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Green and his assistants - not the men for this job

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Dazzle
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49 minutes ago, The Lock said:

In my opinion, if Green gets fired, it'll be because we finished last or almost last in the standings. That's the only scenario I can really see this happening.

 

Even if we just barely miss the playoffs, it's such a weird year to begin with that I just can't see him getting fired for that.

I'm pretty sure he'll be let go when that happens. His contract is already up by then, which gives the Canucks a chance to look for someone different.

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9 hours ago, Dazzle said:

I'm pretty sure he'll be let go when that happens. His contract is already up by then, which gives the Canucks a chance to look for someone different.

I'm not so sure on that. In fact, given the shortened season and the pandemic, I think he'll be extended even if we fall short.

 

The real question really comes down to this: what are the expectations of Benning and the Acquilinis for this season? It's not up to us. It's up to them. If the expectations are low given how weird a season it is, then I'm sticking with my response 100%. If the expectations are like they would be in a normal season, then I think your response would have some merit.

Edited by The Lock
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2 hours ago, The Lock said:

I'm not so sure on that. In fact, given the shortened season and the pandemic, I think he'll be extended even if we fall short.

 

The real question really comes down to this: what are the expectations of Benning and the Acquilinis for this season? It's not up to us. It's up to them. If the expectations are low given how weird a season it is, then I'm sticking with my response 100%. If the expectations are like they would be in a normal season, then I think your response would have some merit.

Yep.  Plus the new guys - the ED and a team that's for sure going to have two more years of transition before the lineup is somewhat set for our actual window.   Any manager would see these as change management.   And a certain amount of slack has to be built into it.  

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2 minutes ago, Silky mitts said:

Lmao this is so predictable pointing fingers at green. Point it at the man who has been terrible at his job as gm aside from drafting .

Spot on.  Certain Canucks fans will do and say anything to protect Jim Benning.  It's quite hilarious.

 

Green is the problem after 3 seasons but Benning after 7 years "deserves more time"...Rightttt...

 

Makes you wonder...

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1 hour ago, PhillipBlunt said:

I can't see a scenario where Benning is spared, if the team doesn't do well this season. Six years is ample time for a GM in the league. 

Kind of the same situation though to what I mention earlier with Green I would think. What are the Acquilini's expectations in a shortened oddball pandemic season? Is it really all that realistic to treat this as a normal season or is more leeway given throughout the league? It will be interesting to see if we see as many firings as we normally do league-wide or if most people keep their jobs this season no matter what the outcomes end up being.

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1 hour ago, The Lock said:

Kind of the same situation though to what I mention earlier with Green I would think. What are the Acquilini's expectations in a shortened oddball pandemic season? Is it really all that realistic to treat this as a normal season or is more leeway given throughout the league? It will be interesting to see if we see as many firings as we normally do league-wide or if most people keep their jobs this season no matter what the outcomes end up being.

 

5 hours ago, The Lock said:

I'm not so sure on that. In fact, given the shortened season and the pandemic, I think he'll be extended even if we fall short.

 

The real question really comes down to this: what are the expectations of Benning and the Acquilinis for this season? It's not up to us. It's up to them. If the expectations are low given how weird a season it is, then I'm sticking with my response 100%. If the expectations are like they would be in a normal season, then I think your response would have some merit.

 

3 hours ago, IBatch said:

Yep.  Plus the new guys - the ED and a team that's for sure going to have two more years of transition before the lineup is somewhat set for our actual window.   Any manager would see these as change management.   And a certain amount of slack has to be built into it.  

A business is a business. I don't think fans are giving Benning much of a pass for being super tight at cap (pandemic) and the expansion draft (both of which no one could have realistically foreseen). This has led Benning to let go of players that he may have wanted to keep, including Toffoli.

I am pretty sure that if Green doesn't bring the team into the playoffs, he's gone. There is no "leeway" issue. Having to fire a coach means you have to compensate them if you change your mind. It's just too convenient to let him walk.

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2 hours ago, Dazzle said:

 

 

A business is a business. I don't think fans are giving Benning much of a pass for being super tight at cap (pandemic) and the expansion draft (both of which no one could have realistically foreseen). This has led Benning to let go of players that he may have wanted to keep, including Toffoli.

I am pretty sure that if Green doesn't bring the team into the playoffs, he's gone. There is no "leeway" issue. Having to fire a coach means you have to compensate them if you change your mind. It's just too convenient to let him walk.

I'm not talking about the fans. I'm talking about the people who are actually in charge hiring and firing. While the fans can make a difference, this forum is pretty evident that not all fans think they way you are right now either. Ultimately, it's the Acquilini's/Benning's decision on this process  Not yours. Not mine. Not the fans, as I've already mentioned.

