[Discussion] Arizona/OEL

[PetterssonOrPeterson]

8 hours ago, mll said:

 

Pietrangelo was offered 8x 8M from St Louis.  He's looking for upwards of 9M on a 7 year deal.   Pietrangelo is 18 months older than OEL - born in January 1990 vs July 1991 for OEL. 

 

LeBrun believes that Vegas would be his preferred destination.  So does Friedman.  

 

If that's the actual term and money then pass. On both.

[Kobayashi Maru]

8 minutes ago, BigTramFan said:

I feel like a kid waiting for Xmas! Can't wait to see if this deal pans out and what we get! haha

I feel if this doesn’t go through at this point we’ll be pretty disappointed unless this is a decoy for another big D addition.

[rekker]

12 minutes ago, PetterssonOrPeterson said:

We also need to clear up cap space by giving up assets if we try to acquire OEL too, so what's your point? 

 

FYI, just because OEL said he "would" accept a trade to Vancouver doesn't mean Arizona is just going to hand him over. lol. 

They don't want our cap dumps for him, they want actual valuable assets for a trade. Young players/Prospects/Picks (likely 1st rounder). 

So that means we don't have 2 First rounders in the two upcoming drafts and they want to take away one of our top prospects on top of that? 

 

We also would be paying OEL 8.25 million until he's 36?

How is that much better than going after AP in free agency?

We wouldn't need to lose valuable assets via trade, you could at least be able to negotiate term, and he's a better player than OEL.

 

Mind you, I would prefer staying away from EITHER of them because each will cost a fortune.

In reality this team isn't even in any position to try and acquire these players when we don't even have our goalie situation sorted out yet.

 

However, if there is actual consideration for this team to acquire OEL then AP is a better option for me.

The only way I would want a first going Arizonas way in this trade is if LE is part of it. It's worth it then.

[Petey40]

Eriksson Sutter and a 7th for OEL, easy trade. I should be a GM 

[Me_]

I say stay the course.

 

Add Tryamkin and Podkolzin at the end of the season.

[Hogs & Podz]

The fact that this trade hasn't happened yet tells me that Benning and co are using their leverage to the max and standing firm.  If this trade goes down, I'm sure it will be a landslide win for the canucks management.  

[70seven]

4 minutes ago, Hogs & Podz said:

The fact that this trade hasn't happened yet tells me that Benning and co are using their leverage to the max and standing firm.  If this trade goes down, I'm sure it will be a landslide win for the canucks management.  

By many accounts, Benning has made his offer...  ball is in AZ court

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, PetterssonOrPeterson said:

We also need to clear up cap space by giving up assets if we try to acquire OEL too, so what's your point? 

We'd be sending cap back to ARZ.

 

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FYI, just because OEL said he "would" accept a trade to Vancouver doesn't mean Arizona is just going to hand him over. lol. 

No, we'd be surrendering some futures, just as we would, to clear cap for AP.

 

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They don't want our cap dumps for him, they want actual valuable assets for a trade. Young players/Prospects/Picks (likely 1st rounder). 

Again, we'd be sending both cap and youth/prospect/pick. Same as we'd need to move to clear cap for AP. If the asking price is too high, we simply don't do it. The whole point of this potentially being a trade is that he's put us on a very short, two team, list and ARZ has serious cash flow problems. The whole reason you do this trade is because/if you can get him at a discount via those assorted leverages.

 

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So that means we don't have 2 First rounders in the two upcoming drafts and they want to take away one of our top prospects on top of that? 

For clearing cap in exchange for a top pair D, yes. No guarantee its our first either. And with OEL, that's likely a late first.

 

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We also would be paying OEL 8.25 million until he's 36?

Yes.

 

Quote

How is that much better than going after AP in free agency?

A lot. Far friendlier contract to buyout in the last couple years if need be, 18 months younger, less mileage/injuries, better skater, $1m cheaper for the same term etc.

