Finally dawned on me why we let Gaudette go for so little in return

[DSVII]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Exactly.   And the best comp we have, practically identical really.    Their Horvat is Larkin.   Holland was the cream of the GM crop for two decades.   Couldn't make it three in a row, paying the piper just like us.   And they at least had Bertuzzi and Mantha picks (MG gave us Hutton and Horvat...really this team couldn't draft worth sh!t until JB - have to go all the way back to ONE of Nonis drafts to find a good one, Edler etc.   That's a long time.    To me the rebuild became official when we traded Burrows and Hansen, and KB.   Four years is 50-100% faster then normal these days for any type of rebuild.   For a top team with zero recycling .... 10 years is probably a fair target.   EDM just made the playoffs for the second time since 2006.   Wow.  CAR missed 9 in a row.    NYR just did what we did in the Keenan era, their Sedins (acquired one from Linden trade) are Kakko and Laffreniere.   Nice to have guys like JT Miller to trade right?   Missed this year but let's not kid ourselves they are going for it like they've always done.   No patience in that market place for a tear down and rebuild like OTT is doing. 

We differ vastly from Detroit in the area that matters most when you are in the rebuild stage (will look even uglier if we prior years included). I agree we draft well, but we have not been leveraging our strengths, we've been undercutting it. We haven't been doing this even when the line in the sand was drawn with trading Hansen or Burrows. They were hockey trades for project players. 

 

 

 

Considering this is year 7, where 6 of the last 8 seasons were losing seasons and fans are still here caring about the team, this market could have stomached a rebuild had it been done earlier. 

 

 

Quote

OTT just missed too.   I actually have some prospect envy now.   That team is going to be stacked.    Again nice to have assets to get those picks.   We could do a Duchene deal with Miller i suppose ... but we also need him at least for now.    

 

Based on context, the Canucks were in for a very long haul, like other good teams that grow stale and claused up ... the piper has to be paid.   Figured realistically it would be parts of this core when they are in their late 20's and early 30's and parts of the next one, that would give us a chance at a cup again.   JB haters will freak out but history has repeated itself twice already, and it takes longer each time because we are competing against 31 and not 20 or 28 anymore.  So that's another 7-8 years.   

 

JB has moved quicker then the average, not slower.   Anyone who feels differently id suggest looking around the league more often and pay a little more attention.   The team JB took over, was a lot like an expansion team prospect wise.  Worse actually.    ATL got Healtley and Kovi.  And Stefan lol.   CLB... well how long did it take them to become relevant?   CLB barely is now.   ATL never was in ATL.   So take your 7 years and add 7-8 and that's a realistic view of when this teams going to make it to the final again.   It's also what the math says.  On average each team will make the final six times and win three cups in 100 years now. 

 

If this makes you a little sick to your stomach it should.   Send your complaints to Bettman  and the NHL.  Talents diluted, it really is.  At least under the cap every team has a shot which is a very nice carrot.   

 

Back to JB.   He's done a better job then average, proven he's at least an above average  rebuilder.   Don't care what anyone says i know he's a good drafter, because each year he's been here our pool improved above where it should have based on where he drafted.   ADP over each four year period is better then average.   Drafting around 8-10 but what he's produced is 2-4 depending on the year.   So like drafting 2-4 overall make sense?    That said it's still way too early to really know.    

 

Feel this core actually has a chance to contend if the cards fall into the right place.   Covid screwed him with the cap going flat, but only really screwed him the first two years of it.    The highest players get around 6, and both EP and QHs won't cost us the bank (yet at least).   Imagine if we signed them and THEN covid happened.   Lucky.

 

JB team has an excellent chance in their division to get the points to make the show during this teams early window.  That experience will be vital to when these guys are in their prime window.   Look at how many times it took WSH.  

 

St. Louis too.   PIT, ST. Louis,  Boston, WSH were the best teams the past decade (NHL.com did an article on this and showed why).   All went through a cycle age wise to get them there. 

 

Sorry for the long read.   Point again is that I believe that JB has sped the process up, and also given me at least, hope that this core can actually contend.  Big holes yet, we need quite a few things, one of them some nasty and size.  Podz should help in that regard ..6'4" 210lbs ... wonder if he looks like Linden out there lol.    We have very good odds of a rebound next season, and a long run of playoff games after that.    More reps better the chances.   I don't like the odds (3 cups a century), but do think JB has added a multiplier in our favour with his drafting and the fact his RFA deals have all been fair in context. 

Appreciate the read, just a few thoughts.