 

So you say there is no leeway issue: prove it. I'm not taking just your word for this. I don't think it's as "obvious" as you seem to want to make of it. None of this is so if you're going to claim that you know there will be no leeway, you must have some sort of evidence, right? ;)

 

And for the record, I'm not saying any of this is set in stone, but this is also why I'm mentioning all of this. Just saying "Green will be fired if we don't make the playoffs" and "there will be no leeway" are just opinions. Not facts. Perhaps you're just trying to state your opinion and not set it as fact, which is fine, but it seems like you're claiming what you want as being what will happen and I think we both know how well that tends to go. lol

 

Also keep in mind that I haven't even mentioned my opinion on Green in all of this, mostly because I can see both sides where some people love him and others not so much.

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On 1/27/2021 at 6:29 PM, Alain Vigneault said:

We can sack Green, sure, but the composition of this team, outside of 5-6 players, is absolute trash, and I don't see many coaches doing much better with this team.  Green is not elite nor a great coach, but let's be honest, he's working miracles with what he has.

Constantly tinkering with the roster does have a high cost.  The system being deployed should constantly be adjusted to maximize the rosters' ability despite the talent.    

 

Not sure who but there is a coach out there that can probably get a different result with this roster - probably why Green is still unsigned.   Greens best days might not be with the Canucks but if he gets signed then all of this is moot; perhaps some tinkering with the asst (?). 

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7 hours ago, The Lock said:

Kind of the same situation though to what I mention earlier with Green I would think. What are the Acquilini's expectations in a shortened oddball pandemic season? Is it really all that realistic to treat this as a normal season or is more leeway given throughout the league? It will be interesting to see if we see as many firings as we normally do league-wide or if most people keep their jobs this season no matter what the outcomes end up being.

From Utica till now, Green has walked up the hill with these guys the entire time. It’s disappointing to me how Benning gets all the credit for this young core but Green is the guy in the trenches doing all the dirty work. Paid his dues as a player, coached his way through the minors. Answering to the media every night without throwing his players under the bus. I like Green and appreciate the living hell out of him. If you wanna know how hard it is to do what green has done ask the last 86 Oiler coaches. 

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1 minute ago, Convincing John said:

From Utica till now, Green has walked up the hill with these guys the entire time. It’s disappointing to me how Benning gets all the credit for this young core but Green is the guy in the trenches doing all the dirty work. Paid his dues as a player, coached his way through the minors. Answering to the media every night without throwing his players under the bus. I like Green and appreciate the living hell out of him. If you wanna know how hard it is to do what green has done ask the last 86 Oiler coaches. 

Green's been fine; it's his assistants that need to be replaced with someone who has a functioning brain.  I understand Green is a loyal guy but Baumgartner is singlehandedly destroying our defense with his complete incompetence.  He has no ability to adapt his system to account for different personnel, preferring to force new acquisitions, who are used to playing under coaches who are actually qualified to hold their positions, to buy into his system of allowing the opponent to shoot from wherever they like.

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17 minutes ago, Convincing John said:

From Utica till now, Green has walked up the hill with these guys the entire time. It’s disappointing to me how Benning gets all the credit for this young core but Green is the guy in the trenches doing all the dirty work. Paid his dues as a player, coached his way through the minors. Answering to the media every night without throwing his players under the bus. I like Green and appreciate the living hell out of him. If you wanna know how hard it is to do what green has done ask the last 86 Oiler coaches. 

And, to be fair, I think a lot of people look at what they see on the ice. If they don't like what they see and they can't blame a single player, they blame the coach: neverrmind a new season, nevermind a defensive/offensive/assistant coach issue, nevermind just having an oddball game: they blame the coach. And this makes sense in a way since I doubt most of the people criticizing the coach really have a grasp on why it might be the coach. They just look at it as "team playing bad must be coach". It's the easy way out. It requires the least amount of thinking. It's the path to least resistance.

 

Let's give an example: we need to work on defense. We absolutely do. However, we weren't supposed to have good defense coming into the season. Suddenly I'm reading it's the coaches fault after 9 games? The evidence really shows we just need better defenders overall given we weren't supposed to have good defense to begin with. Yet, the coach becomes the scapegoat instead. Firing the coach then doesn't solve that problem. Improving our defensive core however should. Now, one could argue that coaching systems can play an important role in that and absolutely that is true, but look at Tippett, a defensively minded coach and Edmonton's poor defense right now and tell me that exact same thing. lol Even if this is an issue, perhaps we should be going after Baumgartner instead of Green. He's the defensive coach, not Green.

