to make the right decisions of when to cut losses and move on if there's an opportunity presenting itself, rather than waiting for the asset to regain value. Right. but the beagle signing or as you say, the 30 year old signing, is and was still good for the Canucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 19 hours ago, Ryan Strome said: So kinda like Calgary trading Ferland acquiring a ppg centre and a young very good dman? LOL....I seem to recall another piece there but sure....well played, made me laugh! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 12 hours ago, mll said: Edler's agent warned that if they asked him to waive there is absolutely no guarantee that they will be able to re-sign him. He explained that waiving doesn't take into consideration that the player took a pay-cut to get a no-trade clause. Agent's job is to warn. Nothing here that isn't normal rhetoric. Comes down to where the player wants to be. Rest is speculative noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 10 hours ago, timberz21 said: LOL, one exception makes it a rule? Also, Muzzin was a 5th rounder, he was always a long shot and had to take the long road, not the case for Juolevi. If we follow your logic, we better start loading up on 6th/7th rounder....you know... because in 1998 Datsyuk was selected in the 6th round and in 1999 it was Zetterberg in the 7th. Not saying Juolevi is a bust or not, but if your hope for him not being a bust hangs on Muzzin's example...maybe he is a bust. So a 20 year old who played in the WJC last year and is currently injured and cannot play is a the same as guy who took four or five years to get to the NHL? Uh, ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 5 hours ago, oldnews said: What a bizarre straw man = and utter nonsense. I'm talking about Muzzin and this deal - and their need to make it - in addition to another move. Clearly you have no idea what I think of the how the Leafs are built. Well, clearly I don't as you have spoken. That'll show me to have an opinion on an opinion board. However, if the Leafs do crash and burn this playoff season and others that are able to have an opinion (no I of course) point to the Leafs not being a well-constructed "team", what type of man will that be? Man of steel? Certainly not straw any longer..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 2 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said: Well, clearly I don't as you have spoken. That'll show me to have an opinion on an opinion board. However, if the Leafs do crash and burn this playoff season and others that are able to have an opinion (no I of course) point to the Leafs not being a well-constructed "team", what type of man will that be? Man of steel? Certainly not straw any longer..... I'm not really sure what you're talking about Rob. Your principal points, not understanding why Toronto valued Muzzin, were that he was a former 5th round pick, and approaching 30 yrs of age. Nothing could be more irrelevent to a player's market value after 500+ NHL games than their draft position. I suppose the first things teams will reference when it comes to Tanev is the fact he was an undrafted free agent signing. Everyone knows Datsyuks and Zetterbergs have been drafted in late rounds - nothing is more irrelevent when it comes to their values as NHL veterans. You were grasping at "straws" from the get-go. And the fact he's 29 years of age - when you're talking about a team hoping to contend in the present and immediate future - again, you're grasping at the periphery, at best. That's why I think you're whiffing hard on the deal wadr. What I've pointed out in this tread is Muzzin's performance, his experience, the type of player he is - and why I think he makes a good fit - and an upgrade to that blueline - at reasonable market value. Good for you - you don't believe the Leafs have been built to win - but oldnewsflash - there's probably no one on these boards that has been more critical of that team's 'build' than I have, so spin off on that tangent all you want but you're barking up the wrong tree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cup2022 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 On 1/28/2019 at 4:27 PM, HKSR said: Wow. Ok the Leafs may have a shot at this silver cup thingy. Not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberz21 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 11 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said: So a 20 year old who played in the WJC last year and is currently injured and cannot play is a the same as guy who took four or five years to get to the NHL? Uh, ok. Exactly, It's not the same at all. But the other guy who quote you, wanted to pinned in the Juolevi thread your example of Muzzin for justifying he's not a bust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DownUndaCanuck Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 2 x former 2nd round picks (Durzi a point-per game OHL defenceman, Grundstrom a big physical winger + a late 1st round pick is a pretty decent haul for Muzzin. I don't think it's an overpayment because Durzi and Grundstrom may not pan out at all and the 1st rounder is going to be a late pick anyway, but the Kings did well here too. I think it's a win-win trade. Instant start of a rebuild for Los Angeles and Toronto adds a Cup winner and shutdown veteran defenceman which is exactly what they needed. Perfectly fits their needs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-P Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 2 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said: 2 x former 2nd round picks (Durzi a point-per game OHL defenceman, Grundstrom a big physical winger + a late 1st round pick is a pretty decent haul for Muzzin. I don't think it's an overpayment because Durzi and Grundstrom may not pan out at all and the 1st rounder is going to be a late pick anyway, but the Kings did well here too. I think it's a win-win trade. Instant start of a rebuild for Los Angeles and Toronto adds a Cup winner and shutdown veteran defenceman which is exactly what they needed. Perfectly fits their needs. Mostly agree with that, but feel maybe LA could have gotten a little bit more. Maybe a better return could also have convinced LA to take on Sam Gagner from