 

- Depending on how JB approaches free agency in the next two years, I'll argue he's setting himself up to pay the piper again. (when Miller/Bo go UFA) Again, I don't expect, based on history, that he'll get the most value out of Miller, rather it's re-signing him or trading him. He is setting up to be our Duchene pivot. But the way we've seen Benning approach this same situation with a UFA doesn't inspire confidence.

 

- I don't think we are like OTT is a comparable at all. They have shown a willingness to move a Duchene or Mark Stone level player to acquire assets. and they have the Melnyk handicap. Very unique situation. 

 

- I don't see any moves JB has done to accelerate the rebuild aside from sitting on his allotted draft picks and getting Petey and Hughes (even then he's batting .500 on top 10 picks). I think active trading away of assets during the retool has delayed this progress (those missing 2nd rounders + McCann + Madden + Forsling sting). I believe Benning is an average GM given the accolades of a good one (considering how often I'm seeing his name put alongside those of Sakic/Holland)

 

- Don't get me started on Bettman and the NHL, haha just seeing the league conspire against the 2011 team almost made me give up the NHL as a product. 

 

- I think let's see what Hughes and Petey get first because we call ourselves lucky haha

 

- Again, I think we have more in common with Columbus, New Jersey than Washington at this rate. We simply don't have the winning environment and the body of work these guys have and I don't see us set up for sustained consistent winning in the future, especially with the expectation that next year is a write off and the team losing valuable mentors in Tanev and Toffoli.

 

- We've already normalized that next season is going to be a losing one. Pit and Washington have 1st overall generational players to build around, St Louis and Boston have stuck to their identity through thick and thin and it feels like Nucks are still looking for theirs and we flip ours depending on whoever kicked our teeth in the most ('94/'11).

 

- The Columbus comparison is pretty concerning....they also traded their 1st, 2nd and went all in on a one and done playoff run while lost their starting goalie, top LW in Panarin and rental UFAs in Matt Duchene and Dzingel the following offseason (in our case, two rounds, UFAs Toffoli, Tanev, Markstrom) Now they are in limbo.

 

- Every team is as good as it's support staff, and the turnover of the Canucks in this department is concerning. Gilman, Malholtra, Brackett, Burnstein, Potentially Ian Clark/Green. Something seems off with the front office here. 

 

I would love for us to be there, but JB has yet to show he can put together a team in that same mold, and it's getting to the point now where the losses are making me concerned about the culture of this team going forward.

 

In any case, it looks JB is here to stay, so I hope you guys are right. But these are legit concerns. And if we don't see results soon, at least you don't have to worry about Benning haters, because the apathy in this fanbase will set in. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by DSVII

[JM_]

1 hour ago, DSVII said:

 

Agree on these points. 

 

The main reason many have lost faith in JB, he's not shown no signs even as recent as last offseason that he is shifting from this pattern of decisions in regards to his asset management, valuation and timing of his trades and pro-scouting. They are undercutting his greatest strengths at the draft.

 

Some may call that dead horses, but I'll call it consistency the last seven years, whether we were retooling or rebuilding. I haven't seen an argument for that addresses this shortcoming aside from dismissing it, name calling and pretending it isn't hindering this team. Thought he had taken a step forward from 2017-18 but he's always swung back.

 

He's basically a metronome. And that's probably why he's so polarizing haha. 

 

But yes, this also starts at the top, ownership, and that's even harder to find that GMs.

 

 

 

the only part I don't agree with somewhat is the ownership part. I just don't see the same level of meddling that others do, in fact Aqua seems like he's actually willing to let his GMs run with things with a lot of freedom. I have a hard time seeing where the Aquilini's have hindered a GM in something they wanted to do. 

 

I'm sure they set their priorities, e.g., like agreeing with the Sedin re-tool e.g., but once the direction is set I don't see the influence on the ice of anything outside of a plan. 

 

 

 

[aGENT]

3 hours ago, DSVII said:

especially with the expectation that next year is a write off 

 

- We've already normalized that next season is going to be a losing one. 

We've done what now?

[Dats hockey]

This trade looks so freaking bad! Like literally everyone I our bottom 6 when motte was out was literally a anchor that we ask guaddette to carry... no $&!# the man struggles this year

[alt kilgore]

4 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

the only part I don't agree with somewhat is the ownership part. I just don't see the same level of meddling that others do, in fact Aqua seems like he's actually willing to let his GMs run with things with a lot of freedom. I have a hard time seeing where the Aquilini's have hindered a GM in something they wanted to do. 

 

I'm sure they set their priorities, e.g., like agreeing with the Sedin re-tool e.g., but once the direction is set I don't see the influence on the ice of anything outside of a plan. 