Edited by The Lock
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On 1/27/2021 at 5:59 PM, Dazzle said:

This is not strictly about this game, but being outshot by the opponents (this game being the most obvious indication), is a long-standing issue that hasn't been addressed. There's a lack of adaptation.

 

Coaching is most definitely an issue

I've been saying this for 3 seasons now. The only reason Green has anywhere near a .500 record as head coach is due to the amazing draft picks Benning has brought in and the excellent work of Markstrom between the pipes. With an "average " lineup Green's coaching skills would see us dwelling  in the basement every season. 

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3 hours ago, The Lock said:

And, to be fair, I think a lot of people look at what they see on the ice. If they don't like what they see and they can't blame a single player, they blame the coach: neverrmind a new season, nevermind a defensive/offensive/assistant coach issue, nevermind just having an oddball game: they blame the coach. And this makes sense in a way since I doubt most of the people criticizing the coach really have a grasp on why it might be the coach. They just look at it as "team playing bad must be coach". It's the easy way out. It requires the least amount of thinking. It's the path to least resistance.

 

Let's give an example: we need to work on defense. We absolutely do. However, we weren't supposed to have good defense coming into the season. Suddenly I'm reading it's the coaches fault after 9 games? The evidence really shows we just need better defenders overall given we weren't supposed to have good defense to begin with. Yet, the coach becomes the scapegoat instead. Firing the coach then doesn't solve that problem. Improving our defensive core however should. Now, one could argue that coaching systems can play an important role in that and absolutely that is true, but look at Tippett, a defensively minded coach and Edmonton's poor defense right now and tell me that exact same thing. lol Even if this is an issue, perhaps we should be going after Baumgartner instead of Green. He's the defensive coach, not Green.

SImilarly, the team is underperforming, it must be Benning. It's an oversimplification as well.

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11 hours ago, Dazzle said:

 

 

A business is a business. I don't think fans are giving Benning much of a pass for being super tight at cap (pandemic) and the expansion draft (both of which no one could have realistically foreseen). This has led Benning to let go of players that he may have wanted to keep, including Toffoli.

I am pretty sure that if Green doesn't bring the team into the playoffs, he's gone. There is no "leeway" issue. Having to fire a coach means you have to compensate them if you change your mind. It's just too convenient to let him walk.

Willing to put your money where your mouth is? Let’s say, $100? I put $100 that Green will stay Canucks coach beyond this year.

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9 hours ago, RomanP said:

Willing to put your money where your mouth is? Let’s say, $100? I put $100 that Green will stay Canucks coach beyond this year.

Do you seriously believe that the clowns who get their jollies by crapping all over various members of the Canucks organization would actually put their money where their mouth is and pay up when they lose? Good luck with that. 

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1 hour ago, WeneedLumme said:

Do you seriously believe that the clowns who get their jollies by crapping all over various members of the Canucks organization would actually put their money where their mouth is and pay up when they lose? Good luck with that. 

Hey, I can only offer. Him keeping quiet only proves my point, I guess lol.

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I’ll give Travis Green credit for one thing and this is something that JD Burke pointed out on Team 1040:
 

As stubborn is Green is at times for not wanting players to play on their more comfortable off-wing (I.e. Benn, Schmidt, Virtanen), one thing Green has done really well is in recognizing when certain young players are read for a heavier load even when conventional wisdom says other wise.  People said Hughes wouldn’t be able to handle tougher defensive minutes.  Green disagreed and look what happened.  People said that Hoglander needed more time in the minors (a sentiment that I agreed with by the way).  Green disagreed and look at what we’re seeing now.  We’re seeing a young Hoglander kid catching people off guard with his compete level and ability to win puck battles.  The kid is smart and talented and is quickly earning his stripes.

 

Green has pissed me off a lot of times, but he’s done a lot of great things here as well.   Green gets the vote of confidence for me right now.

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On 1/29/2021 at 10:40 AM, Silky mitts said:

Lmao this is so predictable pointing fingers at green. Point it at the man who has been terrible at his job as gm aside from drafting .

Yes because acquiring guys like J.T. Miller, Tanner Pearson, and Tyler Motte have been terrible moves, while protecting the development of guys like Jacob Markstrom, Gaudette, Virtanen, MacEwen, Juolevi, Chatfield, and Demko was also stupid.   Or maybe, keeping Chris Tanev around to protect the development of young defensemen in our system when everyone was screaming for Tanev to be traded in 2016 was the height of stupidity.    Perhaps the stupidest move was allowing Hughes and Boeser to burn a year off of their ELC’s because there was clearly no benefit in doing that.

 

So yes - Benning is terrible while pundits on the internet are clearly much smarter than Benning and the management brass.  #Sarcasm

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