Toronto's farm in the deal! Oh, wait... ;-) Sutter or Tanev for Liljegren and Zach Hyman or Liljegren and their 2nd maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 11 hours ago, Cup2022 said: Not 3 elite forwards - Matthews, Marner, Tavares A top offensive defenceman - Reilly A very good checking centre - Kadri And now a proven quality defenceman in Muzzin A winning coach - Babcock So 'not' a chance because why? Because they're the Leafs? I'm a die hard Canucks fan, but I also see what the Leafs have going for them... They have a legitimate shot at the Cup if they stay healthy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coryberg Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 16 minutes ago, HKSR said: 3 elite forwards - Matthews, Marner, Tavares A top offensive defenceman - Reilly A very good checking centre - Kadri And now a proven quality defenceman in Muzzin A winning coach - Babcock So 'not' a chance because why? Because they're the Leafs? I'm a die hard Canucks fan, but I also see what the Leafs have going for them... They have a legitimate shot at the Cup if they stay healthy. Don't forget a great goalie! .... but yeah I still think they choke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipBlunt Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 34 minutes ago, HKSR said: 3 elite forwards - Matthews, Marner, Tavares A top offensive defenceman - Reilly A very good checking centre - Kadri And now a proven quality defenceman in Muzzin A winning coach - Babcock So 'not' a chance because why? Because they're the Leafs? I'm a die hard Canucks fan, but I also see what the Leafs have going for them... They have a legitimate shot at the Cup if they stay healthy. It'll be interesting to see what they do about the right side of the defense now. Friedman stated in 31 Thoughts today: "4. Toronto will continue to survey right-handed defensive options, but are likely looking at a dollar-in, dollar-out scenario. While they do have room below the ceiling, they want to protect against potential Mitch Marner and Auston Matthews bonus money leaking into next year’s cap figure. (They need to save approximately $3.75 million.) Muzzin was attractive because a) he’s having a great season, and b) he didn’t cost anything from the NHL roster. That was not going to be the case for Brett Pesce or Alex Pietrangelo. It is believed St. Louis’s ask included William Nylander, which was rejected. GM Kyle Dubas wants to give this group a run." If that's the case, Dubas may need his head checked for not doing that deal. If you can get a player like Pietrangelo, and it costs Nylander, you do that deal, every day of the week. Having Pietrangelo and Muzzin as a top pairing going into the playoffs would be ideal. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 18 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said: It'll be interesting to see what they do about the right side of the defense now. Friedman stated in 31 Thoughts today: "4. Toronto will continue to survey right-handed defensive options, but are likely looking at a dollar-in, dollar-out scenario. While they do have room below the ceiling, they want to protect against potential Mitch Marner and Auston Matthews bonus money leaking into next year’s cap figure. (They need to save approximately $3.75 million.) Muzzin was attractive because a) he’s having a great season, and b) he didn’t cost anything from the NHL roster. That was not going to be the case for Brett Pesce or Alex Pietrangelo. It is believed St. Louis’s ask included William Nylander, which was rejected. GM Kyle Dubas wants to give this group a run." If that's the case, Dubas may need his head checked for not doing that deal. If you can get a player like Pietrangelo, and it costs Nylander, you do that deal, every day of the week. Having Pietrangelo and Muzzin as a top pairing going into the playoffs would be ideal. good to see the Toronto thinking is getting back to normal. I was worried for a minute there. That would have made TO the team to beat in the east imo, if they added those two d to the mix. The only simple "dollar in dollar out" scenario is trying to find a taker for Zaitsev (good luck). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Sestito Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 18 hours ago, riffraff said: Right. but the beagle signing or as you say, the 30 year old signing, is and was still good for the Canucks. I never referred to beagle specifically. Was moreso referring to potential future acquisitions, but sure, I can go to your strawman. Beagle is a a good fourth liner. He's trustworthy, still has some speed. By all accounts, a very good locker room guy. I like him. But he's 33. It's a lot of term and $ for a fourth line center of his age. Especially when you have a guy like Sutter who is probably the worst playmaking center in the league right in front of him on a high salary as well. Really limits the offensive production from the bottom six. But, if they trade Sutter, I'll have less of an issue with the $ they're paying Beagle. Just is redundant and a lot of money for two guys who fill similar roles with limitations offensively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riffraff Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 54 minutes ago, Tom Sestito said: I never referred to beagle specifically. Was moreso referring to potential future acquisitions, but sure, I can go to your strawman. Beagle is a a good fourth liner. He's trustworthy, still has some speed. By all accounts, a very good locker room guy. I like him. But he's 33. It's a lot of term and $ for a fourth line center of his age. Especially when you have a guy like Sutter who is probably the worst playmaking center in the league right in front of him on a high salary as well. Really limits the offensive production from the bottom six. But, if they trade Sutter, I'll have less of an issue with the $ they're paying Beagle. Just is redundant and a lot of money for two guys who fill similar roles with limitations offensively. Fair enough. i don’t think it’s straw when you vaguely say “30 year olds” of which you could lump LE, beagle and sutter. Of which, imo, beagle is the best value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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