 

Quote

We wouldn't need to lose valuable assets via trade, you could at least be able to negotiate term, and he's a better player than OEL.

Yes, we would. We'd need to spend assets to clear cap to have like a what, one in ten or fifteen chance at signing AP? The term will be 7 years to land him. He's already turned down 8 with his 'home', cup winning team and will have multiple teams competing for him.

 

How much 'better' he is, is debatable and hair splitting.

 

Quote

However, if there is actual consideration for this team to acquire OEL then AP is a better option for me.

I really don't think it is. Equal or worse futures moved to clear cap, higher cap hit, less buyout friendly deal on an older player with more injuries and mileage and only marginally/debatably better player. His one real advantage is he's a righty, otherwise it's far from a 'better' route when you realistically break it down.

Edited October 3, 2020 by aGENT

[khay]

 

2 hours ago, Barry_Wilkins said:

Just a stray thought. It seems obvious, but the more I think of it, the more astounding it becomes in the course of Vancouver Canucks history:

 

In our 50 years, Hughes will quickly prove to be our best-ever defenseman. If we get OEL, even 3-4 years from now, he'll still be our 2nd best-ever Dman.

 

I'm not saying it's quite like Niedermeyer-Pronger on Cup-winning Anaheim, but when you've got two elite blue-liners playing 48-50 minutes a game combined, on 2 different pairings, it vaults your team into contender status, as long as goaltending is good and top two centres are good (and we check those two boxes big time).

 

Git 'er done, Jimbo!!!

Somehow people are so bothered by 8.5 mil cap in year 2026 that they fail to see this. There are many ways to the cup but IMO, two top pairing defencemen + a legit goalie is the best and most surefire way to the cup.

 

Until now, our only course of option was to just hope that Hughes becomes a true #1 and that we build deep enough forward depth backed by a solid goaltending. If you look at the past cup champs, the most common combination is 2 super star forwards + 1 top defenceman + solid goaltending surrounded by good depth. It's possible to fit in an extra superstar forward but getting a 2 #1 defenceman is nearly impossible these days.

 

Tampa: Kucherov + Point + (Stamkos) + Hedman + Vasilevskiy.

Blues: O'Reilly + Tarasenko + (Schenn) + Pietrangelo + the guy who thought he should have Calder last season and Petey taught a lesson or two in this post season.

Capitals: OV + Backstrom + (Kuzetsov) + Carlsson + Holtby.

Penguins: Crosby + Malkin + (Kessel) + Letang + Murray. 

Hawks: Kane + Toewes + Keith + Crawford.

Kings: Kopitar + Carter + Doughty + Quick.

 

 

We have EP + Horvat + (Miller) + Hughes + Demko/Markstrom. Even if EP reaches the level of Peter Forsberg, Joe Sakic, or Pavel Datsyuk, there is a drop off from our #1 forward to #2 forward after EP. And on top of that, Hughes has to reach the level of Leetch for us to even have a chance and that's if Horvat truly becomes the next O'Reilly and/or Boeser becomes a perenniel 40 goal scorer. 

 

Since the cap era began, icing two #1 defencemen has only been achieved by the Ducks in 2007. Maybe it's possible to argue that 2008 Red Wings came close two icing two #1s:

 

2008 Red Wings had Lidstrom (the best defenceman in the last 20-30 years) + Rafalski (an offensive machine on the backend) working with Zetterberg and Datsyuk.

 

2007 Ducks with Pronger and Niedermayer. And their best forward was 37 year old Teemu Selanne. He was still productive and was supported by pretty good forward depth including young Ryan Getzlaf and Corey Perry but that team goes no where without Pronger and Niedermayer.

 

====

 

2003 Stevens and Niedermayer. Of course they also had Brodeur.

 

2002 Red Wings with Chelios and Lidstrom.

 

2001 Avs had Blake, Bourque, and Foote.

 

2000 Steves and Niedermayer again.

 

1999 Zubov, Hatcher. Hatcher is more of a #2 but in the dead puck era, he was the prototypical big physical defenceman.

 

We could be the second team to ice 2 #1s since the Ducks. And that will more than make up for having one less superstar forward.