 

 

 

 

Its impossible to know for sure how much interference an individual owner may have. We can only guess.  Obviously there is a sliding scale. Some owners can't help it. Some stay right out of it. Most, you'd think, will keep an arm's reach approach and only interfere when they see it affect their business.

 

All we can look at is circumstantial evidence.  And have a modicum of trust in reporters close to the story.   It was widely reported that Gillis was bent on a proper rebuild in 2013.  He could see the writing on the wall. But the Aquilini's were still high from the head rush of the 2011. No one said they weren't loyal bleeding heart fans themselves. They had convinced themselves that a really clever GM could stoke out another successful run and get that Cup that Vancouver fans, including them, felt cheated out of in 2011.

 

So, without any hard evidence, so I could be way off base, I think Aquilini prefaced his interviews with potential GMs with "Man it would sure be great we could watch this team in another great Stanley Cup run with this core group. If we could just retool a few pieces it seems possible right?.  Do you agree with that?  More importantly, do you think you have the capacity to manage that into happening?" 

So imagine you are in a position, to be offered, for the first and maybe the only chance at the job as the GM of the NHL team of the third largest city in the country where hockey is a religion?  What are you gonna say?

 

It sure weeded out Gillis and any other applicant that may have replied back similarly "I'll have to evaluate the team better myself first, but I think this team actually needs to find creative ways to get out from under some of the NTCs and move out valuable veteran assets and start to think more about collecting picks to fill our cupboards, and not have high expectations about any playoff runs in the foreseeable future"  But even dedicating say five long years of suffering until...gasp... around 2018, was too high a price for the Aqulinis.  The fans (actually themselves) just won't stand for it!

 

So maybe JB convinced himself that a retool on the fly was possible. Everyone loves a challenge. The temptation of the job was too great. And if he wanted the job, it was pretty clear what he needed to reply back.  That yes, it was possible, and he was the guy to do it. 

 

********

Another long post, dang it.

Intermission time.  Happy International Teachers Day!

*********

 

 

And its not that its impossible to build a team with a retool vs rebuild.  But its less predictable or stable than a traditional tear down and pick hording.  Everything has to go exactly right as you are balancing a lot of aging overpriced vets, maxed out cap. So who you decide to buttress them up with and how much you pay them become very very important decisions.  Turns out JB made bad decisions there.  LE, later Gagner... he doubled down with a new round of aging vets almost every off season.  Picks? Prospects? who needs them in the SCF!

 

Its not so much that the first retool attempt failed.  I was on board with LE at first too. I didn't really know much about him other than his success with the twins at the World Championship. Good enough for me, even though there was a quiet voice in my head wondering if the Sedin core really did have enough left in the tank. And even though the first own goal in his first game did not bode well, I was stoked in a giddy kind of way that this new management had as much faith in the team as a bandwagon fan in June.  Maybe Gillis was wrong about a new rebuild. These guys know way more about hockey and the team's state than I do. That's what I and a lot of fans were convinced of.

 

The doubt started creeping in after it was clear that 3 years into JB's reign, LE and later Gagner, Gudbranson, etc. were busts, along with any realistic hope of reaching the SCF anytime soon.  THAT is when, instead of firing Linden, who by all accounts was the last voice of reason left about building our draft pool, JB went all in on the Aqualini's pipe dreams. I presume in order to keep his job.

 

You combine a superfan delusional instant gratification owner with bad pro-evaluation scouting combined with over paying and over extending those misjudged players, while shedding young talent, and you are shooting yourself in the foot. Over and over.  Its like a circular firing squad where all the guns are aimed at the feet.  But the casualty ends up being more like shooting the skates out from the team on the ice.  These net-value losses are like a constant torturous drip for this team.  Trading value for less value. Losing value for nothing in return. Or not being able to re-sign value because of bad past subpar e-valuation. The latest drips are overpaying, over extending, Pearson, robbing the team of probably a million in valuable cap money for three years.  With a promise of being protected from the expansion draft on top of it.  Losing Tryamkin for nothing probably is his latest value loss.  On and on.

 

We are still a potentially good team with a solid core.  I will cheer for them.  I can't live in a shoulda coulda universe.  I can't fire JB.  Or find new owners.  Its like taking a bad or undeserved penalty on the ice.  You accept it and deal with it, and move on.  Even if the penalties against were by your own GM "Toffoli...Forever.  Because I ran out of time". I just think long suffering Canucks fans deserve better.

.

.

.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by kilgore

[spur1]

14 minutes ago, kilgore said:

 

Its impossible to know for sure how much interference an individual owner may have. We can only guess.  Obviously there is a sliding scale. Some owners can't help it. Some stay right out of it. Most, you'd think, will keep an arm's reach approach and only interfere when they see it affect their business.