 

2 hours ago, rekker said:

If the Yotes have a choice between Rathbone and OJ I'm guessing they pick Rath because of OJ's injury history. Rathbone is a heck of a prospect. A package of Jake, Rathbone and a pick is pretty good.

Yeah it looks like we will have to give up one of the two. 

 

I'd say defence prospect (Rathbone or OJ) + lottery protected 1st rounder + a roster player (Jake or Gaudette) is a good deal for the both sides. The only question is if we can send Eriksson over by adding a sweetener like the second round pick in 2022 or 2023?

 

Honestly, that deal is better than the one we got from the Ducks in the Kesler trade. Sbisa was 6/7 defenceman with very little upside to become a top 4 + 24th overall + Bonino. At least Rathbone (and OJ) has top 4 potential, our 1st in 2022 should be in the 20-31 range + Jake (and Gaudette) is a bit younger than Bonino and has an upside to be a 20 goal scorers (or 50 point scorer if it's Gaud).

 

 

[khay]

44 minutes ago, Petey40 said:

Eriksson Sutter and a 7th for OEL, easy trade. I should be a GM for Arizona.

You didn't finish you sentence.

 

Yes, please become the GM of Arizona and make that trade for us.

[khay]

3 hours ago, buddyguy said:

We could see something like: Virtanen (or Gaudette), OJ (or Rathbone), a 1st round pick in 2021, and Sutter

Agree. But if they choose to trade Gaudette instead of Virtanen, I'd rather keep Sutter and find a way to send Eriksson.

 

Sutter is still a roster player that can play 3C.

[khay]

3 hours ago, buddyguy said:

Oh man I wish. If JB pulls off a miracle and convinces Arizona to take LE, Canucks fans will build a statue of JB outside Rogers Arena.

and inside.

 

There will be statues of JB all over British Columbia. Some millions of years later after the human race is wiped out and new life begins. They will see the statutes of JB all over BC and think that he was god to the people who occupied BC.

 

[Barry_Wilkins]

6 minutes ago, khay said:

 

Somehow people are so bothered by 8.5 mil cap in year 2026 that they fail to see this. There are many ways to the cup but IMO, two top pairing defencemen + a legit goalie is the best and most surefire way to the cup.

 

Until now, our only course of option was to just hope that Hughes becomes a true #1 and that we build deep enough forward depth backed by a solid goaltending. If you look at the past cup champs, the most common combination is 2 super star forwards + 1 top defenceman + solid goaltending surrounded by good depth. It's possible to fit in an extra superstar forward but getting a 2 #1 defenceman is nearly impossible these days.

 

Tampa: Kucherov + Point + (Stamkos) + Hedman + Vasilevskiy.

Blues: O'Reilly + Tarasenko + (Schenn) + Pietrangelo + the guy who thought he should have Calder last season and Petey taught a lesson or two in this post season.

Capitals: OV + Backstrom + (Kuzetsov) + Carlsson + Holtby.

Penguins: Crosby + Malkin + (Kessel) + Letang + Murray. 

Hawks: Kane + Toewes + Keith + Crawford.

Kings: Kopitar + Carter + Doughty + Quick.

 

 

We have EP + Horvat + (Miller) + Hughes + Demko/Markstrom. Even if EP reaches the level of Peter Forsberg, Joe Sakic, or Pavel Datsyuk, there is a drop off from our #1 forward to #2 forward after EP. And on top of that, Hughes has to reach the level of Leetch for us to even have a chance and that's if Horvat truly becomes the next O'Reilly and/or Boeser becomes a perenniel 40 goal scorer. 