 

All we can look at is circumstantial evidence.  And have a modicum of trust in reporters close to the story.   It was widely reported that Gillis was bent on a proper rebuild in 2013.  He could see the writing on the wall. But the Aquilini's were still high from the head rush of the 2011. No one said they weren't loyal bleeding heart fans themselves. They had convinced themselves that a really clever GM could stoke out another successful run and get that Cup that Vancouver fans, including them, felt cheated out of in 2011.

 

So, without any hard evidence, so I could be way off base, I think Aquilini prefaced his interviews with potential GMs with "Man it would sure be great we could watch this team in another great Stanley Cup run with this core group. If we could just retool a few pieces it seems possible right?.  Do you agree with that?  More importantly, do you think you have the capacity to manage that into happening?" 

So imagine you are in a position, to be offered, for the first and maybe the only chance at the job as the GM of the NHL team of the third largest city in the country where hockey is a religion?  What are you gonna say?

 

It sure weeded out Gillis and any other applicant that may have replied back similarly "I'll have to evaluate the team better myself first, but I think this team actually needs to find creative ways to get out from under some of the NTCs and move out valuable veteran assets and start to think more about collecting picks to fill our cupboards, and not have high expectations about any playoff runs in the foreseeable future"  But even dedicating say five long years of suffering until...gasp... around 2018, was too high a price for the Aqulinis.  The fans (actually themselves) just won't stand for it!

 

So maybe JB convinced himself that a retool on the fly was possible. Everyone loves a challenge. The temptation of the job was too great. And if he wanted the job, it was pretty clear what he needed to reply back.  That yes, it was possible, and he was the guy to do it. 

 

********

Another long post, dang it.

Intermission time.  Happy International Teachers Day!

*********

 

 

And its not that its impossible to build a team with a retool vs rebuild.  But its less predictable or stable than a traditional tear down and pick hording.  Everything has to go exactly right as you are balancing a lot of aging overpriced vets, maxed out cap. So who you decide to buttress them up with and how much you pay them become very very important decisions.  Turns out JB made bad decisions there.  LE, Gagner...then doubled down with a new round of aging vets almost every off season.  Picks? Prospects? who needs them in the SCF!

 

Its not so much that the first retool attempt failed.  I was on board with LE at first too. I didn't really know much about him other than his success with the twins at the World Championship. Good enough for me, even though there was a quiet voice in my head wondering if the Sedin core really did have enough left in the tank. And even though the first own goal in his first game did not bode well, I was stoked in a giddy kind of way that this new management had as much faith in the team as a bandwagon fan in June.  Maybe Gillis was wrong about a new rebuild. These guys know way more about hockey and the team's state than I do. That's what I and a lot of fans were convinced of.

 

The doubt started creeping in after it was clear that 3 years into JB's reign, LE and Gagner were busts, along with any realistic hope of reaching the SCF anytime soon.  THAT is when, instead of firing Linden, who by all accounts was the last voice of reason left about building our draft pool, JB went all in on the Aqualini's pipe dreams. I presume in order to keep his job.

 

You combine a superfan delusional instant gratification owner with bad pro-evaluation scouting combined with over paying and over extending those misjudged players, while shedding young talent, and you are shooting yourself in the foot. Over and over.  Its like a circular firing squad where all the guns are aimed at the feet.  But the casualty ends up being more like shooting the skates out from the team on the ice.  These net-value losses are like a constant torturous drip for this team.  Trading value for less value. Losing value for nothing in return. Or not being able to re-sign value because of bad past subpar e-valuation. The latest drips are overpaying, over extending, Pearson, robbing the team of probably a million in valuable cap money for three years.  With a promise of being protected from the expansion draft on top of it.  Losing Tryamkin for nothing probably is his latest value loss.  On and on.

 

We are still a potentially good team with a solid core.  I will cheer for them.  I can't live in a shoulda coulda universe.  I can't fire JB.  Or find new owners.  Its like taking a bad or undeserved penalty on the ice.  You accept it and deal with it, and move on.  Even if the penalties against were by your own GM "Toffoli...Forever.  Because I ran out of time". I just think long suffering Canucks fans deserve better.

 

 

 

 

 

You post and read these forums and you think the fans deserve better?

Ok. I think we have it better than most as I can see what is building here. 

[CanucksJay]

Gaudette was traded for peanuts and Virtanen may never play for the Canucks again... 

In hindsight, Toffoli is looking pretty good right now haha

[Fred65]

18 minutes ago, kilgore said:

 

Its impossible to know for sure how much interference an individual owner may have. We can only guess.  Obviously there is a sliding scale. Some owners can't help it. Some stay right out of it. Most, you'd think, will keep an arm's reach approach and only interfere when they see it affect their business.

 

All we can look at is circumstantial evidence.  And have a modicum of trust in reporters close to the story.   It was widely reported that Gillis was bent on a proper rebuild in 2013.  He could see the writing on the wall. But the Aquilini's were still high from the head rush of the 2011. No one said they weren't loyal bleeding heart fans themselves. They had convinced themselves that a really clever GM could stoke out another successful run and get that Cup that Vancouver fans, including them, felt cheated out of in 2011.

 

So, without any hard evidence, so I could be way off base, I think Aquilini prefaced his interviews with potential GMs with "Man it would sure be great we could watch this team in another great Stanley Cup run with this core group. If we could just retool a few pieces it seems possible right?.  Do you agree with that?  More importantly, do you think you have the capacity to manage that into happening?" 

So imagine you are in a position, to be offered, for the first and maybe the only chance at the job as the GM of the NHL team of the third largest city in the country where hockey is a religion?  What are you gonna say?

 

It sure weeded out Gillis and any other applicant that may have replied back similarly "I'll have to evaluate the team better myself first, but I think this team actually needs to find creative ways to get out from under some of the NTCs and move out valuable veteran assets and start to think more about collecting picks to fill our cupboards, and not have high expectations about any playoff runs in the foreseeable future"  But even dedicating say five long years of suffering until...gasp... around 2018, was too high a price for the Aqulinis.  The fans (actually themselves) just won't stand for it!

 

So maybe JB convinced himself that a retool on the fly was possible. Everyone loves a challenge. The temptation of the job was too great. And if he wanted the job, it was pretty clear what he needed to reply back.  That yes, it was possible, and he was the guy to do it. 

 

********

Another long post, dang it.

Intermission time.  Happy International Teachers Day!

*********

 

 

And its not that its impossible to build a team with a retool vs rebuild.  But its less predictable or stable than a traditional tear down and pick hording.  Everything has to go exactly right as you are balancing a lot of aging overpriced vets, maxed out cap. So who you decide to buttress them up with and how much you pay them become very very important decisions.  Turns out JB made bad decisions there.  LE, later Gagner... he doubled down with a new round of aging vets almost every off season.  Picks? Prospects? who needs them in the SCF!

 

Its not so much that the first retool attempt failed.  I was on board with LE at first too. I didn't really know much about him other than his success with the twins at the World Championship. Good enough for me, even though there was a quiet voice in my head wondering if the Sedin core really did have enough left in the tank. And even though the first own goal in his first game did not bode well, I was stoked in a giddy kind of way that this new management had as much faith in the team as a bandwagon fan in June.  Maybe Gillis was wrong about a new rebuild. These guys know way more about hockey and the team's state than I do. That's what I and a lot of fans were convinced of.

 

The doubt started creeping in after it was clear that 3 years into JB's reign, LE and later Gagner, Gudbranson, etc. were busts, along with any realistic hope of reaching the SCF anytime soon.  THAT is when, instead of firing Linden, who by all accounts was the last voice of reason left about building our draft pool, JB went all in on the Aqualini's pipe dreams. I presume in order to keep his job.

 

You combine a superfan delusional instant gratification owner with bad pro-evaluation scouting combined with over paying and over extending those misjudged players, while shedding young talent, and you are shooting yourself in the foot. Over and over.  Its like a circular firing squad where all the guns are aimed at the feet.  But the casualty ends up being more like shooting the skates out from the team on the ice.  These net-value losses are like a constant torturous drip for this team.  Trading value for less value. Losing value for nothing in return. Or not being able to re-sign value because of bad past subpar e-valuation. The latest drips are overpaying, over extending, Pearson, robbing the team of probably a million in valuable cap money for three years.  With a promise of being protected from the expansion draft on top of it.  Losing Tryamkin for nothing probably is his latest value loss.  On and on.

 

We are still a potentially good team with a solid core.  I will cheer for them.  I can't live in a shoulda coulda universe.  I can't fire JB.  Or find new owners.  Its like taking a bad or undeserved penalty on the ice.  You accept it and deal with it, and move on.  Even if the penalties against were by your own GM "Toffoli...Forever.  Because I ran out of time". I just think long suffering Canucks fans deserve better.

.

.

.