 

Since the cap era began, icing two #1 defencemen has only been achieved by the Ducks in 2007. Maybe it's possible to argue that 2008 Red Wings came close two icing two #1s:

 

2008 Red Wings had Lidstrom (the best defenceman in the last 20-30 years) + Rafalski (an offensive machine on the backend) working with Zetterberg and Datsyuk.

 

2007 Ducks with Pronger and Niedermayer. And their best forward was 37 year old Teemu Selanne. He was still productive and was supported by pretty good forward depth including young Ryan Getzlaf and Corey Perry but that team goes no where without Pronger and Niedermayer.

 

====

 

2003 Stevens and Niedermayer. Of course they also had Brodeur.

 

2002 Red Wings with Chelios and Lidstrom.

 

2001 Avs had Blake, Bourque, and Foote.

 

2000 Steves and Niedermayer again.

 

1999 Zubov, Hatcher. Hatcher is more of a #2 but in the dead puck era, he was the prototypical big physical defenceman.

 

We could be the second team to ice 2 #1s since the Ducks. And that will more than make up for having one less superstar forward.

 

Yeah it looks like we will have to give up one of the two. 

 

I'd say defence prospect (Rathbone or OJ) + lottery protected 1st rounder + a roster player (Jake or Gaudette) is a good deal for the both sides. The only question is if we can send Eriksson over by adding a sweetener like the second round pick in 2022 or 2023?

 

Honestly, that deal is better than the one we got from the Ducks in the Kesler trade. Sbisa was 6/7 defenceman with very little upside to become a top 4 + 24th overall + Bonino. At least Rathbone (and OJ) has top 4 potential, our 1st in 2022 should be in the 20-31 range + Jake (and Gaudette) is a bit younger than Bonino and has an upside to be a 20 goal scorers (or 50 point scorer if it's Gaud).

 

 

Yeah, I always find it interesting when people say the team has to build "depth". But what does depth really mean? Often, it's just interchangeable pieces. Some players are a little better, some a little worse. And obviously, cap management matters a great deal.

 

But all the "depth" in the world means nothing if you don't have the crucial signature players to spearhead a title run. Elite players don't come around all that often. As mentioned in my first post, we've waited 50 years for a true #1 Dman. We didn't or couldn't draft one, didn't or couldn't trade for one, and couldn't or didn't get one as a UFA. Now, when we finally have one, and can add another, some or many fans are afraid of what we'll give up. A 1st round pick next year, if we give it up, will probably come in at around the pick 13-18 area. The "bird in the hand" maxim comes into play.

 

And, if or as we acquire an extra high-end player (OEL), it'll attract more true depth through preferred destinations of other players, whether through trade or UFA.

[Trebreh]

any updates?? im thirsty for any news lol 

 

 

[PetterssonOrPeterson]

32 minutes ago, aGENT said:

We'd be sending cap back to ARZ.

 

No, we'd be surrendering some futures, just as we would, to clear cap for AP.

 

Again, we'd be at sending both cap and youth/prospect/pick. Same as we'd need to move to clear cap for AP. If the asking price is too high, we simply don't do it. The whole point of this potentially being a trade is that he's put us on a very short, two team, list and ARZ has serious cash flow problems. The whole reason you do this trade is because/if you can get him at a discount via those assorted leverages.

 

For clearing cap in exchange for a top pair D, yes. No guarantee its our first either. And with OEL, that's likely a late first.

 

Yes.

 

A lot. Far friendlier contract to buyout in the last couple years if need be, 18 months younger, less mileage/injuries, better skater, $1m cheaper for the same term etc.

 

Yes, we would. We'd need to spend assets to clear cap to have like a what, one in ten or fifteen chance at signing AP? The term will be 7 years to land him. He's already turned down 8 with his 'home', cup winning team and will have multiple teams competing for him.

 

How much 'better' he is, is debatable and hair splitting.

 

I really don't think it is. Equal or worse futures moved to clear cap, higher cap hit, less buyout friendly deal on an older player with more injuries and mileage and only marginally/debatably better player. His one real advantage is he's a righty, otherwise it's far from a 'better' route when you realistically break it down.

Arizona doesn't want cap. That's the whole point they're trying to ship out OEL.

They've already said that everyone 25 and over is available for trade, so it likely indicates that they are looking for younger assets such as prospects and picks for their players in return. I highly doubt they would want a cap dump like Rousell, Beagle, Sutter...etc. even if they are packaged with a prospect and pick. 

 

Remember, Arizona doesn't need to trade him here. If Boston brings up a better offer, he could easily be traded there. They also don't need to trade him at all and can make other moves around him.

 

I didn't know Pietrangelo wanted a 7-8 year term. If that's the case then hard pass to him too. 

 

Fair enough, if the player (OEL) expresses interest a limited amount of teams (Vancouver/Boston) it certainly can handcuff Arizona and put the Canucks at a bit of leverage. However, it seems a lot like Arizona is waiting it out for him to expand his list. 

 

Regardless, that OEL contract will handcuff this team in the coming years.

It will all be worth it if the Canucks can win the cup, but when it gets to that 5th-7th year of that OEL contract, that's already looking like it will be a pain in the rear-end.

 

[JM_]

5 minutes ago, PetterssonOrPeterson said:

Arizona doesn't want cap. That's the whole point they're trying to ship out OEL.

They've already said that everyone 25 and over is available for trade, so it likely indicates that they are looking for younger assets such as prospects and picks for their players in return. I highly doubt they would want a cap dump like Rousell, Beagle, Sutter...etc. even if they are packaged with a prospect and pick. 

 

Remember, Arizona doesn't need to trade him here. If Boston brings up a better offer, he could easily be traded there. They also don't need to trade him at all and can make other moves around him.

 

I didn't know Pietrangelo wanted a 7-8 year term. If that's the case then hard pass to him too. 

 

Fair enough, if the player (OEL) expresses interest a limited amount of teams (Vancouver/Boston) it certainly can handcuff Arizona and put the Canucks at a bit of leverage. However, it seems a lot like Arizona is waiting it out for him to expand his list. 

 

Regardless, that OEL contract will handcuff this team in the coming years.

It will all be worth it if the Canucks can win the cup, but when it gets to that 5th-7th year of that OEL contract, that's already looking like it will be a pain in the rear-end.

 

AZ doesn't want long term cap. Short term is inevitable if they want a maximum possible return on OEL.

[Odjick the Warrior]

Arizona wants to be a $65 million budget team and with trading OEL and Raanta they are at like $68 million and still have Stepan to deal to a team like the Jets that badly need a 2C after Little is done. 

So I think it's now the Arizona ownership trying to get cash or draft picks from Benning and if the Aquilini's have money then use that money they keep when scamming their workers from their other businesses.

Edited October 3, 2020 by IjustNEEDaTROYgamble

[NHL'er]

Quote

[Rumour] Vancouver willing to move LOUI 

 

Hello there Arizona 

[JM_]

2 hours ago, Hogs & Podz said:

The fact that this trade hasn't happened yet tells me that Benning and co are using their leverage to the max and standing firm.  If this trade goes down, I'm sure it will be a landslide win for the canucks management.  

with Jim's history I expect the deal to be fair. Not expecting any sort of massive lopsided thing here. I did think it would have been done by now given we're just 3 days from the draft and this trade would set a ton of other moves in motion. 

 

But if this doesn't happen this is one serious case of blue balls for the fan base. 

[tas]

1 minute ago, Robert Long said:

with Jim's history I expect the deal to be fair. Not expecting any sort of massive lopsided thing here. I did think it would have been done by now given we're just 3 days from the draft and this trade would set a ton of other moves in motion. 

 

But if this doesn't happen this is one serious case of blue balls for the fan base. 

we're all responsible for our own expectations. assume that the deal isn't happening until pen's been put to paper.