 

 

 

 

Thank you some common sense at last. It's not just if or how FA interfere but the course is set by the people he hires to run the club. In blunt terms FQ is after a yes man and the steps back, hold up his hands and utters "it's not me Jim has complete authority." JB wanted to take the next step in his career and likely this was the only chnace he would get. I don't blame him in that decission, but the club suffers because it follows the wrong bread crumbs. I doubt FA is going to change be it JB or A.N.OTHER  which does not paint a bright future for the Canucks. 

 

From a different forum  " no one wants to work for the Aqullini's. Word around the league now is it is impossible to work under them because they constantly meddle in the teams affairs"

 

 

[JM_]

36 minutes ago, kilgore said:

 

Its impossible to know for sure how much interference an individual owner may have. We can only guess.  Obviously there is a sliding scale. Some owners can't help it. Some stay right out of it. Most, you'd think, will keep an arm's reach approach and only interfere when they see it affect their business.

 

All we can look at is circumstantial evidence.  And have a modicum of trust in reporters close to the story.   It was widely reported that Gillis was bent on a proper rebuild in 2013.  He could see the writing on the wall. But the Aquilini's were still high from the head rush of the 2011. No one said they weren't loyal bleeding heart fans themselves. They had convinced themselves that a really clever GM could stoke out another successful run and get that Cup that Vancouver fans, including them, felt cheated out of in 2011.

 

So, without any hard evidence, so I could be way off base, I think Aquilini prefaced his interviews with potential GMs with "Man it would sure be great we could watch this team in another great Stanley Cup run with this core group. If we could just retool a few pieces it seems possible right?.  Do you agree with that?  More importantly, do you think you have the capacity to manage that into happening?" 

So imagine you are in a position, to be offered, for the first and maybe the only chance at the job as the GM of the NHL team of the third largest city in the country where hockey is a religion?  What are you gonna say?

 

It sure weeded out Gillis and any other applicant that may have replied back similarly "I'll have to evaluate the team better myself first, but I think this team actually needs to find creative ways to get out from under some of the NTCs and move out valuable veteran assets and start to think more about collecting picks to fill our cupboards, and not have high expectations about any playoff runs in the foreseeable future"  But even dedicating say five long years of suffering until...gasp... around 2018, was too high a price for the Aqulinis.  The fans (actually themselves) just won't stand for it!

 

So maybe JB convinced himself that a retool on the fly was possible. Everyone loves a challenge. The temptation of the job was too great. And if he wanted the job, it was pretty clear what he needed to reply back.  That yes, it was possible, and he was the guy to do it. 

 

********

Another long post, dang it.

Intermission time.  Happy International Teachers Day!

*********

 

 

And its not that its impossible to build a team with a retool vs rebuild.  But its less predictable or stable than a traditional tear down and pick hording.  Everything has to go exactly right as you are balancing a lot of aging overpriced vets, maxed out cap. So who you decide to buttress them up with and how much you pay them become very very important decisions.  Turns out JB made bad decisions there.  LE, later Gagner... he doubled down with a new round of aging vets almost every off season.  Picks? Prospects? who needs them in the SCF!

 

Its not so much that the first retool attempt failed.  I was on board with LE at first too. I didn't really know much about him other than his success with the twins at the World Championship. Good enough for me, even though there was a quiet voice in my head wondering if the Sedin core really did have enough left in the tank. And even though the first own goal in his first game did not bode well, I was stoked in a giddy kind of way that this new management had as much faith in the team as a bandwagon fan in June.  Maybe Gillis was wrong about a new rebuild. These guys know way more about hockey and the team's state than I do. That's what I and a lot of fans were convinced of.

 

The doubt started creeping in after it was clear that 3 years into JB's reign, LE and later Gagner, Gudbranson, etc. were busts, along with any realistic hope of reaching the SCF anytime soon.  THAT is when, instead of firing Linden, who by all accounts was the last voice of reason left about building our draft pool, JB went all in on the Aqualini's pipe dreams. I presume in order to keep his job.

 

You combine a superfan delusional instant gratification owner with bad pro-evaluation scouting combined with over paying and over extending those misjudged players, while shedding young talent, and you are shooting yourself in the foot. Over and over.  Its like a circular firing squad where all the guns are aimed at the feet.  But the casualty ends up being more like shooting the skates out from the team on the ice.  These net-value losses are like a constant torturous drip for this team.  Trading value for less value. Losing value for nothing in return. Or not being able to re-sign value because of bad past subpar e-valuation. The latest drips are overpaying, over extending, Pearson, robbing the team of probably a million in valuable cap money for three years.  With a promise of being protected from the expansion draft on top of it.  Losing Tryamkin for nothing probably is his latest value loss.  On and on.

 

We are still a potentially good team with a solid core.  I will cheer for them.  I can't live in a shoulda coulda universe.  I can't fire JB.  Or find new owners.  Its like taking a bad or undeserved penalty on the ice.  You accept it and deal with it, and move on.  Even if the penalties against were by your own GM "Toffoli...Forever.  Because I ran out of time". I just think long suffering Canucks fans deserve better.

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so for sure Aqulini is a fan, and that might play into his thought process, but I still believe once the goal is set he's pretty hand off unless there's a lot of money involved. And fair enough, its his $. 

 

I can see why something went sideways with Linden, he was pushing the re-tool as hard as anyone, and then comes and says, "um... well after 4 years we need to blow it up" and likely couldn't sell his version of it.

 

What I'm concerned with going forward is more deals with extra term for players that are pro-scouting misses. Even Benning supporters see that there is too much of that in Jim's history. 

 

I wouldn't ditch Jim for any GM just for change's sake, but if there's a better pro out there like a Lombardi, e.g., then yeah its time to move on. 

 

[runtzguy]

15 hours ago, canuck73_3 said:

@runtzguy I really don’t know why the plan is so hard for some here to grasp. The team was never going to go full tank with the Sedins nor did Gillis leave us the chips to go full rebuild to begin with to many full NTC and NMC to go all in even if they wanted too. 
 

Eriksson showed great chemistry with the Sedins on the international level so on paper it was a decent looking signing. At the time I thought it was 2/3 years too long. Didn't think he’d be awful all 6 years here.

 

The Sedins did not want to play elsewhere so we went with the retool and remain competitive strategy, because of this Bo has 2 playoff runs under his belt. The team has also not gone through the Buffalo and Edmonton hopeless decade of suckage as well. 
 

We have enjoyed some of the best drafting in franchise history and that is without hindering player development and relying on lotto wins.

 

And as I stated there was 4 years of retooling and 3 of rebuilding. I never said there was no rebuild just zero chance of one during the Sedin years and they earned that respect.  

First. We had several chips in Hamhuis, Hansen, Burrows, etc but Trader Jim decided to trade them when their value is low. So saying that we didn't is not factual. 

Second. Do you really think Aquilini cares about remaining competitive? It is about the $$$ and Aquilini was worried about what would happen to his profits if we don't make the playoffs. This is why Eriksson was signed because Aquilini wanted to milk every last drop of the Sedin era. Not because of respect and giving the Sedins the last chance to win a cup because if they really wanted Sedins to win a cup then they would have convinced the Sedins to go somewhere else cause there is no way we were winning any cups anytime soon at the time.

Finally, I think what irritates me ( and i think to most Canuck fans) is that Aquilini and Canucks management think the fan base are idiots. "Retooling" is just another word for milking the current era of players dry for every last cent before making the hard decisions. And because they didn't, we are now in a cycle of where we cannot take full advantage of young players ELC and bargain contracts like Miller and Horvat because management decided to "retool" and push the rebuild further and further into the future.

 

Now I don't even know if in 2 years time we can be competitive because Miller, Horvat and Boeser's contract are up and they will each require 7.5 million+ and then the year after that Petey and Hughes would be up from the bridge deals (bridge deals are usually 3 years) which would lock up even more cap space. 

[Bertuzzipunch]

Gaudette? Who dat?

[DSVII]

5 hours ago, aGENT said:

We've done what now?

We're not going to have an expectation to be competitive next year. Because the plan now is to compete in that 2 year window to make up for the offseason losses this year.

 

 

[24K PureCool]

20 minutes ago, runtzguy said:

First. We had several chips in Hamhuis, Hansen, Burrows, etc but Trader Jim decided to trade them when their value is low. So saying that we didn't is not factual. 

Second. Do you really think Aquilini cares about remaining competitive? It is about the $$$ and Aquilini was worried about what would happen to his profits if we don't make the playoffs. This is why Eriksson was signed because Aquilini wanted to milk every last drop of the Sedin era. Not because of respect and giving the Sedins the last chance to win a cup because if they really wanted Sedins to win a cup then they would have convinced the Sedins to go somewhere else cause there is no way we were winning any cups anytime soon at the time.

Finally, I think what irritates me ( and i think to most Canuck fans) is that Aquilini and Canucks management think the fan base are idiots. "Retooling" is just another word for milking the current era of players dry for every last cent before making the hard decisions. And because they didn't, we are now in a cycle of where we cannot take full advantage of young players ELC and bargain contracts like Miller and Horvat because management decided to "retool" and push the rebuild further and further into the future.

 

Now I don't even know if in 2 years time we can be competitive because Miller, Horvat and Boeser's contract are up and they will each require 7.5 million+ and then the year after that Petey and Hughes would be up from the bridge deals (bridge deals are usually 3 years) which would lock up even more cap space. 

So blow it up? We could get a kings ransom for Petey and Hughes and pretty good picks for Boeser, Horvat, and Boeser. Heck even Demko may fetch us a 9th overall.

[aGENT]

12 minutes ago, DSVII said:

We're not going to have an expectation to be competitive next year. Because the plan now is to compete in that 2 year window to make up for the offseason losses this year.

 

 

Yeah...that's not what that means or what happened.

[aGENT]

34 minutes ago, runtzguy said:

First. We had several chips in Hamhuis, Hansen, Burrows, etc but Trader Jim decided to trade them when their value is low. So saying that we didn't is not factual. 

What's not factual is rewriting history. Burrows and Hansen had next to no value after horrible seasons under Gillis/Tortorella. Benning got the team back to the playoffs and Burrows/Hansen values back up and moved them after.

Edited May 5, 2021 by aGENT

[Harold27k]

On 5/2/2021 at 6:12 PM, Alienhuggyflow said:

Man these TT takes are getting absurd. 

Let's look at things rationally.

TT was traded for with the expectation the cap was going by 5-8 million so right there anything that happened after is kind of moot. But let's say we signed him, before this season he had one season with 30 goals, his average is around 23, this season is a complete one off and going forward we have younger better options for the top six.

As for all the bottom six signed or claimed they won't be back next season and have no impact on the teams structure going forward.

Rooster gets crapped on but odd how we seem to perform better with him in the lineup but hey that doesn't matter only cap space right?

Beagle is done but refer to the above.

Gaudette is a tweener who sucks at defense and regressed a lot this season but just like any one Benning moves he's the 2nd coming of Christ the minute he's moved according to Benning haters.

Next season when we have Nate and TT is back to what he is a lot of crow will be on the menu.

Tyler wasnt traded he left as an unrestricted free agent, if you want to rebutt get your facts on

[*Buzzsaw*]

The whole thing about the Tyler Toffoli fiasco is that he should never have been picked up by Benning at the deadline if he wasn't going to be signed long term.

 

The Canucks were not a contender...  they were not a team which just needed one piece and could afford a rental.

 

They were still in a rebuild... so any piece they acquired should have been for the long haul... you don't trade away picks for a rental when the chances of going to the finals is low.

 

So this either was a case of Benning having a wildly over-optimistic opinion of the Canuck's playoff chances, or it was a result of pressure from Aquaman who wanted the gate from those playoff games.

[aGENT]

12 hours ago, *Buzzsaw* said:

The whole thing about the Tyler Toffoli fiasco is that he should never have been picked up by Benning at the deadline if he wasn't going to be signed long term.

 

The Canucks were not a contender...  they were not a team which just needed one piece and could afford a rental.

 

They were still in a rebuild... so any piece they acquired should have been for the long haul... you don't trade away picks for a rental when the chances of going to the finals is low.

 

So this either was a case of Benning having a wildly over-optimistic opinion of the Canuck's playoff chances, or it was a result of pressure from Aquaman who wanted the gate from those playoff games.

The plan was to re-sign him.

 

Then a global pandemic happened.

[Patel Bure]

On 5/2/2021 at 7:56 PM, linden17 said:

Yeah I mean he didn’t pull off some of the greatest trades in franchise history. Get the hell out of here. You’ve lost all credibility. 

He had some great moments no doubt (I.e. those trades that helped us for the 1994 run), but there were way too many wtf moments.

 

1) The Gretzky blunder as I mentioned.

2) The treatment of Pavel Bure from start to finish (which has been well documented).

3) Letting Ronning walk

4) Signing an aging Messier and then not signing Mogilny before the start of that first Messier season (Mogilny wasn’t signed until 8-9 games into the season when the Canucks had already fallen behind).

5) Staying too loyal to the 1994 core when the 96-97 season clearly showed that they weren’t “one piece away” and that significant changes needed to be made.

6) Hiring clowns like Tom Renney and Rick Ley to be coaches.

 

Like I said - Quinn had many solid moves here (I.e. drafting Bure), trading for Mogilny (which cost us Peca by the way), and making moves that lead to 1994, but his body of work as a whole as GM was sub-par.  That often gets overlooked in this market since Quinn was the greatest coach that we ever had and coached our most beloved team in history.

[wallstreetamigo]

3 hours ago, aGENT said:

The plan was to re-sign him.

 

Then a global pandemic happened.

More like $&!#ty cap management for years happened. Relying on the cap to increase every year is just stupid.